Blue Eyed Dream GF - bred by me - was the FEI High Point Champion yesterday. When we breed horses and sell them, we have no possibility to enforce their future any longer. It all depends on who buys a horse and what they are doing with it. Blue Eyed Dream GF went to a home that is showing him. Abendgold GF and Day Dream GF have been showing or are still showing successfully in USA too. Mirabeau is or was successfully showing in Canada. But many that have the same high potential went to normal riders that just like to have a great horse for their hobby riding. That does not make the horse bad, not the breeder, nor the owner, nor the sire or dam of it.
^^^
This is all SO very true …
Once upon a time when I started out in the breeding business, I had dreams that I’d look out my window each morning and see a steady parade of MO’s lining up to breed to my stallion(s), and they’d all have the likes of Saphire, Rox Dene, etc to breed and these babies would all end up at the top of their games and people everywhere would be saying “Oh LOOK! There’s another hunter/jumper/dressage horse/eventer by X X! I want one JUST LIKE HIM! Does anyone have the breeder’s/SO’s number so I can call right away before they are all GONE?!”
Then, of course, brutal reality hits … 
Its all about money. Money to pay the bills, Money to keep your doors open each and every day. Money to fix stuff and to buy new stuff. Money to keep your business going into the next year …
The stud fee is the same whether I get old Dobbin from up the road, or a top level hunter/jumper/eventer/dressage horse. Quite frankly, I get more repeat business and referral business from the people that simply wanted a backyard pleasure horse, or one to take to local hunts or schooling shows, or ones that show in Breed Shows or ones that aspire to our Trillium level of showing (B shows) where they can get in and out of there on a weekend without having to take a 2nd mortgage out on their homes to afford their showing habit and where it doesnt consume their lives like showing in the “A” or Gold level shows do. THAT is where my bread and butter of my business is coming from
And its not because that animal is or isnt talented that precludes it from showing in the “UL’s”. Its a conscious choice by the owner to recognize their own limitations - talent, money, time, commitment and/or desire wise - that finds these animals in lower level shows only
And in saying that - for all of the above reasons, I showed a lovely big grey gelding I had some time ago in a local circuit of shows run by local barns. He had all the talent in the world and I used to show in the “A” level shows so we would have been perfectly competitive at that level again. The entry fees were small, the classes were all held on one day, the courses were good, each class winner got a cheque, a ribbon and a bottle of wine that was then opened and shared. By the time the stake class came along, no one cared WHO won anymore (except for bragging rights and that extra coveted bottle of wine!) and I have never had so much fun showing in my life before. I think towards the end we were all slipping glasses of wine to the judge as well and if you made it around without falling off or getting lost, he pinned you. And if you gave him more wine than the rest of the competitors, you probably won too! 
And we all had a blast and came back for more fun the following weekend … 
… and our non riding, non horsey partners were more than happy to come along and sit in the shade and watch us all make idiots out of ourselves and sip wine and jeer and laugh at us with the other non riding spouses and boyfriends … and then drive us all home afterwards
There IS more to life than showing at the “UL’s” …
Yes, we did win several International Hunter Derby classes with Palladio. Now we are basically just enjoying him. We have had two stallions 70-Day Stallion Tested and approved for breeding (one last year and one this year) so that has curbed our show budget. We hope to do some showing with them next year!
[QUOTE=TrotTrotPumpkn;7277057]
Palladio (pinto) stallion Caletto I/ Samber standing at Crestline Farm is a hunter that has competed in/won hunter derbies. I’m not sure he is actively competing anymore (he’s a 1997 model).
One of his sons is at the stallion testing this year I believe.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=stoicfish;7297694]
…
I didn’t say extensive. I said a record that showed some sort of practical ability. And if you follow the links the of well respected registries I listed, you will see most 80% of those stallions have a show record to mid to UL.
If you are talking marketing alone and not about breeding better sport horses, that is a worthy discussion also. The business model is to give people what they want to buy and to do so with the most profit, least cost input and with in the regulatory confinements or at least don’t get caught. I do that type of thinking to earn the money I blow on horses. That thinking is absolutely required to stay in business but it alone does not have the goal of a better horse, it has the goal of marketing, knowledgeable or serious riders/buyers want results in the ring and usually don’t patron these types of breeders.[/QUOTE]
Addressing your first statement, I don’t believe young horse wins to be comparable to FEI wins, and so I disgree with the 80%; my perception is far less at actual competitive performance for stallions in most registries per the current selection and approval / ranking stats.
