Where are the working students?

[Alterration]

@Dee-Vee

I think that in most circumstances that if the labour weren’t cheap, most people could not afford board. Sadly. It shouldn’t be that way, but it is. Also, many barn owners use boarding to “subsidize” keeping of their own horses. That doesn’t work too well either. They get soured, finding themselves working more on other people’s horses than riding their own.

This this this!

I run a small boarding facility. I pay my morning worker $15USD/hour (legally, paying taxes etc.) and she gets free housing. I do all afternoon/evenings and half of the night checks. I’d love to have someone to do the afternoons but if I did that I’d have to increase board significantly.

There is no way I could have afforded this property as a full time trainer/barn owner. I still can’t. Both my husband and I work full time in 6 figure jobs to be able to afford it, not just the mortgage but also the upkeep. And most horsey teens have been told this numerous times by adults.

So ultimately, I think the middle class (who mostly want the “normal” working student positions) are both being priced out and pushed out, the upper class already have whatever fun working student positions are available, and we’re going to have even more problems in all disciplines as we go forward.

When I was in my early 20s I had a WS type of position at a hunter facility. And it was brutal. I cleaned 25+ stalls by myself, rode multiple horses of dubious quality, taught lessons and got my body broken pretty badly. No health insurance offered. Was abused on the regular by the boarders, and basically paid for the privilege. It was great experience, but it would have been better for me to invest in my career so that I could pay for quality instruction without the issues that I still have to this day. I did last a full year before life circumstances made me move on. They were sad to lose me, but it was not a wise choice at the time.

And that was 20 years ago. It hasn’t gotten better.

I do think the industry is in peril on the whole.

To answer the questions…as a graduate from high school in the mid-90s.

1. Once, but I did take practice tests. Yes, there were people with tutors at that point but they were the few.

2. In-state tuition at a large state school was $16k/year. Definitely cheaper than today where it’s $19k/semester (same school). I didn’t buy a house until much later in my life so I can’t answer that part.

3. Two. We were the first of the latchkey kids.

4. There’s no way I could have paid board/shod a horse in my early 20s were it not for the fact that I was in a WS position and it was comped. Even now, I question my financial sanity with the salary I have.

There are those of us oldsters that acknowledge things are whacked out in our economy and they’ve gone that way since the “golden era” of the 50s/60s. There are a variety of policy reasons for that, which I will not go into in this thread. I have, though, also noticed a hopelessness in the Gen Zs coming up, and a general revolt against capitalism going on. It’s not that they don’t want to work, it’s that they don’t see a path. I think our industry is in for some painful awakenings as is our country.

[anon15718925]

I don’t ride western enough to know - ranch type stuff like roping is probably still more open to all, and I know there are a ton of Black people who are trail riders and the like.

But yeah the show ring stuff def. would have money involved. I just don’t ride western enough to know how much it’s permeated outside the breed show realms. I mean, the last time I consistently rode western I was probably 17 or so and when I rode western growing up I had zero interest in showing - childhood instructor pretty much killed any interest I might’ve had in showing as a kid. Didn’t take more of an interest in competitions until I switched to English and well, now I’m 29, life got in the way and happened and I’m horseless for the time being.

[floppyammy]

@Bristol_Bay

Anyone interested in the “amateur” era might want to read this book, written by Jane Pohl’s son.

https://www.amazon.com/Renegade-Champion-Unlikely-Rise-Fitzrada/dp/1589799585

It’s a very well-written account of one woman’s determination to compete in the same ring as all the 1% on her Army remount.

This is an amazing book. I second this recommendation.

[anon15718925]

The barn I got to that was better when I hit my early 20s wasn’t some fancy barn by any means. Probably a dying breed type of place but just to make the point:

1. Owner/instructor/barn manager were one and the same, she was an adult ammie woman who worked as an engineer and ran the barn on the side. Her primary discipline was eventing but her barn had a mix, western riders, eventers, maybe a dressage rider and one gentleman who foxhunted.

2. It was a NICE facility - probably not as fancy as some but it had a good indoor, good outdoor, small XC schooling course, decent turnout for the area and size (very hilly part of the state and not a particularly large facility) and it wasn’t too far out from a larger city.

I don’t know what board was but it was probably $300/$400ish a month or between those two figures (didn’t own a horse at the time and this would’ve been circa 2015) and lessons from the barn owner (pretty sure someone could bring in a trainer if they wanted, barn owner was a solid rider but I don’t think she’d ever ridden at a very high level, she knew enough to get me on a better track though as when I started riding English I was at the barn I’d ridden at since age 10 and left to largely my own devices having not had a real lesson since I was probably 14. But she was one of those who really studied and learned as much as she could.) were $30/a lesson (which was affordable for a college student who lived at home, worked retail and had no real expenses save for gas).

