When you just can't afford it anymore

By far the person having the best time at a show is the amateur.

True ! And by far the happiest of those amateurs is me. Cost of horse $0, Cost of feeding horse ~$0. Chance of winning ~0 ! Way, Way happier than all those poor serions, stressed-out juniors, with the hopes and dreams of their parents, the reputations of their trainers riding on their backs, the many $1000s spent on them each year, their chance of going to Junior-Medal-Pony-Stirrup-OnceInALifetimeOpportunity Finals just one other kid’s rail away … And in the back there, a little old lady having the time of her life on an old rescue pony jumping her out of the tack and nailing every turn, laughing her ass off (and, on occasion, winning :D)

Of course, I gave up on my big-time kiddie dreams a hundred years ago when I realised I was quite remarkably ordinary, and would only ever be my own special snowflake. I probably earned more in a month programming web-enabled real-time derivative pricing software than many trainers earn in a year. And back to being 12 again, with My Own money, and a collection of the world’s best free ponies, I’d have to say - really ? Is spending everyone’s fortunes on a horse show REALLY going to make her happy ? Because it doesn’t seem to make anyone else happy, even when they do get there !

[QUOTE=KateWooten;5917686]

Of course, I gave up on my big-time kiddie dreams a hundred years ago when I realised I was quite remarkably ordinary, and would only ever be my own special snowflake. [/QUOTE]

This is probably the best line I’ve ever seen!

[QUOTE=ponysize;5917681]
They don’t usually work independently, most work for feed and supplement companies, etc.[/QUOTE]

Very true, I guess I had not considered that. I have to ask though, how many of those positions are available?

I am an Animal and Dairy Science major, applying to vet school in the fall. There are lots of choices for us. My back ups consist of Med School and a PhD. How is that a waste of time and money?

Starting salaries for a equine nutritionist with a PhD working for a large feed company is near 6 figures.

Start salaries for Vet Pathologists are 6 figures.

So what you’re telling us is that your degree qualified you to go to more school to qualify you to be employed.

That’s great if you want to go to more school, but if your plan was to graduate college and immediately become gainfully employed it’s frequently a different story - particularly if your goals are to work in the equine industry, directly with horses in particular, where a degree is frequently less important than experience.

That being said, I think it behooves most “up and coming” trainers to have a real, solid backup plan. One that includes an education in business and management, because if they want to run a business, the same skills apply in the equine industry as they do in an office.

[QUOTE=monday;5917418]
My Animal Science degree made me a highly recruited microbiology grad student and by far the most prepared in my class, having already taken Biochem, micro, and med micro during my Animal Science curriculum. For whatever reason, I had a much stronger science background that the other grad students who came in with biology or even microbiology degrees. Most of my graduating class went on to Vet school, although several went to grad school as I did, and others went on to make good money managing hog farms, working in Ag Industry, and and various types of research and lab techs.

From what I understand Virginia Tech is a strong school, I would be surprised if there were not more options for her, if those places she is qualified for are hiring. That is a big if though.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know if this is even relevant anymore as I haven’t read the whole thread yet, but in my vet school class, 31 of my classmates have an animal science major from undergrad and it obviously didn’t stop them from being qualified to become veterinarians :smiley: Basically my point is that an animal science degree is NOT a death sentence for employment, as evidenced by Emily, the post that I’m quoting, my vet school class, and I’m sure numerous other examples!

Right… but for those who do not want to continue schooling and racking up more student debt… what are the choices with an Animal Science degree? it’s almost like a pre-degree… to get you into another program.

I don’t know if this is even relevant anymore as I haven’t read the whole thread yet, but in my vet school class, 31 of my classmates have an animal science major from undergrad and it obviously didn’t stop them from being qualified to become veterinarians Basically my point is that an animal science degree is NOT a death sentence for employment, as evidenced by Emily, the post that I’m quoting, my vet school class, and I’m sure numerous other examples!

Um. But the thing is, they’re NOT qualified veterinarians.

They’re qualified to go to more school to possibly become veterinarians eventually.

