Where are Unusual Colored Horses in the Show Ring?

Ooh. I love him. I have a Leopard buckskin half DWB mare who would do lovely with him. Too bad I can’t read that language.

I personally think people are still weary of colour and because of that the well bred mares are not bred to coloured stallions of any caliber unless it is for an ammy horse.

But I think in years to come we will see an influx of nicely bred coloured horses.
It took years to develop many of these lines and colour is just started to be regarded as something other than nuisance.

However, with respect to your post about Guaranteed Gold, the fact that none of his offspring are competing at the UPPER levels of any discipline is highlighted. If his oldest foals are 10 or 11, they should be making their way up there if they are capable. That’s not to say that there might not be a few that are capable of higher level competition that are in the hands of riders without the drive or capability to ride beyond the lower levels.

and:

So why is it that these horses are not at the UPPER levels?

As I have said repeatedly, I dont market Guaranteed Gold to the UL’s. Never have, Never will but if 1 or 2 or 3 make it to that level in some discipline because the animal and rider/trainer were talented enough to do so and the deep pockets and ability was there as well - I will be thrilled. No two ways about it … :slight_smile:

GG is firmly entrenched in the “Mid Levels” for those that want competitive, pretty, fun, nice moving, nice jumping, user friendly, safe, sane offspring to show, to hack, to lead their kids around on, lead their granny around on. Go through streams, ride bareback, show the next day, stick a pro on and be competitive in those classes. Ride in a big field on a snowy day, have 20 or 30 wild pigs (really!) surprise you on a hack and know you wont be dumped as your horse hightails it out of there leaving you to fend for yourself with said wild pigs.

THAT is the market he specifically is aimed towards which I would say easily makes up 90% ± of the buying market so I am more than happy gearing my breeding and production program to those individuals

There are breeders out there with stellar upper level mares being bred to fabulous UL stallions - they are more than welcome to gear their breeding and production efforts to those clients looking specifically for successful UL credentials on all sides of the equation. I wont fight them for one single bit of their market share - they are far better able to succeed than I ever would be in that market and no one is going to care what colour the horse(s) are that they produced or how many spots it does or doesnt have … :wink:

Nowhere on this or other threads have I said “Breed to my coloured stallion for your next Olympic prospect.” It simply would never be said … :slight_smile:

Now - having said all that, I will cheer as loudly as the rest if any dilute, spotted, pinto, etc offspring from ANY stallion makes it firmly into the UL’s. It will be fun to see and really gratifying for the breeder / SO that accomplished that milestone :slight_smile:

I do believe that you have marketed GG as being the best of the best - we read other boards you know.

And wouldn’t his kin be coming 13 now?

Honestly I am happy to see you market your stallion as middle of the road, and I think this is a change and also more realist.

Wow Alex S - you are taking such an avid interest in my breeding program and especially in my stallion! Even before I owned him. How “interesting” … :wink:

He’s 15 this year - a 1998 stallion. I highly doubt he was bred as a yearling in order to have foals on the ground in 2000. Was he bred at 2? Who knows - LONG before I owned him or had anything to do with him …

I DO believe he is the “Best of the Best” of the double dilute TB stallions out there. :slight_smile: Only one with a show record. Only one approved in a registry (CSHA). Only one with an approved son in a German registry in Europe. High scoring daughter at the BWP inspection against 5 other full or part WB mares. Zone Champion offspring this year in Pre Training eventing in the Ontario region. Zone Champion in Dressage for another daughter. Zone Champion in Dressage for another son. Daughter was Reserve Champion USEF 3 year old in Hunter Breeding. Site Champion RPSI foal this year (this was a grandson out of a daughter of his). He is going back to the show ring in 2014 in dressage as a 16 year old to see what he can do. Yeah - he’s done everything we asked for him to do and more. :slight_smile: And as far as his return to the show ring goes, we’ll let the judges and their scores tell the tale as to how he fares against the competition. And how far will he go in dressage? Again - who knows - only time will tell … :slight_smile:

http://www.belgianwarmblood.com/backend/News/news_upload/Posted_2__BWP_2012_Keuring_Results_8.pdf

5 mares? It says 2 here. Care to explain?