Pretty sure the barn owner did a lot of it herself with maybe some help on some chores from her long-time significant other. She might at one point have hired a local high school kid to help out with barn chores part-time or had them work off lessons.

[SuzieQNutter]

I was born on a sheep farm and we had horses. I was lucky to be born into a horse family and my sister used to put me in front of her and jump before I could walk. I don’t really remember because I was too young.

At around 5 my father died and the farm and everything was sold, the auctioneer using me crying on my horse as he was bid on.

We moved around a lot and ended up in Qld. Mum bought a Nursing Agency and luckily that was a good business that kept us going, not like a lot of businesses that went under,

I was not allowed to get a horse until we had land of our own.

To start with we lived in a caravan. From there we lived in a rental house, from there we lived in our own house and mum bought some flats. Mum and I would go for a lesson occasionally. I went to horse camp during the holidays.

When I was 15yo Mum went into a place that was up for auction the week before. It was passed in. Mum signed a contract subject to finance, as she had to sell the flats and the house we were living in.

The flats sold, the house didn’t. The real estate said the price was too high. Mum said, if we don’t sell it for that, we don’t want to sell it as we can’t afford what we want to buy.

The sale on our dream property fell through.

The lady got a hold of Mum’s phone number and called.

Don’t you want the property?

Yes we do but we could not sell our house.

What is your address?

She arrived. Walked in. Looked around and said I can live here. She bought our house. We bought hers. She wanted to get her husband out of horses. (It didn’t work. Years later he divorced her and had horses again.)

I delivered pamphlets. I received $7.00 per thousand. I bought my first horse sight unseen from one of the nurses who worked for us, brother. I also paid for half a bike and Mum paid the other half. Pepper was $100 and knew nothing. He was used to muster cattle when their was an extra man. He had never been off the farm. His mum came in the truck with him. If mum banged a pot in the
kitchen he jumped 6 foot . He was traffic shy. I still have not forgiven mum for making me go to school the day he arrived!

It was an agistment property, a do it yourself place. We did not teach, but Mum ran the agency from home,so she was always there and horsey. So I was given daily lessons in horsemanship and Mum helped with training. I was a beginner again. I grew up on Pepper’s back galloping around a State Forest

We sold manure in bags at the front gate. I did all the paperwork for the agency.

We joined the local ponyclub and used to ride to it. Then we used to ride there for an individual lesson. Then I lucked in to a fantastic instructor.

It was after training with her and receiving my first level instructor’s that I became a working student. I was a Level I, studying for my Level II, under a Level III.

I moved interstate to do that and the position did not come with accommodation so I lived in a caravan park. It was hard work. At least she did not yell and once again I was lucky to be under great instruction.

I did all the feeding, rugging, cleaning paddocks and yards, instructing and riding 8 horses a day, if you counted my own horse at lunch time.

I learned sooooo much. My riding went up levels.

I remember standing there in the evening and looking at a tall horse and feeling that I could not get the rug up so high. Then it hurt to roll bandages. It hurt to write.

I lost the use of my right arm, my job and my career. I lasted just over a year.

Decades later I could use my arm but it got weaker as used. I had been to doctors, physios, chiropractors, acupuncture. One guy told me to use it or lose it.

I didn’t realise how much I was protecting it.

Then one day I walked into a chiropractor’s room. I had not mentioned my arm. He watched me walk in and said bl***y horse riders you have landed on your head, you have hurt your arm.

He fixed me in 2 sessions.

I now work a physical job. I would love to work somewhere to improve my riding again however this time I would want to live where I live now so that limits me.

[Bristol_Bay]

Great story, especially the bit about the ranch seller buying your house so you could buy her property.

[BigMama1]

Looking at the top Canadians on the World rankings list, as well as many other of the top pros nationally / former Olympians, etc. they almost all come from wealthy families. Some very, very, billionaire wealthy, others just “regular rich.” What they all have in common is that their families financially supported their riding and provided them with access to the very best horses and trainers available right from the time they were juniors.

Not to say these riders haven’t worked hard for their success; I know many of them personally and they work their butts off every single day. But thanks to the financial support of their families (past and ongoing) their starting line was in a different time zone than the many “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” pros out there who work just as hard, but can only dream of having access to world-class horses and coaches and somebody to bankroll their endeavours so they can focus on their own success.

It’s not unique to riding - every sport at the elite level is heavily weighted in favour of those who have the financial means to devote all of their energies to training and succeeding, the resources to buy the best equipment, and access to the best coaching from day one.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

All very true! And (just agreeing with you) it’s easier in other sports to at least make do with an old pair of running shoes or a baseball bat, while to be a professional rider, you need considerably more equipment (multiple horses) to get the same skills as your competitors.

