Where are Unusual Colored Horses in the Show Ring?

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=Cartier;7297584]
Boy, we really are not coming from the same place. We are miles apart on even the most basic terms. For example, our definition of a “popular stallion” is vastly different than yours. We took our definition from the registry Breeders Guides we have going back over the past decade, based on (reported) numbers of breedings a stallion gets . So you and I are talking apples and roller skates here.

But since you want to go in this direction, just wondering, in your mind, if an intact male horse jumps 1.30m does that make it worthy of breeding? Or is it 1.40m? Or 1.50m? What exactly is your criteria for a breeding stallion?[/QUOTE]

Once again, citing people in the US that are making poor breeding decisions is not a reason to make poor breeding decisions. If people want to breed pretty hunters- great. I am talking about jumpers, dressage and eventers.
And to stay on topic, this conversation is about stallion owners getting some sort of record on their breeding stallions to prove they are worthy of breeding. If they have proven offspring, that works too. But the level of the competion, pedigree and offspring results depend on the sport horse breeding program and goals. If I am shooting for local jumpers, I would want the goal of at least 1.30 and I would shoot for higher to get that. 1.4m and up is what the sire should be capable of.
If you want to breed pretty horses because they sell, great.
Once again this is a Sport horse forum based around jumping, dressage eventing and hunters, so to be relevant, the goals should be based on performance, with goals being higher than the average horse that is available for 1k.

[Cartier]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;7297598]
Once again, citing people in the US that are making poor breeding decisions is not a reason to make poor breeding decisions. If people want to breed pretty hunters- great. I am talking about jumpers, dressage and eventers.
And to stay on topic, this conversation is about stallion owners getting some sort of record on their breeding stallions to prove they are worthy of breeding. If they have proven offspring, that works too. But the level of the completion, pedigree and offspring results depend on the sport horse breeding program and goals. If I am shooting for local jumpers, I would want the goal of at least 1.30 and I would shoot for higher to get that. 1.4m and up is what the sire should be capable of.
If you want to breed pretty horses because they sell, great.
Once again this is a Sport horse forum based around jumping, dressage eventing and hunters, so to be relevant, the goals should be based on performance, with goals being higher than the average horse that is available for 1k.[/QUOTE]

I can’t see where anyone disagrees with you here “Once again, citing people in the US that are making poor breeding decisions is not a reason to make poor breeding decisions.” But isn’t this a bit like asking, “When did you stop beating your wife?”

In my experience, when we throw around “should” and “must” in the context of what we think the other guys ought to be doing, we can miss what we need to attend to.

I don’t want to be telling others what they “should” do. I think that most breeders are not trying to change the world. Rather, they are breeding to produce “a product” that will sell. It is not something that we do, but I do not judge people if that is their business plan.

In the context of this thread, there seems to be the perception that stallions have extensive performance careers, and as a fact, even very popular stallions (in terms of the numbers of breedings they get per year) do not have much of a performance career, if any.

I think it is fair to ask how you make breeding decisions, and even inquire further about how often you get it right. My reasoning is this: sometimes things sound good in theory, and the “right path” seems so simple, but when you actually do it, you see how much more complex the issue is.

Now, I have no idea what your breeding program is, maybe you have none, or maybe you feel you will be attacked if you say anything. So, I can tell you a bit about what we do, though we are such low volume breeders, it hardly amounts to much. We took a starting point, listened to registry officials, and breeders, and semen dealers… and made a few decisions. We kept what we thought was a good step forward… and took the time to let what we’d bred mature, so we could get a sense of the strengths and weaknesses of what we’d produced. In the past 15 years or so we have refined our focus a bit, and found a niche where we can enjoy ourselves, and still afford to do other things. We do value athletic ability… and performance is important, but so is pedigree and the production record of the pedigree.

Was curious about this quote of yours, “… is about stallion owners getting some sort of record on their breeding stallions to prove they are worthy of breeding. If they have proven offspring, that works too.”

