Where are Unusual Colored Horses in the Show Ring?

[Dressagelvr]

I see threads on here all the time about this cool colored horse. There’s one now about a “Pearl” Andy w/green eyes.

I see that some folks specifically breed for color cremello/palomino/buckskin/etc…

What I don’t see is many of these horses competing at the high levels of sport. Most of them seem not to compete much at all. Most color stallions that I’ve seen standing seem to have a minimal competitive record or none at all. They’re there mainly b/c they produce color.

There is Limet Hurrey (sp??) who has done some U/L dressage. And, then, there was Glitter Please…but this is only 2 that I know of & I can’t think of one that jumps (hunters/jumpers/or eventing) either.

So, why is this? Why aren’t more of these horses out there showing?

Or are they & I just don’t see it?

[ewells]

May to some degree depend on where you live. This isnt talking U/L but regionally we have some colored breeding happening and so yes I do at Rec Dressage shows here see some Tobiano and Overo WB’s. Also I did last year see a really amazing moving Sooty Buckskin Lusitano.

I agree that these colores are not represented in the U/L arena from what Ive seen.

maybe Sartors Showtime will do something
http://www.gestuet-vorwerk.de/index.php?id=90

Like I have seen others mention on here it looks like when color is in the breeding equation you dont see the quality. IMO when they have color no matter how pumped up with recognisable names there pedagree is they just dont have the U/L mvt but they make fun ammy horses.

[MysticOakRanch]

My pinto stallion showed through Grand Prix, and I do see other pintos out there at the FEI levels too. I know of a buckskin Arab/QH cross who showed very successfully until he was injured, and there is a dilute (not sure WHAT the actual color is) GRP that is showing PSG now. They are out there - but the colored horses are rare, it is genetically difficult to breed color, AND they often attract owners who are not into showing, or are more into halter/in hand classes. Unusual color means UNUSUAL, so you won’t see a lot of them.

[grayarabpony]

Horses descended from Samber have done well:

http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/735

http://www.stallions-online.net/Samber.shtml

[Dressagelvr]

Does anyone if Limet Hurray is still showing? Or anything about offspring?

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

Palladio (pinto) stallion Caletto I/ Samber standing at Crestline Farm is a hunter that has competed in/won hunter derbies. I’m not sure he is actively competing anymore (he’s a 1997 model).

One of his sons is at the stallion testing this year I believe.

[JB]

Yes, Pallido Blu is at the test now - pictures look good

i agree it depends where you are. There are more in the UK than in the US. Solaris Sporthorses has several colored stallions who are getting out there, and whose offspring are getting out there. There are quite a few more colored - both spotted and dilute - stallions over that way. Gestuet-Falkenhorst has some - Blue Eyed Dream is doing pretty well at 3rd Level, and I think, though don’t quote me, his sire Blonder Hans competed as well. Samico F, Chess M, Camaro, Stanhopes Diddicoy and his son Three Cups Apple Jack, Semper LT, Copabella Visage, Sir Cisco, Ballan Soso, Visage van de Olmenhoeve, and really quite a few more.

Probably the biggest reason why we don’t hear a lot about them, unless you are specifically looking for them, is that it’s hard enough to get to the upper levels, so once you take a really small % of quality enough colored horses, their presence in the whole upper level world is going to be really small.

[Derby_Lyn_Farms]

Pegasus Pure Gold competes in eventing. http://pegasusfarmwv.wordpress.com/welcome/breeding-program/pegasus-pure-gold-cosmo/
Not sure if he is still competing, looks like he was at training level in 2009.

I believe it mostly has to do with time, money and resources, and not the lack of ability in the horse. Since there are more bays, greys, and chestnuts, chances are an UL horse will be one of those colors.

Does anyone know the percentage of tb’s registered under certain colors? In 2013 the estimated number of foals to be registered in North America is 23,000. Maybe 50 of them will be colored? Or do you think more?

[Snowfox]

Luckily you can find them in the ponies! http://www.chronofhorse.com/Cutest-pony-Harrisburg
Maddie Schafer especially has a couple cuties!

[RiverOaksFarm]

Blue Eyed Dream GF is competing at FEI Prix St Georges, in Florida, and scoring in the mid 60’s. Dream is a cremello German Warmblood by Blonder Hans. I have a cremello daughter of his (Blue Eyed Dream GF / Mascarpone / Wummestern.)

Elijah HP is competing at I-2 and in the Grand Prix developing horse test. Earlier this year in Florida he scored a 70+ at I-1. Elijah is a pinto FSA Friesian Sporthorse by Nico.

There’s another pinto Friesian Sporthorse (FSA) mare in Florida, showing First and schooling Third, so she may be one to talk about in a couple of years too.

As more pinto and dilute Warmblood stallions are approved for breeding, I think we’ll see more colored horses competing and we’ll see the “it’s colored, it must be a stockhorse” bias fade also. There is a pinto (Pallido Blu CF) and a cremello (Mitril) currently at the 70-day stallion test – good news for people looking for colored stallions!

Gigha

[TrueColours]

I stand and produce those “unusual coloured horses”

My cremello TB stallion produces buckskin, palomino, smoky black, smoky brown offspring and he evented to Training Level before I got him which was enough to get his CSHA approvals which was all that his former owners wanted to do with him. I have started him back under saddle once again much to his surprise and he will start showing in the dressage ring in 2014 and it will be fun to see how far he can progress!

He has never been marketed as an upper level sire. He is firmly entrenched in the mid levels where he is very popular with a very wide variety of Mare Owners and across many breed spectrums - English and Western, dressage, eventing, hunter, jumper, field hunting, pleasure - you name it. His offspring will happily take a pro around the ring and be competitive and then give a pony ride to a little kid or to someone who has never ridden before. Thats where his value lies with 98% of the people that choose to breed to him with only a small percentage breeding to him to try and produce an upper level prospect

For me - thats just fine.

He more than pays his way, he gets repeat breedings, he gets word of mouth referrals - all which pay the bills around here

While it would be very nice to have that talented individual with the talented owner with deep pockets take them into the “Big Ring” those “one offs” dont pay the bills month in and month out but when they do happen - I will cheer them on from the sidelines as a very proud Stallion Owner

Many clients dont want to spend the time and the money to get their horses into the big shows week in and week out. At the Royal Winter Fair a few weeks ago I was talking with some BNT’s and some judges about the difference today compared to when I last showed (where the 1st year Green’s would have 70-80 horses in there and need to be split) and the Ammy Hunters would be the same - 50 to 80 horses per class necessitating a split and they all said those days are long gone. 10-15-20 per division is the norm now and most clients want to lease and dont want to buy anymore so they can hand the horse back at the end of the show season. Big sellers that regularily sold 70-90 top quality horses per year are selling 20-25 if they are lucky and for less money per head

The clients that want to have a safe, sane, pretty, user friendly partner to take to local shows, go on hacks with, enjoy in their backyards, not spend a fortune showing, etc is what makes my business stay profitable and allows me to open my doors each day and they pay the same stud fee as one that wants to produce a GP horse, and there are more of them … and they like the fact that their friends “ooh” and “aah” over their pretty palomino or pinto

And for me - that is more than enough …

[crosscreeksh]

[QUOTE=TrueColours;7277951]
I stand and produce those “unusual coloured horses”

My cremello TB stallion produces buckskin, palomino, smoky black, smoky brown offspring and he evented to Training Level before I got him which was enough to get his CSHA approvals which was all that his former owners wanted to do with him. I have started him back under saddle once again much to his surprise and he will start showing in the dressage ring in 2014 and it will be fun to see how far he can progress!

He has never been marketed as an upper level sire. He is firmly entrenched in the mid levels where he is very popular with a very wide variety of Mare Owners and across many breed spectrums - English and Western, dressage, eventing, hunter, jumper, field hunting, pleasure - you name it. His offspring will happily take a pro around the ring and be competitive and then give a pony ride to a little kid or to someone who has never ridden before. Thats where his value lies with 98% of the people that choose to breed to him with only a small percentage breeding to him to try and produce an upper level prospect

For me - thats just fine.

He more than pays his way, he gets repeat breedings, he gets word of mouth referrals - all which pay the bills around here

While it would be very nice to have that talented individual with the talented owner with deep pockets take them into the “Big Ring” those “one offs” dont pay the bills month in and month out but when they do happen - I will cheer them on from the sidelines as a very proud Stallion Owner

Many clients dont want to spend the time and the money to get their horses into the big shows week in and week out. At the Royal Winter Fair a few weeks ago I was talking with some BNT’s and some judges about the difference today compared to when I last showed (where the 1st year Green’s would have 70-80 horses in there and need to be split) and the Ammy Hunters would be the same - 50 to 80 horses per class necessitating a split and they all said those days are long gone. 10-15-20 per division is the norm now and most clients want to lease and dont want to buy anymore so they can hand the horse back at the end of the show season. Big sellers that regularily sold 70-90 top quality horses per year are selling 20-25 if they are lucky and for less money per head

The clients that want to have a safe, sane, pretty, user friendly partner to take to local shows, go on hacks with, enjoy in their backyards, not spend a fortune showing, etc is what makes my business stay profitable and allows me to open my doors each day and they pay the same stud fee as one that wants to produce a GP horse, and there are more of them … and they like the fact that their friends “ooh” and “aah” over their pretty palomino or pinto

And for me - that is more than enough …[/QUOTE]

“THIS” says it all. The percentage of people who breed their own mares to produce world class competition horses is minute (don’t know the actual numbers), but the people who want just what TC says are the income producers to the average “commercial” breeder of sport horses (IMO). “Curb appeal” is probably number one, but sane, safe, user friendly babies runs a very close second!! When we did horse shows - hunter and jumper - people scoffed at the low level classes, but those entries supported the shows for the handful of riders to jump the BIG fences. Breeding for the most plentiful market makes the most sense.

[TrueColours]

When we did horse shows - hunter and jumper - people scoffed at the low level classes, but those entries supported the shows for the handful of riders to jump the BIG fences. Breeding for the most plentiful market makes the most sense.

And BINGO! to these comments …

Many of the BNT’s on the East Coast that I speak to on a regular basis said a few years ago, they catered 100% to the clients that wanted to do the big “A” shows and nothing else. Then as those clients dropped out of showing, they relented and added a few “B” level clients and now surprise surprise. They no longer have any “A” clients. They have a barn full of “B” level show clients who collectively pay the bills and keep the farm running

Things have changed most decidely and if you want to stay in business and pay your bills, you go where the demand and the interest is for the majority of the clientelle and buyers and for me, that is very much the mid levels of showing

And THAT is where you will find a lot of these pretty palomino, buckskin and pinto “unusual coloured” horses with their proud owners showing them off to family and friends

[MuskokaLakesConnemaras]

I am an anomaly in the Connemara world in that I prefer the single and double dilutes. Just imported a perlino colt who will go the stallion testing route and have a performance career (knock on wood!!). My market is the baby boomers and Connemaras fill that role admirably! Most folks love the breed but aren’t keen on the sea of grey, so I decided to fill that niche
While I might be a bit of a pariah to other breeders, I also have zero issues selling my stock and am pretty much “sold out”.
Folks want a sane, athletic and fun partner in a neat wrapper. Happy to oblige

[Fabrege]

I just had a thread about Dallas the palomino stallion. Holsteiner on sire side Australian stock horse on dams side. Nice stallion strong attributes and ammy friendly. All of which are good for producing nice offspring for either yourself or resale. Most people would pass right over his ad because he is a palomino. To be honest I did too but went back to it because of his stud fee being what I consider on the low end for his quality. If his fee was any higher I would of not went back and checked him out. I think color has alot to do with it not being “normal”.

[TrueColours]

I think to add to what MuskokaLakesConnemara said as well, I find buyers are very specific in what they are looking for, as in:

" I am looking for a buckskin or palomino yearling to 3 year old with 4 stockings and a blaze. Do you have anything that fits this bill for sale by your stallion or know of someone who does?"

And then they get into the specifics of what they want the horse for, but the look, the colour, the markings, etc are all very very important to them, enough that its how they open up their email enquiry to me.

Call it shallow, call it frivolous but it many cases its the Baby Boomers that finally have the money to buy what they have wanted all their working careers and are finally in a position to do so, and its been a dream for them to own something like this for many many years and it is the smart breeder that caters to what the demand is

As well - the very specific enquiries come from far off places - Libya, Iran, French Guyana, Johannesburg, Malaysia, Germany, the UK, etc so it isnt just a North American phenomena - breeders and owners in those countries appear to count colour and markings high on their lists for what they want to produce as well. There must be a reason many buyers with cash in hand want to buy and produce these “unusual coloured horses”

[ewells]

Really good above posts! I compleatley agree that the Real market is adult Ammies that are getting their dream horse and have come to the realzation that they want something safe and fun. Ill add that they also are considering soundness as well and many of these horses with some “stock” breeding or what ever that adds some color/fun can have more bone and heartyness that will make for a life time partner that isnt costing a fortune at the vets… At least im taking this into consideration
I also agree that in the future we are going to see color in the U/L the base stock are being and have been created now. That will be exciting…

[Janeway]

[QUOTE=ewells;7279126]
Ill add that they also are considering soundness as well and many of these horses with some “stock” breeding or what ever that adds some color/fun can have more bone and heartyness that will make for a life time partner that isnt costing a fortune at the vets… At least im taking this into consideration
I also agree that in the future we are going to see color in the U/L the base stock are being and have been created now. That will be exciting…[/QUOTE]

But isn’t it also that “stock” breeding that is preventing the coloured horses from reaching the top of the sport? The OP’s question was why don’t we see these coloured horses at the high levels, and I wonder if it because up until recently, a lot of them did not have the necessary jumper or dressage blood to give them what is now needed at the top. I mean isn’t the average palomino out there still going to be mostly TB and QH or a mix? It seems that only recently have there been purpose-bred coloured warmblood aimed at the Olympic disciplines. And current jumping/dressage rankings show that you need a modern warmblood to compete at the top. So until more of the dilutes/pintos/spots etc have reached the same level of breeding as the other warmbloods, I don’t really see them suddenly exploding on the scene. There are some definitely but not enough for the best to be constantly discovered and nurtured to the top.

Which is too bad because I love buckskins and palominos!

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=Janeway;7279247]
But isn’t it also that “stock” breeding that is preventing the coloured horses from reaching the top of the sport? The OP’s question was why don’t we see these coloured horses at the high levels, and I wonder if it because up until recently, a lot of them did not have the necessary jumper or dressage blood to give them what is now needed at the top. I mean isn’t the average palomino out there still going to be mostly TB and QH or a mix? It seems that only recently have there been purpose-bred coloured warmblood aimed at the Olympic disciplines. And current jumping/dressage rankings show that you need a modern warmblood to compete at the top. So until more of the dilutes/pintos/spots etc have reached the same level of breeding as the other warmbloods, I don’t really see them suddenly exploding on the scene. There are some definitely but not enough for the best to be constantly discovered and nurtured to the top.

Which is too bad because I love buckskins and palominos! [/QUOTE]

I think between the small numbers and the lack of really good colored bloodlines, you are not going to see them in any great numbers anytime soon as stated above.
Think how many plain bays there with amazing pedigree’s that don’t make it to the UL for whatever reasons and then compare to the population of “colored” horses.
I think it is fine to breed for more of a pleasure horse (if there are no great claims otherwise) but that really wasn’t the OP’s question.
It is hard enough breeding UL horses without adding in a trait that is totally separate and not prevalent in the sport horse population to start with. It is a bit of an uphill battle for those breeders. And not everyone wants a colored horse to start with. My favorite is bay and then dark bay. So the added “effort” is lost on many people for a UL colored horse which may reduce the ability to get the colored horse into a UL situation.

[JB]

Many of these lines are not at all stock-bred.