The reality in the US is that very few stallions offspring ever get the opportunity to be ridden to the upper levels. The US just doesn’t have the numbers of upper level riders. It is the mid-level riders that keep most of us in business. And to be fair, many of those mid-level riders could ride at the upper levels IF they had deeper pockets AND fewer “other” commitments.

[QUOTE=TrueColours;7294839]
I DO believe he is the “Best of the Best” of the double dilute TB stallions out there. :slight_smile: Only one with a show record. Only one approved in a registry (CSHA). [/QUOTE]

TC, I am genuinely not “picking on” GG. I am merely using this as an example of coloured horses not making their way to the upper levels of sport. It makes me wonder why no event breeder has said, you know what, I’m going to breed an athletic, nice moving potential upper level event horse, and it’s also going to be in a striking dilute colour! (I shouldn’t say NO event breeder; I suspect this is how Pegasus Pure Gold was produced. Now THAT was a stunning dilute event horse with all the ingredients to be a high level horse.)

I am surprised, though, that you would say that GG is the only double dilute TB stallion approved with a registry. Surely you are aware that Goldmaker has gone through the 70 day test and is approved RPSI Book 1?

[QUOTE=ewells;7276782]
maybe Sartors Showtime will do something
http://www.gestuet-vorwerk.de/index.php?id=90[/QUOTE]

I saw a very striking bay leopard Knapstrupper/TB competing at the Blenheim 3* event this year. Strangely, he had a grey tail.

[QUOTE=AlexS;7294762]
I do believe that you have marketed [XYZ] as being the best of the best - we read other boards you know.

Honestly I am happy to see you market your stallion as middle of the road, and I think this is a change and also more realist.[/QUOTE]

I can see the ads now, “Sorry, we were full of crap. After 20 years, we now admit that our stallion ain’t got no talent or potential at all.” :no: :lol: :cool:

But before you go too far down this road you might want to do a quick overview of the very top farms in North American, and in Europe, including those whose owners have millions and millions to spend on the very best of everything, best bloodlines (supposedly), best trainers, best riders, best show venues, etc. Percentage wise, most stallions don’t do anywhere near as well as people assume. And more on point, very few people have the money to get a horse in the right hands, at the right competitions, over the right length of time, to show the world what all the stallion (or his offspring) can do. A performance record is a reflection of talent and money, lots of money… lots and lots of it.

Take an objective look at all of these acclaimed, high profile, highly touted stallions owned by wealthy farms. Many of them never did more than their stallion testing. Many of them had one brief moment, and then failed at a performance career. Many of them have been given every possible chance to succeed, both in competition and as a sire, and they have utterly failed. Many have had access to extraordinary mares, and the benefits of registry ties, and still we can look back and see that they were not good producers. A lot of them were never more than slick ads, a stunning facility, registry connections, and the, “we can’t compete him because we’re too busy breeding him” line of baloney. One could make the strong argument that there was no excuse for their lack of brilliance and success other than lack of talent and ability.

When a stallion is owned by one of us “regular folks” of modest means, it’s not at all surprising that there isn’t some huge performance record. There are very finite limits to what most people can afford to spend on the performance career of a breeding stallion, especially in the 2013 market. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that the stallion lacks talent and potential.

I think there is an upside to diversity and having options. Over time the market place will be the ultimate test. If we limited available stallions to only those owned by people with huge check books, who can afford the best riders and trainers, and all of the rest of what it takes so show these days, we’d all be screwed. Wealthy people get it wrong every bit as often as the rest of us. And it isn’t a colored vs. solid thing. Hell, there are registries full of highly touted solid colored stallions that - over time - proved to be extremely mediocre at stud. Heck, many of the stallions that people rave about today, they will wish they’d avoided given a few years of hindsight.

But, other than the foregoing, I really have no opinion on the matter :lol:

I am surprised, though, that you would say that GG is the only double dilute TB stallion approved with a registry. Surely you are aware that Goldmaker has gone through the 70 day test and is approved RPSI Book 1?

I am very much aware that he did go through the 70 day test and perhaps this is splitting hairs here, but he isnt JC registered so it definately limits what mares he can be bred to for those foals to get papers. And I would really be interested in hearing what his foals are doing out there as he has quite a few on the ground already with his previous owners. Lovely stallion - dont get me wrong and its a shame his papers were pulled way back when. I was involved in that exact same fiasco with Lauren Efford of Goldhope Farm so I walked in the exact same shoes as well. Goldmaker is very much a different “type” of stallion than Guaranteed Gold is and will appeal to a different market the same as any bay or chestnut stallion is. Just because they are both cremello stallions doesnt make them the same “type” of stallion, appealing to the same market

I guess in the same way if you have a stallion produced from a Hanoverian sire out of a Hanoverian mare that isnt registered AHA but is RPSI registered instead, do you refer to it as a Hanoverian or an RPSI stallion? Im not sure in the end what they were able to register Goldmaker as - I know his previous owners tried to get APHA papers on him and no idea if they were successful or not and they also looked into PHR papers. All I know is that he does not have his Jockey Club papers or if he still does - its because they werent turned back into the JC when they requested all of them back - mine included - back in 2001 but he no longer has registration status, the same as the other ones that were affected by this mess …

TC, I am genuinely not “picking on” GG. I am merely using this as an example of coloured horses not making their way to the upper levels of sport

Oh I know you’re not :slight_smile: As I mentioned previously I really hope that some dilute - somewhere - makes it to the UL’s in some discipline. It would give a lot of credibility to the fact that being buckskin or palomino is secondary to that individual having enough talent to compete with the very best :slight_smile:

As I mentioned previously I really hope that some dilute - somewhere - makes it to the UL’s in some discipline. It would give a lot of credibility to the fact that being buckskin or palomino is secondary to that individual having enough talent to compete with the very best

My previous post may have gotten lost in this long thread – but there is already a cremello stallion competing at Prix St Georges here in Florida, the 11-year-old German Warmblood stallion ‘Blue Eyed Dream GF’. Limet Hurry (cremello RPSI) competed thru PSG also.

I also find the discussion of percentages interesting. It makes it even more impressive that Nico (pinto Friesian Sporthorse FSA stallion) has produced a Grand Prix offspring (also a pinto FSA.)

My previous post may have gotten lost in this long thread – but there is already a cremello stallion competing at Prix St Georges here in Florida, the 11-year-old German Warmblood stallion ‘Blue Eyed Dream GF’. Limet Hurry (cremello RPSI) competed thru PSG also.

I think it did. That is terrific news! Thanks for bringing mention of both stallions to the forefront once again :slight_smile:

It makes it even more impressive that Nico (pinto Friesian Sporthorse FSA stallion) has produced a Grand Prix offspring (also a pinto FSA.) .

Very cool indeed. I knew of Nico but had no idea he was passing his talent on as well to offspring competing at that level :slight_smile:

What do people consider “upper level”? Would that be PSG or Grand Prix? Would it be at a USEF show, or CDI?

I think I had mentioned several pages ago, Cadence (pinto Friesian/Warmblood cross) showed through Grand Prix, my trainer got her gold medal on him. I’ve seen a few “horses of another color” in the FEI ring now -pintos and dilutes.

Totally agree, few horses make it, more often due to $ and rider ability limitations. The upper levels are HARD! And the vast majority of horses are bays and chestnuts, so that is what we most often see in the show ring.

There was an article in COTH about an Arab/Paint cross whose rider is venturing into Grand Prix - so there you have unusual color AND breeding :cool:

There are quality “color breeders” - and quality doesn’t mean they have to go to the top levels - most owners don’t have the means to go all the way. MOST of us are middle age women who have to work for a living :winkgrin:

(if you have google chrome - it will give you an option to translate pages - I find it super handy!)

When it comes to breeding for color - Appaloosas (or knabstruppers) is tricky.

Your horse is a leopard because she is heterozyous for the LP gene - same with this stallion. Put together they may produce a leopard - or they may produce a solid - OR they may produce a snow cap or few spot - which is the result of homozygous LP.

While I enjoy the appaloosa breed, and the spotted patterns, personally - I personally do not enjoy the looks of few spot appies - especially if they have pink skin around the eyes and face. Further horses that are homozygous for LP have a much greater risk of being night blind (CSNB - "congenital stationary night blindness).

If your goal is to produce something that looks like this:

Leopard

Your best bet is to cross something like THIS to something like THIS.

This is a great source for anyone considering breeding horses with the LP pattern:

http://www.appaloosaproject.co/

Chesterfield

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbGDVNcexW8&feature=relmfu

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=CHESTERFIELD&sex=f&color=&dog_breed=KWPN&birthyear=200x&birthland

Note that the grandsire is a (gasp!) Saddlebred.
This one:
http://content.yudu.com/Library/A1nueu/NovDec09WarmbloodsTo/resources/41.htm

Also an ancestor of Cream On Top
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?z=NOkIUi&d=cream+on+top&x=36&y=10
http://www.creamontop.nl/

Oh, dear,
How untraditional; yet successful.

Carry on

To clarify a few things regarding Goldmaker…

  1. He does not have “quite a few” foals on the ground. I can come up with 12, which does not come any where close to the numbers other dilutes have produced. Of the 4 recorded with USEF, 2 are the same horse (gotta love USEF :rolleyes: ), I have no idea what the other gelding is doing and the mare had a gorgeous foal in 2013. There only 4 of performance age listed on Allbreedpedigree. Those would be the ones out competing, and of those 2 are broodmares.

  2. As he is approved in Book 1 with the RPSI, ANY mare he breeds that is approved/approvable (the same with any other WB registry) will have a foal able to be registered with RPSI. Example - Galatea RHR, by Goldmaker out of a Weltmeyer mare (this one was one of the top 5 Gold Premium foals for the RPSI in 2012).

The thing about Bailey (Goldmaker) is that no one ever went on and on about him being the bestest this or rarest that or the first blah blah. He is a damn nice horse, and the one I chose to buy after looking at ALL of the others available at the time. The JC status only affects those breeding for JC horses. And AQHA - which was an option for QH mares until someone made a stink about it (I always thought it was fear of the competition personally, but that’s JMnotveryHO). I’m guessing that if his current owners wanted to go back at the AQHA, he could get back in that without too much trouble, after all, he IS a thoroughbred. And no amount of ‘but his papers were revoked’ changes that fact.

As far as the OP, there are a very few colored horses in the grand scheme of things. Would I love to see one in what I consider the U/L, absolutely! But it does take a lot of time and money to get there, even for the non-colored varieties. And the fact that the comparative numbers are so small makes it even harder.

I LOVE Chesterfield! Where might I find this Landino horse, her sire??? It says he competed in the US, is he still here somewhere???

To add - looks like Ultra Nyx is a broodmare as well.

[QUOTE=Kinsella;7296496]
To clarify a few things regarding Goldmaker…

  1. He does not have “quite a few” foals on the ground. I can come up with 12, which does not come any where close to the numbers other dilutes have produced. Of the 4 recorded with USEF, 2 are the same horse (gotta love USEF :rolleyes: ), I have no idea what the other gelding is doing and the mare had a gorgeous foal in 2013. There only 4 of performance age listed on Allbreedpedigree. Those would be the ones out competing, and of those 2 are broodmares.

  2. As he is approved in Book 1 with the RPSI, ANY mare he breeds that is approved/approvable (the same with any other WB registry) will have a foal able to be registered with RPSI. Example - Galatea RHR, by Goldmaker out of a Weltmeyer mare (this one was one of the top 5 Gold Premium foals for the RPSI in 2012).

The thing about Bailey (Goldmaker) is that no one ever went on and on about him being the bestest this or rarest that or the first blah blah. He is a damn nice horse, and the one I chose to buy after looking at ALL of the others available at the time. The JC status only affects those breeding for JC horses. And AQHA - which was an option for QH mares until someone made a stink about it (I always thought it was fear of the competition personally, but that’s JMnotveryHO). I’m guessing that if his current owners wanted to go back at the AQHA, he could get back in that without too much trouble, after all, he IS a thoroughbred. And no amount of ‘but his papers were revoked’ changes that fact.