I think OP, it would help you and your DD to separate the requirements for her future career from the obligations/trade-offs/negotiation of her current hobbies.

You kind of “agreed” I guess, to fund her hobby. She has enjoyed it, and has reaped many benefits. She has a lot of skills and had fun, made friends and got a taste of her dream. As a parent, you are responsible for being consistent in laying out your expectations and budget. Don’t feel bad for telling her you can’t afford to show. Lay out what you’re able to spend, empower her by involving her in the negotiation for a compromise. If the burning desire is to continue showing her favorite horse, then maybe the answer is to put a cap on the number of shows. Maybe it’s to stay at the current level. Sure, she’ll be disappointed, but if she’s intelligent and reasonable she will also understand that it is an expensive hobby and you are being a good parent by not overspending yourself into debt. IF she has a temper tantrum, oh well. Consider that a big flag identifying a GREAT opportunity to teach her the value of money, budgeting, saving. If she doesn’t understand this limitation at her age…then she’s got a bit of a hole. Disappointment, yes…that makes sense. Acceptance and respect for your decision…that is kind of a minimum requirement.

Now, for the career part…I’m sure all teenagers think it would be just super to stay on the family payroll and have mom and dad completely fund their post-secondary efforts until said teenagers eventually just pop into comfortable senior level positions, move into nice houses with attractive, wealthy spouses, and start bankrolling children of their own. That would have been pretty sweet! The reality is that in High School, most parents end up having to carefully go over exactly to what extent they are prepared to finance the career prep of their adult children. I had friends who were cut off at 18, I had friends who still received “spending money” on top of housing, tuition and books fully paid. Most of my friends (college, trade school and straight into workforce) had a situation that was somewhere between those two scenarios.

My scenario was like this. I was involved in Marching Band as a teenager, along with Rugby and a few other things. My parents funded those activities, but it wasn’t a bottomless wealth of cash. I’d LONG AGO given up on my dream of having a pony…mom told me when I was about 5 that they were very expensive and I’d better either marry rich or study hard and get a really good job so that I could buy one. By the time I was a teenager, my parents had a fully paid-off mortgage and no debts, and were no longer teachers but in Administrative positions in Education. Perfect credit scores and healthy retirement savings. We weren’t really poor, but we certainly weren’t wealthy…and the financial security my parents enjoyed was VERY hard won. They carefully went over every request made for funding, and I often worked off part of the value by doing extra chores at a pre-negotiated rate. My parents didn’t want me to get a job, they DID want me to excel in school (first) and my hobbies (second)…because my college fund didn’t amount to even one year’s tuition. I understood that my hobbies were not free, and that my parents did not have limitless budgets…and I was expected to deliver a few things in exchange for the freedom and privelege of participating in those activities. They were looking out for my future in that they supported the pursuit of post-secondary, by reviewing countless scholarship applications, University calendars…had countless discussions with me about what I wanted to do, what my plans for the future were. They 100% were ok with keeping the family pets (at that time an aged cat and aging dog) since I couldn’t take them with me. When they thought I might be figuring that the car they had purchased for my brother and I to share would be moving along to University with me…my Dad very quickly corrected my avoided topic…let me know that once I was out of the house, transportation was MY expense.

Bankrolling your DD’s current hobby as an investment in her future career as a horse pro is not necessarily the worst idea ever. It depends on how real her career prospects are. I would definitely separate it with her though, and let her know that you’re prepared to fund the hobby to $$$$ limit XXX…and if she wants to have additional funding in pursuit of her career, she’ll need to present a business case for you to consider.

When I was a young girl I had to beg and plead for years in order to get a horse. I finally did, nothing fancy, mind you, but I mucked stalls after school to pay the bills. It was nothing short of hard manual labor.

When I went to school, the horse was sold and I never picked up a rein again until I was in my mid 30’s. By that time, I could afford to ride and pay the bills and did everything I wanted to do. Now that I am in my late 40’s I realize that I can’t continue doing what I did for 10 years, in this economy, without being very irreponsible.