If the stallion has no performance career, but has offspring that do well, doesn’t that mean breeders were using a stallion with “no performance career” who turned out to be a good choice when all was said and done?

[JWB]

My take on color is that I don’t desire it enough to pay extra for color. There seems to be a “mark up” based on a purty-color that even for me, a card carrying ammy who wants a kind mid-level horse to take me around, can’t justify. I was able to pay LESS for a fully registered plain bay 2-year old sired by a “local” GP/ open jumper stallion, out of a really nice producing broodmare (with offspring out competing and winning) than for a similarly aged, half-branded dilute foal sired by a stallion with little performance record out of a mare who’d never done anything either.

I think dilutes are really pretty. I’d love to have a buckskin some day, but my dollars are stretched thin enough as it is, so I’m going to buy the best horse I can with my money regardless of color. I suppose if there are still people out there willing to pay more based on color though, people will continue to put color first in their breeding programs.

[JWB]

My take on color is that I don’t desire it enough to pay extra for color. There seems to be a “mark up” based on a purty-color that even for me, a card carrying ammy who wants a kind mid-level horse to take me around. I was able to pay LESS for a fully registered plain bay 2-year old sired by a “local” GP/high open jumper stallion, out of a really nice producing broodmare (with offspring out competing and winning) than for a similarly aged, half-branded dilute foal sired by a stallion with little performance record out of a mare who’d never done anything either.

I think dilutes are really pretty. I’d love to have a buckskin some day, but my dollars are stretched thin enough as it is, so I’m going to buy the best horse I can with my money regardless of color. I suppose if there are still people out there willing to pay more based on color though, people will continue to put color first in their breeding programs.

[TrueColours]

I think it is fair to ask how you make breeding decisions, and even inquire further about how often you get it right. My reasoning is this: sometimes things sound good in theory, and the “right path” seems so simple, but when you actually do it, you see how much more complex the issue is.

Agree. Again. 100%

I suppose if there are still people out there willing to pay more based on color though, people will continue to put color first in their breeding programs. .

Once upon a time this may have been the case, but not now, IMO. It now boils down to 2-3-5 youngsters of similar ability, appeal, price, movement, temperament, etc. Some are bay, some are chestnut and maybe a dilute and/or pinto in there and in many cases, the buyer opts for the “different” looking one based on their own set of criteria and own dreams of what they have always wanted to buy and ride. Yes - I have some of my youngsters that do have a premium price attached to them - the same as any breeder / seller does because I really like everything about that youngster but overall - the same price points give or take a few minimal dollars, are the same for weanlings, yearlings, etc for all breeders that are producing a comparable quality product

[stoicfish]

If the stallion has no performance career, but has offspring that do well, doesn’t that mean breeders were using a stallion with “no performance career” who turned out to be a good choice when all was said and done?

Sure. But many stallions traditionally got test mares or a small group of mares to start with. They are not openly marketed or final approval till there offspring showed talent. That is a longer road but probably a better one since that is the final goal -the offspring. That is why I pointed it out. But buying an average horse and making excuses about it’s lack of ability by not competing it and then marketing it publically and with the goal of as many breeding’s as possible is not going to win my respect or be a good strategy for better horses.

In the context of this thread, there seems to be the perception that stallions have extensive performance careers, and as a fact, even very popular stallions (in terms of the numbers of breedings they get per year) do not have much of a performance career, if any.

I didn’t say extensive. I said a record that showed some sort of practical ability. And if you follow the links the of well respected registries I listed, you will see most 80% of those stallions have a show record to mid to UL.

If you are talking marketing alone and not about breeding better sport horses, that is a worthy discussion also. The business model is to give people what they want to buy and to do so with the most profit, least cost input and with in the regulatory confinements or at least don’t get caught. I do that type of thinking to earn the money I blow on horses. That thinking is absolutely required to stay in business but it alone does not have the goal of a better horse, it has the goal of marketing, knowledgeable or serious riders/buyers want results in the ring and usually don’t patron these types of breeders.

[Cartier]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;7297694]
But buying an average horse and making excuses about it’s lack of ability by not competing it and then marketing it publically and with the goal of as many breeding’s as possible … [/QUOTE]

Privately I am not disagreeing with you, and I don’t know anyone who is, but can you see how much judgment you have in what you are writing here? It comes across that you have an agenda related to some particular breeder or stallion, and you have assessed that they are “doing it wrong.” I could throw darts at all sorts of popular stallions that fit your criteria… but why? If you don’t like the product, don’t buy it.

@stoicfish;7297694

but it alone does not have the goal of a better horse…

You must be young, because this altruistic goal of “acting for the sake of improving things in general” is, sadly, something people lose over the years. I think most breeders breed to make money… this is true across the board, whether breeding gold fish or giraffes. Arthur and I started with the goal of producing a team horse. In a general way that is still our goal, but we are practical about the likelihood of achieving the goal, and we do not expect or demand that others have our goal.

[crosscreeksh]

[QUOTE=exvet;7296887]
I don’t think that anyone who chooses to keep a stallion without a huge marketing budget and perfect riders are necessarily in the wrong, but I do think that there are a lot more stallions that could have better more productive lives as geldings than breeding 2 or 3 mares a year and not really improving anything in the process. The goals of a breeding operation are up to the individual and some people simply don’t want the hassle of booking and handling a stallion’s breeding career. I just wonder what makes them keep a stallion in the first place if this is the case.

Well I’ll try to answer this one but in the end it comes down to , ‘because I can’ which I’m sure will just thrill everyone I have a stallion. He is now 7. I have two long yearlings by him and both mares are due this spring (repeat breedings). I have not bred any outside mares at all. I have had quite a few requests to breed to him from both those with the same breed and those who just want to breed their mare (other breed) to my guy because of this, that or another reason. Mostly people approach me with interest to breed to my stallion because of his behavior/disposition. I did compete him and plan to do it again; but, have taken a hiatus from showing. He’s working second/third level and has shown through second.

I have multiple reasons for not standing him to the public but the greatest reason is I have a full-time job/career which prevents me from catering to mare owners in the way I feel is appropriate. For that reason I simply don’t try. When I have explained this to those who inquire they always want to tell me that they’re different, they’re a good mare owner, easy to work with, etc. I don’t doubt that they are but I simply cannot drop everything and whisk him off to the stallion station (would take me 3 hours) to get him collected when a mare owner beckons. In order to breed my mares, I actually synchronize them and have been very lucky to have only had to breed each of them one time each year that they were bred.

I have my bronze and silver medals. I am not made of cash. I will show my stallion at recognized shows again when he’s ready for FEI. It makes no sense for me to do otherwise. I have a gelding that I can get my showing fix on; but, to be honest I’m kind of liking saving the dough.

So why do I have a stallion? I’ve had horses all my life. I’m a vet and for the first part of my career my focus was theriogenology (reproduction). I back/train my own and sought out to find a breed that suited all of my interests. I found it and after having great difficulty in breeding my mares to the one stallion (imported) that I felt really had merit (this was before the availability of frozen) I decided I would simply have to reproduce my own. The offspring are intended for me and my family. Both of my kids ride (now 20 and 17). I also do intend to sell one or two but only after we’ve started them and have put some show miles on them. We intend to keep a few over the years as replacement mounts for ourselves.

I selected this path because I know the bloodlines, have had several of the breed prior to delving into having my own stallion, and know what I want, not only to ride but to train. By sticking with the bloodlines and the individuals I have, there really have been few surprises. Being the only test dummy who also has a ‘real’ career which supports my habit (addiction) it is extremely important that I have what I can ride. My stallion is the grandson of a mare I owned, backed/trained and showed. I’ve done the same with he and a few of his siblings. He is a known entity to me. It’s too soon to tell if what he produces is going to be as easy but so far I can tell you that they truly are exactly what I was hoping for and look forward to starting them. He improved on both mares which already had proven their value to me as kids mounts and/or show stock which includes winning in breed classes.

I love backing/starting and training. I have no desire to do it professionally. As stated multiple times I already have a career I love. I don’t want to give that up; but, I also feel just as committed to riding and training. Until the infirmities of old age prevent me from doing so, I see no happiness for me in stopping riding. Could I continue to ride if I geld my stallion? Sure; but, I don’t want to geld my stallion. He is a perfect gentleman. My daughter rides him without issue. The whole family has no trouble handling him. He travels well in mixed company. He performs in more than one discipline. I obviously feel he is a very good example of his breed (no make than an excellent example of his breed), true to the standard and is competitive for an amateur who competes locally/regionally.

Is owning a stallion all about my ego trip? Probably it is; but, I feel I’ve given other reasons of merit for me to do so. I have a high stress job. I make my money and choose to spend it the way I want. I view my hobby in the same light. Am I flooding the world with unwanted horses? I don’t think so. Would my stallion be better off a gelding? Well by what measuring stick? He is not on solitary confinement. He does spend his time out in turnout 24/7. He gets daily interaction and is ridden at least 4-5 days a week as my schedule allows. I have the education and professional experience handling stallions, doing the breeding, assisting in the foaling and have backed/trained my own horses, showing them to PSG (so far). I want to go further and I want to do it on MY breed. I feel this stallion is my best chance to do so. I also feel that if for any reason I am unsuccessful I have produced youngstock which at least based on conformation and gaits provide me with just as much prospects for success in my riding as does he. I see no reason to buy a horse when what I want is in my own backyard and the future shows much promise with what I’m producing in it as well.

Could my stallion do better if campaigned by a pro and marketed? I’m absolutely sure he could but again this is my hobby. I am pursuing my dream. I work damn hard to pay for it and so far in this country it is perfectly legal for me to do so (my version of following the American Dream). Best of all, like the example given in the post to which I’m responding, I don’t care what other people think. As long as I can afford to do it, I will.

I have committed to breeding one outside mare next spring. It is a very special circumstance. Unless my professional pursuits change or my daughter decides she wants to get more serious with the horse business, I doubt I will ever stand my stallion to the public. Now to take this back to the OP’s question, my stallion is not ‘of color’ though he is sabino. One of my mares is a dilute. She produced a bay last time but part of the fun of breeding is considering the possibilities of what she might produce in the future. If I get ‘color’ it will be icing on the cake; but, more importantly the cake is already breeding damn fine on its own merit without the need for icing Again I feel there is merit to this stallion; there is merit to breed this stallion; there is merit to me owning this stallion even if the only judging panel lives in my house :yes:[/QUOTE]

EXCELLENT post, explanation and reasoning!! I totally agree. Welcome to America guys. We are doing no one any harm, adding some nice horses to the world and enjoying ourselves. No Olympic aspirations??? WHO CARES!! We CAN, so we DO!!! Thank you OP for laying it out.

[JB]

[QUOTE=JWB;7297636]
My take on color is that I don’t desire it enough to pay extra for color. There seems to be a “mark up” based on a purty-color that even for me, a card carrying ammy who wants a kind mid-level horse to take me around, can’t justify. I was able to pay LESS for a fully registered plain bay 2-year old sired by a “local” GP/ open jumper stallion, out of a really nice producing broodmare (with offspring out competing and winning) than for a similarly aged, half-branded dilute foal sired by a stallion with little performance record out of a mare who’d never done anything either.

I think dilutes are really pretty. I’d love to have a buckskin some day, but my dollars are stretched thin enough as it is, so I’m going to buy the best horse I can with my money regardless of color. I suppose if there are still people out there willing to pay more based on color though, people will continue to put color first in their breeding programs.[/QUOTE]

Many share your perspective It comes down to marketing and worth. There are many items I see people paying top dollar for that are no better, quality-wise, than the average or no-name brand, but they want Abercromie jeans and not Levi. Everyone has their “thing” on which they are willing to spend more $$.

I love color. Absolutely love it. I really want a spotted Hunter. Badly. But if it came down to $10k for a weanling vs an equal quality bay for $4k, you bet I’m going for the $4k foal LOL But a $2k difference? Yeah, I might take that plunge, depending on how it stretched the budget.

[crosscreeksh]

FWIW…Fasig-Tipton, the large TB auction company did a study years ago…before we even thought about palomino, buckskin, cremello, or overo Thoroughbreds…and came to the conclusion that a gray TB horse going through the sales brought an average price 65% HIGHER than any other colored horse of the same pedigree quality!! Meaning…people DO pay more for an odd colored horse!!

[armchair_Quaterback]

[QUOTE=crosscreeksh;7297774]
FWIW…Fasig-Tipton, the large TB auction company did a study years ago…before we even thought about palomino, buckskin, cremello, or overo Thoroughbreds…and came to the conclusion that a gray TB horse going through the sales brought an average price 65% HIGHER than any other colored horse of the same pedigree quality!! Meaning…people DO pay more for an odd colored horse!![/QUOTE]

Ummm, I don’t consider gray to be an odd color…

[vineyridge]

There is a very productive eventing stallion in the UK who is pinto. In fact, there may be more than just Upton’s Deli Circus.

[Kinsella]

I guess me and a few others are the odd women out as we ARE breeding to improve quality not just keep the status quo. I personally am breeding for Derby level hunters or GP level jumpers, depending on the mare. My stallion has done both and is from a pedigree that has produced both. The mares I am breeding are horses that have done at minimum Junior hunters or for the jumpers, well, they both competed to Grand Prix. What I know is that if I breed for the UL of either discipline, and those foals don’t quite get there, they have somewhere to go. If you start with a horse that is limited to being a 3’ horse, where are those offspring going if they can’t do 3’? Yeah, someone’s backyard or the truck north or south. I don’t want to produce for either of those markets personally. It just seems like most think you can’t have both - amateur friendly and UL. You can, you just have to work at it and NOT be happy with status quo.

And back to the color part of the equation… I am breeding a mare to Bailey this year. That foal has a future planned out and I assure you it doesn’t involve an extended stay at 3’. (Yes, I realize anything can happen, but I’m not planning for that)

[TrueColours]

I think most breeders breed to make money… this is true across the board, whether breeding gold fish or giraffes.

This also goes back to a thread in this forum last year where the question was asked:

“Do ANY Stallion Owners qualify a mare in any way, shape or form before sending semen out to the Mare Owner or are they basically willing to breed to anything with a uterus?”

and one of our VERY well respected and well known SO’s came on the thread, who stands several very reputable stallions and said:

" I absolutely qualify every single mare I send semen to. As long as the owner’s check clears, I send semen "

So there you have it. At the very top of their games, the criteria for sending semen boils down to one thing and one thing only

$$$

And before anyone throws darts, unless you have have walked a mile in the SO’s boots, money is what allows ALL of us to open ours doors each and every day and nothing else …

That foal has a future planned out and I assure you it doesn’t involve an extended stay at 3".

You DID mean 3’ and not 3" - right?!