As far as the OP, there are a very few colored horses in the grand scheme of things. Would I love to see one in what I consider the U/L, absolutely! But it does take a lot of time and money to get there, even for the non-colored varieties. And the fact that the comparative numbers are so small makes it even harder.

I LOVE Chesterfield! Where might I find this Landino horse, her sire??? It says he competed in the US, is he still here somewhere???[/QUOTE]

I actually spoke with his owner today. What a shame that someone has decided to slam him in ways that aren’t even true. His owner is a class act, and if I had the money/space/time (which I might here soon enough) I do believe I might get Viking a new playmate.

I think that whole “not everyone has the money to compete their stallion” mantra is a bit old. Honestly, if your animal has the talent I am sure there is some one around that could take the horse to a respectable level. How many young riders can’t afford that type of horse, would love to have a horse like that, and could compete the horse to 4th level or to 1.3m at least.
Choosing not to compete a stallion is one thing as some stallions have already proven themselves in completion or offspring already, but many stallions have not done much and the money excuse is not always a valid one for me.

“I think that whole “not everyone has the money to compete their stallion” mantra is a bit old. Honestly, if your animal has the talent I am sure there is some one around that could take the horse to a respectable level. How many young riders can’t afford that type of horse, would love to have a horse like that, and could compete the horse to 4th level or to 1.3m at least.
Choosing not to compete a stallion is one thing as some stallions have already proven themselves in completion or offspring already, but many stallions have not done much and the money excuse is not always a valid one for me.”

I don’t disagree about getting stallions out showing. If fact it is a marketing tool that is really important if you are offering your stallion to the public. That being said there are stallions that are used primarily as breeding stock for the owner’s own mares and the owner may feel that the horse is doing what they feel is important by covering their own mares rather than spending money showing and training. If those foals that are being produced are being marketed then it is also valuable to get the stallion out with a good show record to increase the value of the foals that are produced. Some stallions have had injuries that prevent them from being trained further which is not up to the owner at that point.

I know of one farm in particular that breeds warmbloods and stands several very nice stallions where the owner is not interested in doing more than getting approvals and testing done and then they are not really ridden or campaigned at any level. I suppose that he feels that that is enough. I don’t know how full his bookings are or if the increase in breeding fees would justify the cost of training and showing but clearly some breedings are happening and the offspring are doing well at shows at all ages.

I really think that many of the stallions out there that are getting limited breedings would make lovely geldings. Sometimes I think the idea of having a stallion is is more of an ego thing than the best choice for the breeder. In some cases the cost of keeping a stallion to use for breeding is much higher (depending on the amount of mares bred to him each year) than actually finding other suitable mates with a live foal guarantee that are well marketed and add value to the foal not just genetically but for their reputation.

My uncle was a backyard breeder of QHs he had several stallions that he kept on property that were nice, kind, tolerant horses, I’m sure that he didn’t pay a lot for them and am guessing they had little to no show experience. They were not used outside of the farm and while they sired a few ok QH. My uncle wasn’t really worried or interested in the genetics I don’t think and we kids all rode anything we could get our hands on. Personally I think what he bred was irresponsible and that many of those horses could have been either bred more selectively, or better yet not bred at all. It was fun playing with the babies, but I don’t think that is enough to justify the breedings. I love my uncle and he is a good person but in the matter of these horses I feel that the choices contributed to the lack of quality that is often seen in people’s back yard.

I don’t think that anyone who chooses to keep a stallion without a huge marketing budget and perfect riders are necessarily in the wrong, but I do think that there are a lot more stallions that could have better more productive lives as geldings than breeding 2 or 3 mares a year and not really improving anything in the process. The goals of a breeding operation are up to the individual and some people simply don’t want the hassle of booking and handling a stallion’s breeding career. I just wonder what makes them keep a stallion in the first place if this is the case.