Riding is a luxury. You have to either have a lot of money or you have to be willing to work to pay the bills, or both. A life with horses is not a secure way to live unless you have a trust fund. I was taught as a youngster that money does not grow on trees. It still doesn’t and I still spend a lot of money on horses but as I get older I find it harder to justify the expense, esp now in this economy. Teach your daughter these lessons early on. It will save her a lot of pain and suffering.

I got my bachelor’s degree in biochemistry and molecular biology too. I was originally going to go into vet school but ended up teaching and training full time. This degree is VERY useful for going into grad/vet/med school but as is, a BS in biochem would only qualify me for basic lab work or a highschool teaching position.

If she is interested in becoming a professional, she needs to start working NOW. She needs experience if she wants to have a job right out of college. Going to college to only become a working student is not a great career plan. I would suggest she start by working for a barn as an assistant instructor or trainer assuming that she has the proper qualifications. That way, she gets a taste of what its like so that when she goes off to college she can make better decisions about what to major in and what career path to follow.

Personally, I started teaching lessons at a local schooling barn when I was a senior in HS, then continued to teach lessons privately and train/sell/lease horses while in college. By the time I was a junior in college I had enough of a clientele base to make the decision to go into the horse industry full time after I graduated rather than continue on to vet school. I also did a vet internship during that time which helped me make that decision as well (I decided I didn’t like veterinary medicine as much as training). However, I am very glad I got my degree, just in case!

[QUOTE=supershorty628;5917240]
I don’t know VATech’s curriculum, but I know at my uni, an animal science degree takes all the same courses as pre-med, with the addition of some animal-specific classes. At least at my school, there is nothing limiting about it. Just saying.[/QUOTE]

Yep. said person is “doing it wrong” if she has that kind of a degree and is working in a feed store. You can go do LAB WORK and make pretty darn good money with a Animal Science degree or similar degrees. Biology, Animal Science, ect. those kinds of degrees can get into a Lab pretty well in either the private or public sector.

[QUOTE=supershorty628;5917240]
I don’t know VATech’s curriculum, but I know at my uni, an animal science degree takes all the same courses as pre-med, with the addition of some animal-specific classes. At least at my school, there is nothing limiting about it. Just saying.[/QUOTE]

Ditto. Red mares, VT is an awesome school and their animal science degree is nothing to scoff at. I’m sure she is qualified to work plenty of places. And She probably is just filling her schedule - that’s what I did my senior year when I had fulfilled most of my credits.

Posted this before…

When I was about 13/14 or so, my Mom got sick of me whining about getting a horse and she sat me down at the kitchen table with a pencil and paper.

She said find out costs to keep a horse every month. Board, shoes, a little for the vet-and it took me a few days to find out those actual amounts, I really had no clear idea of actual costs. Then she had me add it up.

We took that total aside and she wrote down how much came into the house via paycheck every month. Listed the mortgage payment, average grocery costs, utilities, car, clothing, Dr visits and such. Added them up and subtracted from the total paycheck amount.

Then we compared what was left to what it would cost to keep a horse. Not even close. She didn’t have to say a single word, it was right there in front of me.

That was the best lesson I ever got in finances, cried for a week but never again asked for a horse. Money was just not there.

Far as working it off? Really, a school kid is not going to work off 1k or more for board and lessons a few hours after school and weekends unless they make many times the hourly rate of a full time groom, that is also reality. Plus the work off hours don’t help the BO pay the feed bill. That is reality.

Why are people suddenly bashing college degrees? The unemployment rate for college grads is 4.2% as compared to over 9% for non college grads…that’s regardless of major. Unfortunately, many states are cutting funding to colleges and the average cost of even a public college education has sky rocketed to over $17,000 per year. We have an education problem in this country and we need to fix it.

Unfortunately, right now, even new college graduates are having a hard time finding a job. Not everyone can major in a high demand occupation…if they did, the good old supply and demand problem would kick in. I remember when there was an over supply of engineers and not many jobs in the 70’s.

As for a horse related job, if you really love it, make sure you’re qualified to find another day job if it doesn’t work out. I don’t know too many people actually making a living in the business.

