When you Win but Don't Win Champion

Sometimes mistakes are made (as happens with anything in life haha) and placings are given to the incorrect horses/riders.
What should happen when someone is given Champion in a division due to a mistake and someone else actually won the Champion instead? What would you do if you ‘won’ Champion by mistake?
In terms of
What to do with the ‘prize’ (such as embroidered winning cooler)? (Take it from mistake rider and give it to correct rider (what if horse show is over and rider has already left), let mistake rider keep it and make another for real winner, leave it with the mistake rider)
Especially if mistake rider has left already, do you tell them they did not win it? Do you tell the trainer/parent and let them decide if the student should know?
If you don’t tell the mistake rider, what if they decide to sell said horse and use it winning Champion as a selling point when that isn’t actually true?
If YOU are mistake rider, do you not want prize because you didn’t truly earn it? Do you still keep the prize?

I’ve only seen Champion given out incorrectly once, so I’m not sure if there are ‘rules’ or procedures that are often followed in this instance so was curious about what would or should (or would you like to see) happen?

If I won champion and knew that I wasn’t supposed to I would give the prizes etc to the correct rider or persons in charge of prizes at the show.

I had a rider win a local medal finals. Ribbons, trophy, victory gallop, the whole bit. I got a call the next day that there had been a mistake and she did not win it and she had to give everything back. It happens.

THanks for the reply.
As an add on question. What if the mistake rider was a young kid? Does this make a difference to whether you tell them and/or take the prizes away?

[QUOTE=Release First;7238025]
I had a rider win a local medal finals. Ribbons, trophy, victory gallop, the whole bit. I got a call the next day that there had been a mistake and she did not win it and she had to give everything back. It happens.[/QUOTE]

So there was a rule or standing procedure at that show that if given incorrectly it is taken back and given to correct rider? Is there or do you think there should be a rule in regards to this at all shows?

I won a zone dressage thing, but the show management gave all the swag to the person who won the second class of the two that were supposed to count. I think I ultimately got everything I was supposed to get, some the day of the show because they had extras and they felt bad and some later (the ribbon, the custom prize, etc.) I don’t believe they took anything away from the other person, who had left by the time the mistake was discovered. Then there were a couple of days when they verified that I had really won. This was a dressage show run by Dick and Jane Brown who probably paid for some of the replacements out of their own pocket. They were very gracious about the whole thing. The only thing I never got back was the mention in the COTH article on the event as the results must have gotten sent out before everything got sorted out.

I think a lot depends on the circumstances and the timing. Mistake by show management and the person already left with the loot, maybe you tell them and see if they offer to return it (especially if we’re talking a cooler or something that will take some time to replace), which would be the classy thing to do. Someone who went in the class and wasn’t eligible for it? Then I’d get more demanding about getting everything back.

I had that happen this spring for a Reserve. Since I knew the rider who got the reserve incorrectly was a teen & it wasn’t going to matter to me for year end points, etc. I just left it alone.

Moral of the story: Make sure that the person calculating the points knows what they are doing, and that they have proper charts to do it with.

Generally, any rating organization will receive the corrected results for point purposes and apply the points to the correct horse/rider and take care of contacting the incorrect rider and requesting they return any prizes.

If it’s a completely unrated local affiliated with nothing, they can do whatever they want. One would hope that ethics prevail and any prizes would be returned.

Outside of Leadline if the kids want to really horse show where they do keep score and not everybody gets a ribbon? They should understand. It’s a tough lesson but an important one, a parental teaching moment about sportsmanship- something sadly lacking these days of entitlement- you really didn’t win it and it’s not right to keep it.

I’d give it all back…and if they’ve already left their trainer should be contacted and advised of what’s happened and the request to return it should be made. Nothing wrong with a kid learning that mistakes are made and sometimes it’s not to your benefit! You’d think though, that they’d realize there’d probably been a mistake or were the classes that close for the whole division? I was once awarded a champion prize that I was sure I didn’t win so I went to the show office (trainer agreed with me) to double check the points…I was right, I should’ve got reserve so I handed the prizes back!

[QUOTE=Peggy;7238039]
I won a zone dressage thing, but the show management gave all the swag to the person who won the second class of the two that were supposed to count. I think I ultimately got everything I was supposed to get, some the day of the show because they had extras and they felt bad and some later (the ribbon, the custom prize, etc.) I don’t believe they took anything away from the other person, who had left by the time the mistake was discovered.