[JB]

[QUOTE=armchair_Quaterback;7297900]
Ummm, I don’t consider gray to be an odd color…[/QUOTE]

It may have to do with the fact that the young gray horse tends to be really attractive at that stage of graying

[JB]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7297924]
There is a very productive eventing stallion in the UK who is pinto. In fact, there may be more than just Upton’s Deli Circus.[/QUOTE]
Yes, several of the ones I listed in my earlier post listed several stallions who are or who produce Eventers

[Lord_Helpus]

[QUOTE=Fred;7297025]
Apropos of the subject, one of my homebreds, a pinto - by A Fine Romance qualified for the Royal Winter Fair this year in the Adult Amateurs 18-35.
Last year, in his first year of showing, he qualified for the Royal Winter Fair in the Children’s Hunter Division.
By A Fine Romance, out of a pinto mare by Hallmark, he is a chestnut pinto, named Rodeo Drive.
He competed very well, winning the Stake class, 3rd in another OF, and finishing up Reserve Champion of the division.
I would think that winning in the AA division would be considered ‘Mid-Level’
Here is his winning round:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151653060817554&set=vb.575272553&type=2&theater

I didn’t do a scientific study, but of the approx 15-20 horses in the division, all of which had to qualify to be there, I noticed two pintos, 2 greys, and the rest were bays, browns, chestnuts and no dilutes.
Given the number in the entire population I would say the pintos were statistically well represented in terms of percentage and results.
The judge, IIRC was Danny Robertshaw.[/QUOTE]

LOLOL. While reading your post the name Danny Robertshow came immediately to mind. He is an excellent judge who knows what he is looking at and EVERY horse who performs well in front of him gets the ribbon it deserves.

I capitalized “every” because in the 80’s Danny trained and rode in the open working hunter division a pinto WB named Newspaper (the horse was black and white and read all over. ) and owned by Mardi Fawcett. So, of all the judges out there, Danny is one of the very few who is color blind and treats all horses the same.

That doesn’t mean that Fred’s baby was any the less deserving, but it does mean that he was 100% judged on his merits.

Danny is, however, an anomaly in the hunter world.

I do not think that grays have ever been considered to be horses of “color” in the hunter world. I do not knnow of any hunter who was bred specifically for his gray color. 99% of currently registered gray TB’s have The Tetrarch —> Roi Herode in their pedigree. And 100% go back to Royal Mare (1685). Since I have had many gray horses, I love to trace that color back through the generations, since, for a horse to be gray it MUST have a gray sire or dam. (But I digress…)

[MuskokaLakesConnemaras]

Just read your tag line Lord Helpus. Love it

[Dressagelvr]

What I know is that if I breed for the UL of either discipline, and those foals don’t quite get there, they have somewhere to go. If you start with a horse that is limited to being a 3’ horse, where are those offspring going if they can’t do 3’? Yeah, someone’s backyard or the truck north or south. I don’t want to produce for either of those markets personally. It just seems like most think you can’t have both - amateur friendly and UL. You can, you just have to work at it and NOT be happy with status quo.

This is such an important statement, IMO. Why is it that so many people think UL = pro ride? Also, an equally important point is that so many horses bred for UL don’t make it. When your goal is average and you don’t hit even that, then where do those horses wind up?? Nobody wants to think about it.

[JWB]

I so agree with the statements about breeding for the highest levels (and you can still produce ammy friendly). My coach’s string of lesson horses is primarily made up of advanced level event horses. You can watch these horses pack around a beginner who’s learning to post one day, teach a more advanced student a proper half pass the next day, and still jump students around courses! These are horses that have competed successfully at the 3* level!

I just think that the colored horses get to breed a lot more and for more money than a similarly talented/proven horse and it kind of makes me scratch my head. In these parts there is a very cute (bay) TB stallion who for lack of the owner’s budget doesn’t have much of a competition record to speak of. He’s essentially unproven, but seems like a nice guy. When I’ve seen him out, I’ve been impressed with him and I often wish he had a show record or offspring with a good upper level competition record. I’m scared off by his still unproven status. He gets a few breedings a year at $500 or so…

Just a quick google search of cremello tb stallions who have done about the same or less than this stallion - their stud fees are double or triple. It just doesn’t add up for me, but like I said, I guess people are buying so obviously it’s worth it to some.