As far as paying for a hobby when you can no longer afford it (and face it, it is a hobby)? I don’t see how that’s going to work out positively for you. My daughter was quite good a a lot of sports, fortunately, or unfortunately for her, she didn’t have an Olympic Mom. We refused to spend thousands and the time required on ice skating, diving, riding or polo (she did participate in all those sports and others too). She survived nicely anyway.

[QUOTE=ponymom88;5917152]
If she was going to college I would apply for financial aid. Has anyone ever heard of anything for equestrians? Any suggestions/ideas are very greatly appreciated.[/QUOTE]

Which is why I’m not a professional horse trainer but a fabulously-educated citizen and a kinda happy white collar worker.

I read your post to mean that DD already knows a lot and rides well. She’s getting to the place where she needs a better athlete under her to get any farther in an obvious and public way. E. g. the child needs some kind of 3’6" hunter or eq horse. I’ll assume that you don’t need to own The Winner or The Easy Ride. But you do need the sorta-sound, maybe-a-tough-ride animal that can at least get into this ring where kiddo has a shot of being seen as the “better half” of this partnership.

If you want this, I believe you must have connections and some money in order to stay around the trainers and shows that seem important enough to you. It might get a little cheaper than what you are doing now, but it won’t (usually) become free for the kid and her family. With either opportunity, the rest is up to her to keep and grow.

If DD can manage to separate out the “I want this to be my career” from “I want to spend my life training horses,” there is a lot she can do now to make herself happy without necessarily giving up on the career goal.

Most of all, she can branch out. She should sit on anything she is offered. She should go work for a dressage trainer. IMO, great, dressage-based flatwork separates the men from the boys when it comes to legitimate horse trainers who can make enough of a living to stay in the game for a long time. If she gets the chance to learn from the guy who starts colts, makes cutters or reiners, she should do it. If she can teach some beginners, that’s good, too. Learning about conditioning from an eventer will serve her well… hanging out and asking questions at vet and farrier appointments is not wasted time… you get the idea.

That will give her the depth of experience she needs to bring as a pro. Riding all those horses and working for all those people in various disciplines will enlarge her tool box exponentially.

By the way, doing well in school and enjoying that should still be her “day job” until she finishes high school, if not a bachelor’s degree of some kind. IMO, you are doing her a disservice if you don’t make clear. To invest in your kid’s career dream to the point that you rhetorically poo-poo the basic education just about every professional is expected to have is closing off an avenue that’s difficult and expensive to re-open.

The best part is that if she always means to prepare herself to be a pro, she can still ride and train like one for the rest of her life. I got this from my junior career. I can choose and make up my own with minimal help. I know how to hire and fire the right pros for the horse. I ride better than some pros and I train better than even a larger set of them. Professionals like to ride the horses I have made or prepared for them. I have good relationships with horse people-- trainers, vets, farriers, BMs and such because I walk in with a lot of experience and an understanding of what they do.

She’ll do all right, even without the money. She just needs to put in time and a professional attitude to finding and using the opportunities that she can… even if you guys don’t know what those are yet.

Yup. Big business. Big. Cattle breeders make horse breeders look like impoverished backyard hicks. It’s really impressive.

For this kid’s sake, I hope you guys are right. Hearing stories of college lectures about breeds of cows or sheep isn’t very impressive. JMHO. I know another kid who spent time at William Woods, (he might have an associates in something) who isn’t qualified to do anything productive. Call it my personal pet peeve, but I have a very hard time with colleges convincing kids to go into serious debt for nice to have degrees.

As someone pointed out there are jobs for engineering/technical types. Those degrees don’t take as many brains as people think (trust me on this!LOL) just hard work. Just frustrates me to see soft (not trying to PO anyone, just happens) degrees pushed, and people ending with mountains of debt and no job because of it.

I didn’t mean to half hijack the OP’s thread; I just always have concerns when some kid, especially a girl, has delusions of future grandeur in the horse world or one of it’s related professions.