<snip>

I think a lot depends on the circumstances and the timing. Mistake by show management and the person already left with the loot, maybe you tell them and see if they offer to return it (especially if we’re talking a cooler or something that will take some time to replace), which would be the classy thing to do. Someone who went in the class and wasn’t eligible for it? Then I’d get more demanding about getting everything back.[/QUOTE]

If I make a mistake, I go with the route of not taking anything away from the mistake rider and making the correct rider whole by giving them what was due.

If the rider was ineligible to compete in something, I request prizes back.

I did have a friend whose horse won a year end cooler, big old ribbon, etc and it was a mistake. A few weeks later, the association wanted everything back, and contacted my trainer. She basically said to contact the owner and ask for it themselves. :slight_smile: :winkgrin: This was a once in a lifetime thing for the owner and would never, ever be close to happening again and my trainer wasn’t going to be the kill joy. Association rep was more then welcome to make the call and correct it. I don’t really know the outcome, but I don’t think they got the cooler back. :smiley:

Mistakes are sometimes made, even when the best of systems is in place…Sometimes it isn’t the fault of the point keeper, even doing their best, anyone along the chain of responsibility can drop the ball (:ambivalence: been there done that, just this past weekend–thankfully I was questioned about it, and was able to remedy the error).

As far as the prizes on the day, shows normally have duplicates, and point charts can be fixed. If it’s a year end award, hopefully redundancies in the system are in place to safeguard against mistakes and advance notice makes it more unlikely that a mix up will occur. Either way, all that can be done is to try and make things right in the end, even if it means eating humble pie.

It’s unfortunate to have to go back and re-do things, make that dreaded phone call and disappoint someone, but it’s the right thing, and way better than giving the blank stare and saying “there’s nothing to be done.” I think little kids are tougher and more fair than we give them credit for; experiencing a mix up such as described might at some point make them better able to stand up and admit their own mistakes later on, or persist in trying to address a wrong when they believe they’re right.

This situation (sort of) happened to me 15+ years ago. Though it wasn’t a horse show!

I took my Border Collie to a Cattle Dog Trials at a friend’s cattle ranch. I entered the ‘beginner novice 2’ to 2’3" equivalent, judged under standardized rules. (You ride a horse, but you can’t go faster than a walk, your dog has to make an outrun and lift, and each obstacle has to be done in a certain way). We were, uh, not the high score there.

But we also entered the ‘Working Ranch Dogs Only’ class, where you can use your horse at any speed or position, you use your dog to help you bring cattle into the corral and then sort some into one corral, the rest of the cattle back to the pasture. The rules were, use your dog as you would at home. The judges were the two ranch owners, who were told to pick the competitor who handled the cattle like they wanted to see it done, calm and effective.
So we had a great run, the horse trotted because the dog needed some assistance with the gather, the heifers went at a quiet trot first, then a nice walk into the corrals, and there was no dusty kerfuffle when the heifers were ‘sorted’.
And we were second. Oh well.
The custom belt buckle and $100 went to another fellow.

But walking back to the cars, I was with the ranch owners/Ranch Class judges, where John said to Sally, “I can’t believe you gave Henry and Harry a better score than Fillabeana and Fido, I gave them the high score-Henry and Harry were faster but I thought they really fuzzed up the heifers”. To which Sally said, but I DID give Fillabeana and Fido the high score, I thought the same thing about the heifers getting upset". They were a bit distraught, but the $100 and the belt buckle had driven away by then. I was disappointed, to be sure, but I was happy because I knew I did win it. The other guy could really use the $100, I was in a much better financial position at the time. I could have another belt buckle made, but I already had a buckle I was very proud of, that I wore (and still wear). And it was better in my social situation at the time, to just let it go. So I did, and I assured John and Sally that hey, I knew I won, they knew I won, no big fuss necessary. (Sally was the local horse 4-H coach and Junior/high school rodeo coach for a long time, so she had been involved in such things, and was ready to go get stuff back for me.)

Another time, I was at an unrecognized horse trials, and they were posting final jumping/x-c scores at the same time they were handing out ribbons. There were no official jump judges, just a timer, so we were on the honor system.
I was second after dressage, but the ‘winner’ had told everyone how she didn’t walk the cross-country course, and had got lost. It took her time to find her next fence, and jumped them all, but she was way over time.
Posting the results was really informal, and they forgot to add her time penalties, so they announced (in a small group of about 15 people) her as winner of the Novice division…and I spoke up and said, she had time penalties, didn’t she? Oh yes, you’re right…calculate the penalties in, and she was fourth. Again, not much fuss but that time I did say something, since the ‘winner’ was public about getting lost on course before the ribbons were given out!