As to markets, there are niches within the larger ‘sporthorse market’, just as there are niches within the ‘sport car’ market. being the ‘best unusual color producer in NA’ may be a profitable niche; just as being a ‘UL talented producer in NA’ may be a difficult one due to the very high cost input to play with ‘the big boys’ where there is a distinct preference for European-gened, European-bred and raised and trained horses to overcome.
If it is possible to go from coaching to top dressage or jumper in 5-6 generations (fewer if you are looking simply at performance geldings, not breeding horses), why is it ‘unlikely’ to go from rarer color good riding horse to top dressage or jumper in the same generation number? Upgrading is upgrading and the not-quite-good-enough rarer color often has a more lucrative secondary market (by $1,000 or more) compared to basic brown wrapper.
Note that in the 1980’s you could not find a ‘great’ black European bred stallion to use, yet now they are everywhere (remember black is recessive to bay, and doesn’t ‘show’ at all on chestnut) don’t you think some ‘color preference’ was going on in Europe given the dollar-preference for the black horse in the NA market?
Breeders want to maximize their profit. They want to do that producing desirable horses for their market, whatever that market may be.
A lousy breeder produces poor stock consistently, no matter the opportunity given; while a good breeder at least holds the quality started with and a great one upgrades every chance they can.
Those owning rarer colored horses included.
Ok…http://kwpn-na.org/stallions/
I didn’t actually do the math but name the stallions on the list above that didn’t at least compete to mid level? You can discount anything you wish but my statement was to mid level and above. Some of the stallions in the list are too young to be at upper levels but they are out competing. And that was the point.
I consider the young FEI classes to be very informative, possibly not the whole picture but certainly better than no show record. And that was what several poster were suggesting, that very few stallions had a show record at all and my point was there are lots of stallions that shown and proven themselves to some extent.
I don’t think it is fair to ‘out’ stallions that do not meet your specs, though they are well represented in that group. And that also doesn’t mean they are not good sires or may be potentially good sires.
I also didn’t think you were referring to the NA branches of the Euro registries when you talking about the ‘larger’ European books.
The NA versions breed fewer mares by tens than the European books.
Thank you for clarifying that you consider young FEI classes to be informative.
There is a gulf between young same age classes and competing at the upper levels.
Those are handsome horses. Time will prove the younger ones as sires.
In other venues ‘halter’ wins and juvenile wins are not considered in the same scope as ‘Open’ or ‘all-age’ competitions.
You can’t see how fast a horse will race in future or how well they will perform under the stressful training of adult competition off of licensing and young horse …
I agree you must ‘start somewhere’, but proven performance this isn’t; a winning rare colored horse gets the same purse as a plain brother, even if not so royally bred.
-Thread is ‘In the show ring.’ So since many stallions do not compete long careers I look at family and offspring performance records, (not potential or predicted).
I was referring to the links…that I posted.
It is my opinion. So of course I can have preferences. I don’t think everyone will share them but it is the discussion that is of value, not any one persons opinion.
As I said before, it is possible that my local stallion owners and stallions I view as worthy have set a bar that not all stallions or their owners meet.
People can breed to whatever they want, from the fugly next door to Jazz.
One group might just have more success then the other.
I think you might have missed some of the thread, and the reason for my posts.
As far as using pedigree alone, not all horses (many) do not live up to their pedigree. You would see most great stallions with equally successful siblings, and you don’t.
Offspring success is the one thing that you can’t argue with and I don’t. I did say several times that was the proof that mattered above all else.
[QUOTE=stoicfish;7304758]
I was referring to the links…that I posted.
It is my opinion. So of course I can have preferences. I don’t think everyone will share them but it is the discussion that is of value, not any one persons opinion.
As I said before, it is possible that my local stallion owners and stallions I view as worthy have set a bar that not all stallions or their owners meet.
People can breed to whatever they want, from the fugly next door to Jazz.
One group might just have more success then the other.
I think you might have missed some of the thread, and the reason for my posts.
As far as using pedigree alone, not all horses (many) do not live up to their pedigree. You would see most great stallions with equally successful siblings, and you don’t.
Offspring success is the one thing that you can’t argue with and I don’t. I did say several times that was the proof that mattered above all else.[/QUOTE]
I did read every post.
Unfortunately I don’t necessarily think that ‘breeding indexes’ as currently contrived by the various registries have much meaning for predicting success in the upper levels, nor do I think foal to 3 yr old stats or ‘# of sons approved at 2’ have anything to do with UL performance or the transmission of same.
The thread was about unusual colored horses in the show ring. They are there, in numbers likely proportionate to the opportunities they have had with riding and training relative to the percentage of rare colors actually produced.
If you choose to think these successful horses are accidents, not sport-bred, or poorly bred because rare colored horses MUST be a result of poor breeding by people who are not breeding for top sport, that is an interesting position.
I don’t happen to share it.
Brown and bay are very beautiful, in my opinion. That doesn’t make them perform better, though.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7304840]
I did read every post.
Unfortunately I don’t necessarily think that ‘breeding indexes’ as currently contrived by the various registries have much meaning for predicting success in the upper levels, nor do I think foal to 3 yr old stats or ‘# of sons approved at 2’ have anything to do with UL performance or the transmission of same.
The thread was about unusual colored horses in the show ring. They are there, in numbers likely proportionate to the opportunities they have had with riding and training relative to the percentage of rare colors actually produced.
If you choose to think these successful horses are accidents, not sport-bred, or poorly bred because rare colored horses MUST be a result of poor breeding by people who are not breeding for top sport, that is an interesting position.
I don’t happen to share it.
Brown and bay are very beautiful, in my opinion. That doesn’t make them perform better, though.[/QUOTE]
Umm. Not sure what your referring to. I posted stallions with competition records. Like 1.3m and up or 4th level and up. I am not talking about stallion testing or breeding indexes. But those are not a bad start for information,
And I am not saying no color horse has talent. That would be silly. I am saying that trying to introduce and maintain color into a population that doesn’t have it in any numbers requires you to select for the trait color foremost.
Samber was a very nice horse and had talent but because of the lack of mare base to compliment his color, either the color will get somewhat lost or the talent over time. He has a few colored offspring doing well but possibly more non-colored for obvious reasons.
[QUOTE=ToTheNines;7297096]
Fred, dropping in on this thread once in a while because I show a couple of hunter-bred Apps. I love that trip in the video just above. Such an even pace, so relaxed and low, just the right pace for the lines. Moves great, jumps great. Seems to like his job. Just my type! Congratulations to all his people![/QUOTE]
Thank you ToTheNines! - I’d love to see some pics of your hunter bred Apps as well!
And thank you to Lord Helpus, I didn’t know that about Danny Robertshaw showing a pinto back in the day.
I can say that watching one of the classes, and seeing the results overall, there was definitely no colour bias either way. In order to compete in these classes at the Royal Winter Fair, the horses have to qualify, and this is based on competition results over the show season.
The horses placed according to the trip they put in - whether they were pinto or solid, bay, brown, chestnut, grey, or black.
There were no dilutes in the division.
Here are the results for that class, the results for the whole division are on the link.
http://royal.showmanagementsystem.com/scores/get/1350/91
I do think it is important for the sake of credibility, for stallion owners to be able to back up their claims of offspring success with actual names, divisions and results.
One can say their horse produces “solid mid level performers” for example, but without any links there is no proof that this is the case.
It would help the discussion and possibly lessen confusion and misunderstanding if actual results could be listed.
:yes:
[QUOTE=crestline;7302226]
Yes, we did win several International Hunter Derby classes with Palladio. Now we are basically just enjoying him. We have had two stallions 70-Day Stallion Tested and approved for breeding (one last year and one this year) so that has curbed our show budget. We hope to do some showing with them next year![/QUOTE]
Congratulations, crestline, on your success with Palladio, and with the great results of your young stallion at the Stallion Test this year. Well done, and best of luck with them in the future.