Why are people suddenly bashing college degrees? The unemployment rate for college grads is 4.2% as compared to over 9% for non college grads…that’s regardless of major. Unfortunately, many states are cutting funding to colleges and the average cost of even a public college education has sky rocketed to over $17,000 per year. We have an education problem in this country and we need to fix it.

I didn’t see anyone bashing college degrees - I know I wasn’t. In fact, I suggested the OP’s daughter get one.

But I also think - precisely for the rest of the reasons that you listed, that whole cost/debt thing - that we need to be really realistic about what those college degrees get us.

It is not beneficial for most people to go into debt to get a degree that qualifies them primarily to move onto more school, which is what happened in the example of the tech student with the animal science degree.

I know several “equine studies” grads that found this grievously disappointing when they went to find real jobs after undergrad.

Education needs to be better thought through. Can you AFFORD to pay for your bills after you’ve taken loans for both undergraduate and graduate school? What is the cost benefit of your education and how will you be funding it? What does it qualify you to do and what is the average salary in that field? Do you have a backup plan? This isn’t being mean or “bashing,” it’s asking real - and extremely simple - questions.

[QUOTE=smokygirl;5917808]
Right… but for those who do not want to continue schooling and racking up more student debt… what are the choices with an Animal Science degree? it’s almost like a pre-degree… to get you into another program.[/QUOTE]

Many of those individuals work within the land grant university system, as 4-H professionals. I know 4-H takes a beating on this board on a regular basis, but I know quite a few people (more than 10, that I know personally and well) who are employed, happy, maybe not making 6 figures but satisfied, contributing to society, and have the opportunity to seek higher degrees in their university system if they wish. Not necessarily working specifically/strictly with horses, but horses may be part of their programs.

Many go on to pursue higher degrees so they can take tenure track positions and stay in the university system - but they started out with just an animal science degree. Some of them choose to remain at that level of education/employment indefinitely… just like in pretty much any career field you could name.

Anyway… the animal science degree is not a career death sentence. If a young person was wavering between college or no college, and wanted to pursue animal science, I would definitely encourage them to get that degree.

I love Findeight’s advice. It’s a good lesson for anyone to learn… the earlier, the better… and applies to much more in life than the horse world.

Nobody is bashing Equine (or any other) degrees for those with some flexibility in what they will do with them.

I think most have had a real bad experience with those who expect it to lead to a RIDING job and have no intention of working in a lab or any other setting much less continue schooling. Not to mention running up 40k+ in debt for a job that starts at 16-20k a year (if and when it is secured) does not reek of good planning for the future.

[QUOTE=smokygirl;5917808]
Right… but for those who do not want to continue schooling and racking up more student debt… what are the choices with an Animal Science degree? it’s almost like a pre-degree… to get you into another program.[/QUOTE]

Just to quickly address this: Many graduate schools don’t cause you to rack up tons of debt. My Master’s degree included a stipend, classes were covered, and I had health care through the university. The stipend was $22500/yr so living with roommates and not spending much extra, I lived very reasonably for being paid to learn and get a degree. Its hard work, but well worth it. I had no loans or debt when I got out, due to the stipend and associated paid tuition. That was the program at NC State 10 years ago. I don’t know what it would be like now.

I was able to use that degree to get a good job in industry, which 2 years later paid for me to go back again and get a PhD. I had to work for them for 5 years after completion or pay it back, but that was fine by me. I was probably fortunate to have two graduate degrees and pay for neither (unless blood, sweat, and tears count), but it isn’t that unusual of a story either.

Grad school isn’t for everyone and I don’t advocate it as the right path in all cases, or even most, but it also doesn’t have to leave you in debt. Sorry for the sidetrack.

One other thought: While this probably doesn’t address the OP’s daughter since it doesn’t put you with horses, I know several government agencies and private companies that hire Animal Science students for generic “scientist” positions. Its more about the classes and training (biochem, genetics, organic chem, micro, nutrition, etc) than the actual degree. A quick search finds many positions that say “scientist - biology, chemistry, physics, genetics etc.” may apply.