I think an unofficial ‘posting’ of results, with a half hour to speak up with any issues, is a great idea. This way, it is the exhibitors’ responsibility to speak up IN THAT TIME if something doesn’t come out right. Or somebody thinks the winning ‘pony’ is really 14.2 1/2 hh. That give s the official time to calculate points, find official pony cards or measure the pony, etc. Afterwards, those results are the official results.

I would think if there was some sort of eligibility issue, like a horse that was not pre-green eligible, or someone got ‘caught’ breaking an amateur rule, the ‘official’ results could change at a later date. Those aren’t really issues that could be solved in a half-hour. You’d have to make the ‘cheating winner’ responsible for returning prize money, and replacing prizes. Not ideal, since the ‘cheating winner’ already has the recognition, victory gallop, photo op, etc but that’s about all you could do.

Also…it seems sensible that each exhibitor know how Championships are calculated so they can go up to the office right away and get it straightened out-I mean, you KNOW what you got and I bet what the person closest to you in points got, don’t you? When in doubt when the results are read out, go to the office.

Ummm…at big multi day, multi ring USEF rateds posting results for an hour after the class before they are made official wont help with so many not there after long days is big classes with 50 trips between their round and the pinning of the class. IME if people are going to protest eligibility or height? they don’t need an hour to do it-they are in the office or with the steward long before the class pins. The USEF rated “cheating winner” does get recognition by making the public list of shame. They have to return everything, lose any points, pay a fine and sometimes get a vacation

Happened to me to, clerical error in the office giving me Reserve Champ instead of Champ at an A show, they fixed it in 10 minutes, made a PA and the other trainer had the plate and tri color back in 5 minutes saying they thought there had been an error too.

Can’t do a thing about judging errors or other people cheating but a math mistake is pretty simple to correct. Worst case, the results were announced wrong and that other person really did beat you out, but at least you know.

Thanks for the replies. It’s interesting to see most people lean towards having the prizes taken back and given to the correct horse/rider, as that’s not what I saw happen the one time I saw it (at a rated show), but this was probably 10 years ago so things could easily have changed since then.

[QUOTE=ElisLove;7238027]
THanks for the reply.
As an add on question. What if the mistake rider was a young kid? Does this make a difference to whether you tell them and/or take the prizes away?[/QUOTE]

A tough but very appropriate learning experience.

I heard a story about this happening to a younger child, and from what I was told, she was very gracious about the whole ordeal when approached to rectify the mistake.

It happened to me at a AA show about 10 years ago. I was awarded champion in the Children’s Jumper and given all the loot (ribbon, leather grooming halter). We realized on the way home from the show that things weren’t quite adding up. Called show management and they said they had contacted the winning rider and got her her prizes. I never had to turn anything in.

[QUOTE=RugBug;7238488]
I did have a friend whose horse won a year end cooler, big old ribbon, etc and it was a mistake. A few weeks later, the association wanted everything back, and contacted my trainer. She basically said to contact the owner and ask for it themselves. :slight_smile: :winkgrin: This was a once in a lifetime thing for the owner and would never, ever be close to happening again and my trainer wasn’t going to be the kill joy. Association rep was more then welcome to make the call and correct it. I don’t really know the outcome, but I don’t think they got the cooler back. :D[/QUOTE]

Apparently this “once in a lifetime thing” didn’t even happen the first time. How awful of the person to keep the cooler.

I am at a loss to understand why anybody would want to keep prizes that they did not rightfully earn. I have see these errors happen periodically and never saw the person that received the prizes erroneously ever have a problem with rectifying the situation. That just seems kind of unsportsmanlike and even a little bit crazy!

I once entered a division with two bays and a palomino. My bay and the other bay looked very similar. My bay completed both courses, but was by no stretch of the imagine were they perfect rounds. The other bay didn’t actually finish either course and was eliminated under the rules.

The judge pinned the other bay first over fences, the palomino second, and my horse third. Management refused to reassess even though the rider of the second bay, who was extremely classy, refused her ribbons and informed management that she had been eliminated. Evidently the judge had left for the day and they weren’t about to call for clarification.

We made it abundantly clear to management the next time that they practically begged for entries that we wouldn’t bother going back to one of their horse shows.

I’m well past the stage where I’m concerned about losing to good competition. However, I’m damn annoyed if I lost to people who didn’t even finish the course. :lol: