Where are Unusual Colored Horses in the Show Ring?

[exvet]

What I don’t see is many of these horses competing at the high levels of sport. Most of them seem not to compete much at all. Most color stallions that I’ve seen standing seem to have a minimal competitive record or none at all.

Just can’t resist but I know the examples I’m about to give don’t really qualify in the minds of many here. When I first watched Kentchurch Chime, a palomino Welsh Cob stallion, float across the diagonal with power and grace I didn’t really notice that he was palomino but I did notice he had nice quality feather. He and his rider were competing at Grand Prix. It was the kur. He was too small to make it at the International level and likely would not have been competitive by today’s standards but to me he was no less impressive. I’m pretty sure his rider earned her gold on him. I was told he started his dressage career at age 9 after having competed on the line, in the breed ring at performance and I believe driving, if memory serves me correctly. He passed away a couple/few years ago. I do believe that one of the few FEI ponies to grace Gladstone, though admittedly still in its infancy, was/is a cremello Welsh Cob gelding. My buckskin Welsh Cob competes at third level. There are quite a few more (colorful Welsh Cobs) who do far better than I and are working their way up the levels in their sport - eventing (know of a buckskin welsh cob x tb), dressage, or CDEs. Personally I’m married to the breed, not the color but if my buckskin mare (section C) bestows on me something in the dilute realm as oppose to the usual bay I will be just as happy as long as it’s healthy.

[NoDQhere]

We have an Appaloosa stallion who has virtually no Quarter Horse breeding. Just Appaloosa and TB and the Appaloosas are all from before the AQHA brainwashing and were “riding horses”. They were successful racing and performance horses. The TBs in his pedigree are pretty good horses as well. We expect this stallion is going to produce very good sport horses when crossed on our Warmblood mares. Plus they will have “chrome”.

More and more buyers want something a little different to look at, along with sane and sound. The reality is that most breeders need to breed horses that pay their way. As others have said, so much of how high a horse makes it depends on many things other than the horse. The majority of our buyers are NOT aiming for the top of the sport, they want to be competitive, for sure, but they also want a horse that is fun to ride and they want PRETTY.

I think we will start seeing more colored horses at the upper levels as they become less uncommon.

[MuskokaLakesConnemaras]

My Connemaras have no stock breed in them

[RiverOaksFarm]

But isn’t it also that “stock” breeding that is preventing the coloured horses from reaching the top of the sport? The OP’s question was why don’t we see these coloured horses at the high levels

Janeway makes a good point.

I think “color fans” sort of fall into two categories – those who care mostly about the color and are okay with using stockhorse breeds like Paint and QH to achieve the color, and those who want to keep all of the Warmblood attributes and qualities with the bonus of color.

For myself, I wouldn’t use a stock breed to get color, but I understand why others might do it.

I admire the people who’ve worked diligently to bring “colors” to Warmbloods. Pioneers like Liz Hall / Silverwood Farm, for example. And people like the owners of the two colored stallions currently at the 70-day stallion test. And people like Sherry / Hidden Promise Sporthorses also, who was a pioneer in pinto Friesian Sporthorse breeding. combining pinto Dutch Warmblood and Friesian blood.

Many of these lines are not at all stock-bred.

None of the horses I listed in my previous post – Blue Eyed Dream GF (Prix St Georges cremello German Warmblood), Elijah HP (Grand Prix pinto Friesian Sporthorse) Mitril (cremello at the 70-day-test), Pallido Blu CF (pinto at the 70-day-test), or the other pinto FSA mare I mentioned, or my own cremello German Warmblood mare – none of these horses have stockhorse blood in their pedigrees as far as I know.

[JB]

It’s the old mentality that color could ONLY come from stock horses that has, IMHO, kept the colored sporthorses from being ahead of where they are today. Nobody wanted to even look at a WB “of color” because of the stigma of “ewww, it must have come from a Paint, no thanks”.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Fabrege;7278526]
I just had a thread about Dallas the palomino stallion. Holsteiner on sire side Australian stock horse on dams side. Nice stallion strong attributes and ammy friendly. All of which are good for producing nice offspring for either yourself or resale. Most people would pass right over his ad because he is a palomino. To be honest I did too but went back to it because of his stud fee being what I consider on the low end for his quality. If his fee was any higher I would of not went back and checked him out. I think color has alot to do with it not being “normal”.[/QUOTE]

I would not pass over him because of his color, but I would take a pass on him because he’s an F-1 and not likely to produce consistent offspring.

I looked into breeding to Limet Hurry afew times, but only frozen was available because of his show season. Several people who saw him in person at shows thought he was a very nice boy in terms of talent/disposition, etc.

[RiverOaksFarm]

[QUOTE=JB;7280764]
It’s the old mentality that color could ONLY come from stock horses that has, IMHO, kept the colored sporthorses from being ahead of where they are today. Nobody wanted to even look at a WB “of color” because of the stigma of “ewww, it must have come from a Paint, no thanks”.[/QUOTE]

I agree, JB. There’s definitely been a stigma about color because of negative assumptions that the color must have come from a Paint or a Quarter Horse, breeds which are generally shunned in the Warmblood world. I’ve also learned a lot of people don’t know the difference between pinto and Paint and assume they’re the same thing, so they have an immediate bias against pintos even if the pedigree traces straight back to Samber and doesn’t have a drop of Paint blood.

I’ve written a few magazine articles about colored Warmblood and sporthorse breeding in the last couple of years, to shed light on the wonderful colored Warmblood options available. Ironically enough I’m not even a “color person” per se, although I’ve learned a lot about it as I’ve written about it and researched it. Which is also how I’ve come to have so much respect for the people who’ve remained steadfast in their dedication to producing and promoting true colored Warmbloods / Sporthorses.

Gigha

[Dewey]

The mare A Chanceof Blueskies has been extremely successful in AQHA. She took top honors yet again in Working Hunter this year at the World Show. I have not seen her in person, but by all accounts she would be competitive in any company. She is described as buckskin, but she looks to me like a sooty buckskin.

http://www.equinechronicle.com/meghan-omalley-and-a-chanceof-blueskies-win-third-am-over-fence-world-title-of-the-show/

[Fancy_That]

NDQ - I LOVE the type on your Appy…my goodness, he has amazing bone!!! That must come from his “good Appy” blood, because the modern ApHC horses have fine bone like a QH! Your boy is stunning! Lovely topline, overall balance, etc.

I’ve been lurking on this thread, but just wanted to chime in on your boy LOVELY!

BTW, agree with what many others here have already said and as Marketing Pro (I make my living as a Marketing Exec)…some of the “color breeders” are the smartest to cater to WHERE THE DEMAND IS. The percentage of your “target audience” who wants to go to the Upper Levels is minute.

The Ammy Owners who want their dream horse make up a much larger market and those folks are often the ones drawn to not only a Safe, Sane, Sound “easy horse”…but to “pretty” too! (and yes, that often means BLING or Golden Colors or Spots or what have you

Fun thread!

[QUOTE=NoDQhere;7279808]
We have an Appaloosa stallion who has virtually no Quarter Horse breeding. Just Appaloosa and TB and the Appaloosas are all from before the AQHA brainwashing and were “riding horses”. They were successful racing and performance horses. The TBs in his pedigree are pretty good horses as well. We expect this stallion is going to produce very good sport horses when crossed on our Warmblood mares. Plus they will have “chrome”.

More and more buyers want something a little different to look at, along with sane and sound. The reality is that most breeders need to breed horses that pay their way. As others have said, so much of how high a horse makes it depends on many things other than the horse. The majority of our buyers are NOT aiming for the top of the sport, they want to be competitive, for sure, but they also want a horse that is fun to ride and they want PRETTY.

I think we will start seeing more colored horses at the upper levels as they become less uncommon.[/QUOTE]

[TrueColours]

The OP’s question was why don’t we see these coloured horses at the high levels, and I wonder if it because up until recently, a lot of them did not have the necessary jumper or dressage blood to give them what is now needed at the top. I mean isn’t the average palomino out there still going to be mostly TB and QH or a mix? It seems that only recently have there been purpose-bred coloured warmblood aimed at the Olympic disciplines.

Janeway - I think the lines got a little muddled in the opening post by the OP:

What I don’t see is many of these horses competing at the high levels of sport. Most of them seem not to compete much at all. Most color stallions that I’ve seen standing seem to have a minimal competitive record or none at all. They’re there mainly b/c they produce color.

The title of this thread asked “Where are the Unusual Colored Horses in the Show Ring?”

Then the first paragraph above mentioned UL competitors but thenm went on to state they colored horses dont seem to compete much at all, and a minimal competitive record or none at all

So - at the UL - none yet that I am aware of unless you count Torrance Fleischman’s metallic Akhal Teke that she competed Advanced Level eventing as “unusual colored”

As then stated by many posters, there are many many “unusual colored horses” competing in a myriad of show venues throughout North America in the hunter, jumper, dressage, eventing, driving, vaulting, endurance, etc competitions from the most basic of levels to low and higher levels and everything in between

And as has also been stated, in some / many cases its not the limitation of the horse itself that prevents it from being campaigned at a higher level, but the size of the owners pocketbook and their own desire to compete (or not compete) at a level higher than they are comfortable doing. The same as any talented bay, brown, chestnut, black or grey horse …

Yes - there are more “bay” horses at the UL’s for sure - not because through some genetic anomoly bays are more talented than palomino pinto’s are, but simply because of sheer numbers, there are more bays on this planet than there are palomino pinto’s …

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=RiverOaksFarm;7280852]
I agree, JB. There’s definitely been a stigma about color because of negative assumptions that the color must have come from a Paint or a Quarter Horse, I’ve also learned a lot of people don’t know the difference between pinto and Paint and assume they’re the same thing, so they have an breeds which are generally shunned in the Warmblood world.immediate bias against pintos even if the pedigree traces straight back to Samber and doesn’t have a drop of Paint blood. …

Gigha[/QUOTE]

I think you have to be careful or fair in suggesting that the other breeds are shunned or there is a prejudice against them in the WB world. Someone can like the other breeds but don’t necessarily want them combined with a WB. And because many NA breeders used local mares to start their program, buyers have become wary of these types. The WB “cross”. You still see them and usually they are asking as much for these horses as “pure” WB pedigrees. So yes there is a stigma but it comes from people who have NA registered Wb’s that are actually “crosses”.
I have seen some nice horses that are NA registered Wb’s that have a QH grand dam’s or what not. But the cost of that horse is less than for someone that imported a mare to start with and has a solid pedigree. Which horse is better for competition? It should be the horse with the consistent pedigree. And if I were going to pay top dollar, I would want the best chance of success or best pedigree possible for breeding. So not a shun of other breeds, just wanting a Wb.

[Erin_Pittman]

I bred this one: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151071628511585&set=a.173773971584.117723.562631584&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Fscontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F526457_10151071628511585_102071164_n.jpg&size=750%2C500 and then sold him. His owner has competed him through Training in eventing and at dressage shows (local, I believe). I’m not sure what he’s doing now as owner’s DH was sent to Rome with the Military and I was asked to help find him a free-lease home (this was a year ago). He’s one of Sempatico’s first US crop.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=TrueColours;7281034]
Janeway - I think the lines got a little muddled in the opening post by the OP:

The title of this thread asked “Where are the Unusual Colored Horses in the Show Ring?”

Then the first paragraph above mentioned UL competitors but thenm went on to state they colored horses dont seem to compete much at all, and a minimal competitive record or none at all

So - at the UL - none yet that I am aware of unless you count Torrance Fleischman’s metallic Akhal Teke that she competed Advanced Level eventing as “unusual colored”

As then stated by many posters, there are many many “unusual colored horses” competing in a myriad of show venues throughout North America in the hunter, jumper, dressage, eventing, driving, vaulting, endurance, etc competitions from the most basic of levels to low and higher levels and everything in between

And as has also been stated, in some / many cases its not the limitation of the horse itself that prevents it from being campaigned at a higher level, but the size of the owners pocketbook and their own desire to compete (or not compete) at a level higher than they are comfortable doing. The same as any talented bay, brown, chestnut, black or grey horse …

Yes - there are more “bay” horses at the UL’s for sure - not because through some genetic anomoly bays are more talented than palomino pinto’s are, but simply because of sheer numbers, there are more bays on this planet than there are palomino pinto’s … ;)[/QUOTE]

Torrance Fleischman also rode a pinto mare (sired by a TB) named Poltroon who won Rolex, was second at Badminton, and third at the alternate Olympic Games at Fountainbleu in 1980.

Back in the '90s Pippa Funnel rode a pinto called Bits and Pieces at 4 star level.

I remember seeing a lovely pinto named Picasso in the Duke Children’s Classic Grand Prix (show jumping) 10 plus years ago.

[Snowfox]

There use to be a great Paint Hunter during the 80’s/90’s --Tattersall. Anyone remember him?

[Fabrege]

This is a dumb question but what does F-1 mean? Someone posted that they would pass on breeding to Dallas because he is an F-1 and not likely to produce consistent offspring.