[QUOTE=Fred;7305005]
Congratulations, crestline, on your success with Palladio, and with the great results of your young stallion at the Stallion Test this year. Well done, and best of luck with them in the future.[/QUOTE]
Thanks Fred! It’s always a long road but we’re excited about the two Palladio sons we have here. Both made us proud at their testings so that was a great start!
Just icing on the cake
I really don’t understand the prejudice against color. Honestly, how many of you reading this thread have your REAL hair color? It’s just a preference. :lol: I love my pinto Oldenburg and he does anything you aim him at from eventing to trail trials. He always draws attention and a lot of inquiries if he’s for sale or if I have more like him at home. I bred for talent and the winning easy going personality his sire line is known for.
There are more colored horses competing in the eventing world at various levels and in jumpers. I don’t really follow dressage so here is my take on this.
The UK and other countries/continents aren’t so biased against the colored horses and they are more popular there. The colored stallions have started becoming more popular as owners want to have something different or stand out…they want that “Barbie horse” they played with as kids. The vast majority of horse owners out there are people making their dreams come true. If that dream is a Barbie horse, a horse of a different color from the wizard of oz, so be it. The vast majority of this world can’t afford to just buy and upper level horse, and most don’t even have those aspirations…they want their dream.
A pissing match over who is better based on the color seems a bit ridiculous. We don’t even do that with our own kids…oh, that kid is better because it’s not a red head etc…
I think the registries could be more helpful with the show record thing etc if they didn’t just say, “ok, you passed your 70 day and you can breed for life, even though you are only 4 and don’t have any show record.” Put some pressure on those stallions with provisional approvals………that become lifetime when they PROVE themselves in the next few years. I noticed that the SBS does this. Do the other registries (I honestly don’t know on this so I’m asking to be educated here)? Horses that get their SBS license at the 70 day testing as young horses MUST meet certain show requirements and scores in the next 2 years (ages 6-7) in order for it to become lifetime (per their website). That makes them get out there and do it and not just sit home and be collected and live a retired life. Heck, if they had the talent to woo people at the testing, why waste those talents? Even TB stallions have to have had a good race record to hit the breeding shed….
Some pinto warmbloods (other than the general ones we know about already in this thread) that have done well and/or are producing horses that do well:
Three of my favorite stallions:
Copabella Visage was bought from France to Aus by Vicki Roycroft in 2003 as a 5yo (he was called Visage van Olmenhoeve. He’s by Limbo who’s a Samber great grandson http://www.copabella.com/detail.php?id=1
http://www.copabella.com/gallery.php?catID=2
Ballan Soso His sire, Baloubet Junior Z, who competes at the highest level internationally (in CSIO ridden by Christine McCrea of the USA) has passed on to him the blood of two of the most important jumping stallions - Baloubet du Rouet and Darco. And from his maternal line has come the necessary injection of Thoroughbred blood (which many horses lack) since his mother (TB) is the daughter of the Thoroughbred Boden’s Ride. Ballan is in the process of becoming an international competition horse in Eventing. He has been competing since 2011 with the rider Sarah Van Hasselt, a member of the Belgian team
http://www.chevaldecouleur.fr/photos-v2/ballan-soso-3.jpg
He has already competed successfully at International level at :
CCI* RAVENNA ITALY CCI* RENSWOUDE NETHERLANDS
CIC* MAARSBERGEN NETHERLANDS CIC* ARVILLE BELGIUM
CIC* CASTENRAY NETHERLANDS CIC* HELVOIRT NETHERLANDS
Utah van de Erpekom, Oldenburg/KWPN bred, approved BWP. By Landetto out of a Calimero/Samber dam. International showjumper ridden by John Whitaker. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9qzFaZdFIs#t=22
Some I found searching:
Flax Lion Stud has Sambertino, and his offspring (both pinto and solid) are doing well. Samaii I knew about and he’s awesome.
http://www.flaxlion.com/uploads/studcard/sambertino_2010_english.pdf
Commander http://logresfarmpintowarmbloods.com/?page_id=5
Camero http://www.hengststation-geling.de/english/camaro.html
Samondo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHprKSLVyI4
James Bont, approved IHW (heavy warmblood), fully Gelderland (harness type) bred, one of the very few left. By Unitas out of a Zakerno mare. Incredible movement http://www.digishots.nl/en/imagebank/foto:van-winkoop-v-james-bont-ruur13l23368.htm?paard=James&FB_Next=Zoeken&page=1
http://www.stalderonde.nl/plaatjes/dekstation/James_Bont_-_laag.jpg
Joepie http://ruachpintosporthorses.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Joepie-1.jpg
Clochard, KWPN bred, approved AES. One of the only KWPN bred coloured stallions who doesn’t have Samber in his pedigree. By Marone NW (international jumper) out of a Gelderland dam http://www.chevaldecouleur.fr/photos-v2/clochard-02.jpg
Glenhill Gold (follow this ISH on FB) https://www.facebook.com/pages/GLENHILL-GOLD/314954333282
Unarosa van Erpekom ( Utah van Erpekom / Querosa van Erpekom )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m7ZcFtTkX8
French colored sporthorse breeding farm.
http://www.chevaldecouleur.fr/en/index02.php?Welcome
As a long-time breeder of show dogs, I will say that breeders who are just trying to produce a popular color (usually one that is a hot commodity for $$) generally don’t produce dogs with the conformation to win in the big rings. When color becomes the main concern, quality usually suffers.
This happened in my breed (American Staffordshire Terriers) with the “Blue” color. It became a huge hit and the demand for Blue pups was extreme. So many breeders just started breeding anything they could get their hands on that would produce the color that the puppy buyers wanted. The breed as a whole suffered…
I breed, ride and show, Knabstruppers, and I breed and ride them because of their great temperaments and willingness to work. The color is just icing on the cake.
I show one (Xavoy Middelsom) at FEI level (PSG/I1) and we are working on GP, he’s a blanket spot with 4 high whites and BIG blaze (sabino basically).
His full brother Xafaire Middelsom, is a leopard spot and is competing at 3rd level in Florida under Matt McLaughlin/Manette Monroe.
The stallion Halifax Middelsom, who is their nephew, is showing 4th level next year and hopefully will go onto FEI in time. He is 8 yrs old. Halifax is is a few spot and homozygous for PATN1 as well as LP (and thus always throws leopard spotted foals from solid mares).
Apart from my Knabstruppers I really don’t see that many spotted horses in our (limited) showing area, I do see quite a few dilutes, (palamino/bucksin, cremello). The horse of unusual color is still a bit new to the show ring, at least around here, so it will take a bit of time for them to establish themselves, but look out they are coming!
MW
Oops I forgot, we also have CS Tinuvel a supressed leopard mare who shows 3rd level, Peony v. Falkenhorst a snowcap mare who shows 3rd level. And there are quite a few others slowly making their way up the ladder!
MW
[QUOTE=pryme_thyme;7292847]
Ooh. I love him. .[/QUOTE]
Loved the photo… but the video was soooo disappointing.
Utah son Ustinov Van Elsenham
[QUOTE=FLIPPED HER HALO;7305801]
Some pinto warmbloods (other than the general ones we know about already in this thread) that have done well and/or are producing horses that do well:
Utah van de Erpekom, Oldenburg/KWPN bred, approved BWP. By Landetto out of a Calimero/Samber dam. International showjumper ridden by John Whitaker. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9qzFaZdFIs#t=22
French colored sporthorse breeding farm.
http://www.chevaldecouleur.fr/en/index02.php?Welcome[/QUOTE]
I have to second Utah Van Erpekom, but I believe he is BWP approved AES and Selle Frances and pretty much accepted by any stud book given his accomplishments which includes multiple Grand Prix wins both under John Whitaker and Ben Mayer(Ben has a Mitsubishi to prove it.) Utah has a son Ustinov van Elsenham who should be doing CCI*** next year. Pictured here
http://libbylawphotography.photoshelter.com/image/I0000LPOBrOmlqw0
CHN-Alex Hua Tian (USTINOV VAN ELSENHAM) 24TH-CIC2* SHOWJUMPING: 2013 GBR-Whatley Manor Gatcombe International Horse Trial (Sunday 22 September) CREDIT: Libby Law COPYRIGHT: LIBBY LAW PHOTOGRAPHY - NZL