[hillary_again]

I love the discussion points on this thread! However, there’s something that I’m not understanding. Note, I have not been a WS.

I thought that the WS position (done right) was to allow the WS to learn the “business” (not just get to be a better rider). By the business, I mean: running the operation of the barn, learning how to find clients, making connections with horse sellers, teaching beginner lessons, and stuff like that.

I don’t see how being a client yourself (as in, a YR with a bigger check book) teaches you these skills. ? Am I wrong?

If you don’t have these skills, how can you get into this industry?

If you don’t learn these as a WS, what’s the path? Do you get a different job - like, as assistant trainer or something similar, based on having good riding skills, or groom, based on good stable skills, and then learn the rest (running the business, etc)?

I’m really trying to understand how people are being trained to be trainers. The basic jr h/j rider I see does not have these skills. That rider had not had any experience training anyone: the horse(s) is boarded at a full care location, and the trainer or someone else rides it, a lot. The rider is busy with some other activities. There’s not enough time to immerse in barn operations, horse care, dealing with baby horses, or even doing much riding of green horses.

Years ago, I saw kids take WS jobs during the summers, where they mostly worked with beginner lessons, of which there were more in the summer, or used WS roles to get coaching at shows and horse transport to shows, in exchange for a mountain of work that comes with showing.

If I am learning how to run a training/boarding business, then I’d equate this as going to a (real) school - I would expect I’d have to bring some $ to the deal, and not get paid enough to cover all of my expenses, plus getting free room/board/pet-and-horse board (just like I would work part-time at college, but not enough to cover every $).

[ladyj79]

We aren’t really training trainers by either training riders or training equine business professionals. Starting and training are really a specialized niche, and it isn’t something we have shown much interest in in the US with regards to developing young horses or their trainers.

True young horse starters are a rarity in the US, hence why our young horse development lags behind Europe.

This is separate from being a “working student”, either hoping to be a professional rider or a horse business…owner? Manager?

[Mander]

@hillary_again

I don’t see how being a client yourself (as in, a YR with a bigger check book) teaches you these skills. ? Am I wrong?

Same way they get other skills - money. You don’t have to grind as a WS to learn good business skills, and good business skills are certainly not exclusive to the equestrian community. I’d probably even go so far as to say that many trainers do NOT have good business skills (how often is there a new thread on here about slimy business tactics, poorly managed barns, poor communication, blurred professional relationship lines, etc?). A WS won’t be able to take any college courses, but a wealthy YR who is able to pay will have the spare time to take some business courses and learn that end of things if they so desire. And of course, there is so so much you can learn while still being a paying client if you care to pay attention. Even if that fails, if you have funding, you can hire someone to help you with that side of things too.

@hillary_again

If I am learning how to run a training/boarding business, then I’d equate this as going to a (real) school - I would expect I’d have to bring some $ to the deal, and not get paid enough to cover all of my expenses, plus getting free room/board/pet-and-horse board (just like I would work part-time at college, but not enough to cover every $).

This isn’t an entirely unfair perspective to take IMO, and assuming that the WS position is a reputable one. However, it’s worth noting that for college you can take out student loans as a form of payment, there’s a structure to what you learn and you get something concrete (a degree) to show for it. Say what you will about student loans, but they do lower the barrier to entry for people with smaller checkbooks. Unfortunately that’s not an option for people going into a WS position, and there’s no standardization of what exactly you’ll be walking away with either (many programs will ignore the business side of things altogether).

The vast majority of young adults don’t have a few years worth of living expenses saved up (let alone an emergency fund), and in the USA you still run into the issue of a lack of health insurance in what is a very dangerous line of work. And even still, after going to college, it’s not like people leave knowing everything they’ll need to run their own business right away - many of us go to work jobs that allow us to continue to be mentored in a hands on environment while being paid.

[Willesdon]

@hillary_again “I’m really trying to understand how people are being trained to be trainers”.

That good question cuts to the very root of American equestrianism. There is no/very little real professionalism evident in most of the equestrian sector. ‘Professional’ in the sense of being paid, yes, but professional in all the other aspects of quality, standards, knowledge, education, mentoring and continuing development … Too many people gain a rosette and then claim they can teach. Too many stories are evident in this forum of so-called ‘professional’ trainers behaving like demented witches towards their clients. So many threads headed “How do I leave my barn?” full of advice to run and hide before the horse is physically damaged by a vengeful ‘professional’.

Europe is well in advance in this: e.g. Germany has a clear structure of development for professional riders and trainers. France has a system of licences even for leisure riders and everyone, amateur and pro, meets a minimum standard before they compete on the national circuit. The UK has the BHS hierarchy of trainers and coaches based on progression through theoretical and practical knowledge. The USA lags behind and WS positions don’t appear to meet the modern requirements for developing a professional.