[JB]

F-1 is “first generation”, referring to the first generation cross of 2 separate breeds. Think - Clydesdale x TB.

The result itself might be very nice. But, because the genetics are fairly disparate, any offspring might be pretty unpredictable. Some get the right mix of the 2 and can go on to be good producers, especially when bred back to the light horse cross (in the case of heavy x light), but it takes a lot of talent in choosing the right individuals of the right breeds to begin with, and even more luck, to get such an F-1.

[TrueColours]

There was a huge “debate” (to refer to it politely … ;)) between the CSHA (Canadian Sport Horse Association) and CWHBA (Canadian Warmblood Association) here in Canada for many years. In a nutshell, the APA (Animal Pedigree Act) wanted to merge the 2 as there is no provision for 2 breed registries in the same country to be producing / registering . creating the same type/breed of horse, similar to how the governing body in Europe would not allow a new Holsteiner or Hanoverian registry to be formed if someone over there wanted to do so

The APA states that in Generation 5 (or 6? Cant remember which it is) a new “evolving” breed will have been formed with specific characteristics that are recognizable as a “Canadian Sport Horse” - again in much the same way as Holsteiner, Hanoverian, etc have started and evolved. If someone wants to do some reading here is the APA link:

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/A-11.2/FullText.html

As JB said, F0, F1 or probably F2 as well, no distinct evolved “type” is there yet, so they wont breed true at that stage - you need to continue on in your breeding program over many successive generations to arrive at a true Sport Horse “type”

CWHBA, on the other hand, fought any talks of an amalgamation with CSHA (distinct breed organization) as CWHBA stated from the beginning, their mandate was to create an “distinct” breed so the end goals of each organization was vastly different and the path each was choosing to take was very different as well

http://www.canadianwarmbloods.com/2007news/pdfdocs07/DistinctBreedversusEvolvingBreed.pdf

I believe the debate has gone quiet right now. I believe each breed registry is being permitted to operate under their own mandates and goals but it was very interesting to watch for awhile as they each laid out their reasons for amalgamation versus separate identities and goals

*** Edited to fix my “oops!” ***

[NoDQhere]

Thank You, Fancy That! We are confident that the Appy stallion will produce very well. We will be showing him as well. He is a talented and athletic horse. Our biggest “problem” is our location. There just aren’t many shows less than a days drive away from us.

[Fancy_That]

Erin - OMG, sorry to digress but you have a Morgan x Trak cross??? Love that you are breeding (or were) with a drop of Morgan I know it’s unconventional but I think Morgans are the most amazing horses (I’m biased of course) and I love seeing them used in Sport

That pinto by Sempatico is beautiful! Bet noone would have guessed him to be 1/4 Morgan

[QUOTE=Erin Pittman;7281438]
I bred this one: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151071628511585&set=a.173773971584.117723.562631584&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Fscontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F526457_10151071628511585_102071164_n.jpg&size=750%2C500 and then sold him. His owner has competed him through Training in eventing and at dressage shows (local, I believe). I’m not sure what he’s doing now as owner’s DH was sent to Rome with the Military and I was asked to help find him a free-lease home (this was a year ago). He’s one of Sempatico’s first US crop.[/QUOTE]

[stoicfish]

CWHBA, on the other hand, fought any talks of an amalgamation with CSHA (distinct breed organization) as CWHBA stated from the beginning, their mandate was to create an “evolving” breed so the end goals of each organization was vastly different and the path each was choosing to take was very different as well

http://www.canadianwarmbloods.com/20...lvingBreed.pdf

TC, you have that exactly backwards.
CW claimed (and proved and were granted) that they are a distinct breed based on the many generations of WB’s bred in Europe. That there is a distinct genetic group already established for several generations. Their basis for membership is the main recognized European registries.
However CSH is an evolving breed. http://www.c-s-h-a.org/content/simplenews/canadian-sport-horse-association-test-email-blast-3369.html

Offspring of approved mares &/or stallions are eligible for identification/registration in the stud book of the Canadian Sport Horse Association.As an evolving breed under the Animal Pedigree Act –identification is the correct term; however it is used in the same context with registration.

Now the interesting part is how long do they have to create the 6 or 7 generations? And when do they finally close the door and do the work to show the original “foundation stock”, especially without using Wb’s as their foundation.
CW could not use Tb or Trakheners as they are already a “breed” in Canada.

Edited to add that they can use Wb’s since they are developing a breed and CW was establishing an existing breed. And they are already identifying their foundation stock in the animals registered with them.