[QUOTE=vineyridge;6469981]
The FEI rules say the Olympics are 4*. The XC course is 4* length, albeit short. The jumps are all 4* breadth and height. The dressage test is a special test for the Olympics.
What makes you think the Olympics are not 4*? Ignorance?[/QUOTE]
I could ask you the same.
The FEI website does not list the Olympics as a 4* event.
It gives the Olympics their own classification.
What makes you think they are a 4* event? Stupidity? Cluelessness? Take your pick.
MW Elim in 2008 in the DRESSAGE phase at Adelaide
Check the horse’s FEI record.
[QUOTE=subk;6469858]
You are both wrong.
Mystery Whiper’s FEI record:
https://data.fei.org/Result/CompetitionSearch.aspx?p=F63AF8E1D3FA3119F75850DFD4271AF449EB634D52610F40E7070607DE65F83ADA07872B2ABD3FCCED536176709F74DE
The correct order of things:
E at Aledaide**** in Nov of 2008
Ryan had a stroke late May of 2009
E at Adedaide**** Nov of 2009
4th at Adelaide****Nov of 2010
So E’d at the 4* level before and after stroke, one 4* top 10 after. He did quite well at the 3* level after the stroke until Ryan’s last 2 events with him where he was E and +20.
He’s lovely and PD does quite well with him and some day he might be a 4* super star, but he is not a confirmed 4* horse.[/QUOTE]
“MW Elim in 2008 in the DRESSAGE phase at Adelaide”
and your point is?..
Well…while I DO think she should have at least been on the list. But low to mid 50s, if she finished on that score would have put them maybe near the top 10. Where Karen finished. Even if we had three rider finish there…it still I do not think would have changed things…just made us closer. That is a bit of crying over nothing in my book. Bottom line, I don’t think we could have put together a team here in the USA that had any better of a chance than the team we sent. In the next 2-4 years…I think it may be different.
I think the US riders rode well. I thought I saw a HUGE improvement in how Tiana rode xc from what I’ve seen in the past. The horse looked better by the end and that girl rode her pants off. Staying in the UK has really upped her game riding fast xc. Stadium all looked well ridden other than Phillip’s uncharacteristic round which I don’t think came from bad riding as much as a tired horse.
I actually think the level of riding in the US is looking really good. We have some outstanding up and comers…fabulous horses and a healthy sport. But as we saw…the rest of the world is also really upping their game. To watch several of the German riders and UK riders was an absolute free clinic in outstanding riding. This Olympics wasn’t our time…but I don’t think I can be doom and gloom either. I think seeing the WEG here and seeing the outstanding riding we saw of the past few day will drive more of our riders to up their game. The hungery riders will find a way to compete in Eurpoe, to improve their skills…and I do think we not that far out of it with the right leadership.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;6470078]
Well…while I DO think she should have at least been on the list. But low to mid 50s, if she finished on that score would have put them maybe near the top 10. Where Karen finished. Even if we had three rider finish there…[/QUOTE]
My point here has NOTHING to do with individual riders or what individuals were picked or not picked. Much less sour grapes. I am only using specific examples to support my contention that it is the underlying theory and focus of the US to dismiss great XC performances and to be unwilling to work with proven XC performers to improve dressage, while instead looking for great dressage horses and crossing fingers and praying for good XC results.
CMP has been harping on dressage scores for 10 years now to the exclusion of other qualities. The praying part doesn’t seem to be working for him. (…hmmm)
From the FEI Rules for Eventing:
Article 540 OLYMPIC GAMES
Every four years, Eventing in the Olympic Games will be organised under
the patronage of the International Olympic Committee (IOC). The Olympic
Three Day Event is for Seniors. It will be conducted at the Four Star level in accordance with the “Special Regulations for Equestrian Events at the
Olympic Games”.
From the FEI Olympic Regulations for the Olympic Games 2012:
Article 621 – RULES FOR THE EVENTING COMPETITION
The Competitions will be conducted according to a special Olympic Format of a 4*star level of difficulty.