In another context, a bit like big city law firms working baby lawyers into dust and spitting out the husks leaving only one or two (damaged people) to climb up the ladder. But it is OK because they’ve always done it that way.

[Spudsmyguy]

There’s an event trainer near me who has to practically beat potential working students away with a stick! She has a stellar reputation within the industry and everyone wants to be her working student. I’m proud to call her a friend and mentor.

[BigMama1]

@hillary_again

I thought that the WS position (done right) was to allow the WS to learn the “business” (not just get to be a better rider). By the business, I mean: running the operation of the barn, learning how to find clients, making connections with horse sellers, teaching beginner lessons, and stuff like that.

I think positions are often presented that way and maybe even used to work that way, but certainly not the norm from what I see now. Most working students are just glorified grooms and barn workers, and most of their horse time is spent walking to warm up / cool out for the trainer and hand graze (because so many trainers apparently don’t turn out their previous horses. The opportunity be part of an FEI rider’s team and stand in the warm up ring at CDIs is apparently compensation enough.

I do know some trainers who truly care about giving their WS / barn staff opportunities to ride and show and learn all aspects of the business, but in my experience they are exceptions and tend not to be the elite Olympic / WEG riders, more like the next tier of solid FEI competitors at national shows, some good results in CDIs.

Maybe I’ve just met the wrong riders lol. The YR type WS with the fancy horse doesn’t seem all that interested in learning the business from the ground up. They seem interested in making connections, getting good scores at major competitions and making a name for themselves so they can find their own sponsors / clients.

[Texarkana]

@Willesdon

@hillary_again “I’m really trying to understand how people are being trained to be trainers”.

That good question cuts to the very root of American equestrianism. There is no/very little real professionalism evident in most of the equestrian sector. ‘Professional’ in the sense of being paid, yes, but professional in all the other aspects of quality, standards, knowledge, education, mentoring and continuing development … Too many people gain a rosette and then claim they can teach. Too many stories are evident in this forum of so-called ‘professional’ trainers behaving like demented witches towards their clients. So many threads headed “How do I leave my barn?” full of advice to run and hide before the horse is physically damaged by a vengeful ‘professional’.

Europe is well in advance in this: e.g. Germany has a clear structure of development for professional riders and trainers. France has a system of licences even for leisure riders and everyone, amateur and pro, meets a minimum standard before they compete on the national circuit. The UK has the BHS hierarchy of trainers and coaches based on progression through theoretical and practical knowledge. The USA lags behind and WS positions don’t appear to meet the modern requirements for developing a professional.

In another context, a bit like big city law firms working baby lawyers into dust and spitting out the husks leaving only one or two (damaged people) to climb up the ladder. But it is OK because they’ve always done it that way.

It’s definitely an area where America on the whole is lacking. Some professions have better preparations in place than others, but overall, we like to just say “you need to work hard and pay your dues like I did” without appropriate support and coaching in place.

[anon15718925]

One thing I’m wondering too - when you look at the US and our equestrian history, a lot of our legendary riders, at least prior to the 1950s, were cavalry officers. Now - yes, all countries had cavalries, many had stronger traditions with their cavalry than the US did, but what “got lost” so to speak, how did those countries successfully transfer from cavalry/military to a true professional sport.

And - okay, I don’t know if anyone on here has read it, but Jim Wofford’s recently released autobiography touches on some of Wofford’s observations, one of which is that the sport has become increasingly professionalized, in a good way. But the US kind of was late to that, relatively.

I also remember Wofford noting that back in the day, cavalry officers simply did NOT become professional riders or trainers after their time in the cavalry, it just wasn’t done, was how he described it, basically.

EDIT: Personally, and this is based more on me being well-read generally than any experience (hahaha, I’ve never (yet) left the US in my life, definitely not been a working student, but I read everything I can get my hands on and in a previous life which I still keep a toe in at times, I’ve written about the horse world and interviewed a pretty broad spectrum of horse folks) I’m thinking a lot of it is b/c Europe, as a continent/region, has a deeper horse culture than the US has had. Not that the US doesn’t have a horse culture at all, but relative to the entire contient of Europe, what horse culture we have is niche and scattered across the country, concentrated in smaller pockets of this huge country.

[Cat.J95]

I loved that book.

[BigMama1]

Other countries have a standardized program of teaching, training, testing, and needing to meet specific requirements at each stage of the process.

[anon15718925]

I guess - to get more philosophical here, those countries developed those programs and the US didn’t because, why?

Different culture, more of a horse scene, etc?

That was more my point in the post you replied to.

[Alterration]

Because “Freedom”!

I came up through the regimented BHS system. Literally zero way that would fly in the US. You couldn’t buy your way through it.