These are the technical requirements for a 4* per Annex 3 of the Eventing Rules.
Do I need to quote the Annex as well?
The special format has to do with the two rounds of stadium jumping.
[QUOTE=subk;6469968]
But to answer your question, the last time I got a mailer requesting a donation for the USEF/USET I sent $100 to Colleen Rutledge instead and mailed the Paypal reciept back the the USEF in their postage paid envelope. It was so much fun I’ll probably do it again.[/QUOTE]
Awesome! 
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;6470078]
Well…while I DO think she should have at least been on the list. But low to mid 50s, if she finished on that score would have put them maybe near the top 10. [/QUOTE]
Unfortunately, if we’re referring to Colleen with this statement, it’s incorrect. Colleen and Shiraz have scored 60+, occasionally 70+ at the FEI level for 3* and 4*. Their flatwork has improved, but apparently you have to score under 60 at least once at an FEI event to be on a list.
From what I’ve heard, 60 is the line in the sand, and Colleen hasn’t crossed it yet.
And in my opinion, there needs to be some line in the sand.
I could see 60 being a line to make a team…but not to be put on a training list. I do think we need to improve who we get on the lists and how we divide up the limited grant money (and what we can do to raise more).
Yes CMP may have been harping on dressage to the exclusion of other things. Harping on dressage is not wrong but to the exclusion of the other phases certainly is…and SUBK, I wasn’t disagreeing with you, just using your point about the riders left behind to support that I didn’t think it mattered…we didn’t leave behind anyone who can consistently score low enough in dressage AND jump around (and had a sound horse).
As we saw at WEG 2010 and this Olympics…the sport of eventing perhaps more than ever is a sport of all three phases. You HAVE to be good in all…not just dressage and not just jumping. This has been coming…and is now here. I personally think it is great for the sport…but it does make being competitive internationally even harder.
[QUOTE=Blugal;6469638]
I think the emphasis on dressage is affecting us negatively because we are producing too many dressage superstars who don’t turn out to be good XC horses and riders at CCI*** and above. If we weren’t weeding out so many potentially good XC horses at Prelim and below because they aren’t winning the dressage with scores of 75%, then we might have more Opposition Buzz’s at the top. IMHO ;)[/QUOTE]
Very much agree with this.
One key element of this is that riders have to learn how to ride and persevere with the horse that is in second-last place in dressage at every HT from Novice through Prelim. The future superstar might not be winning at these levels, ever. This means the rider will need to make sure that the owner is on board with the long-term plan.
We also need Team people who can identify future superstar event horses (and not flashy dressage horses) early in their careers. The UK has this with the World Class Equine Pathway.
And the legacy of the CMP years is what exactly? He had his well-compensated position for 20 years and what is there to show for it?
I sent money to Colleen Rutledge too. There’s not a chance I’d donate to USEF, even less so now that I know that it allows chefs d’equipe to hire their girlfriends as assistants. That’s corrupt. No other word for it.
You say ‘in the next 2-4 years’ because there’s currently no program or sound infrastructure in place after 20 YEARS of the CMP regime. It’s 2012 and we’re all still saying that our riders have to go to the UK and Europe to get good. I seem to recall that was one of the things that was supposed to be different under CMP. Let’s hope our new coach rises above the less-than-transparent circumstances of his hiring and builds a real program.
I think we’d do well to set up a system where our riders could get more quality dressage and show jumping miles on horses other than their event horses, too.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;6470120]
Yes CMP may have been harping on dressage to the exclusion of other things. Harping on dressage is not wrong but to the exclusion of the other phases certainly is…and SUBK, I wasn’t disagreeing with you, just using your point about the riders left behind to support that I didn’t think it mattered…we didn’t leave behind anyone who can consistently score low enough in dressage AND jump around (and had a sound horse). [/QUOTE]
Oh, I agree that there wasn’t anyone left behind for the Games that would have won a medal, the problem is we left those horses behind a few years ago. It’s not a secret who gets to advance without (or almost no) career XC faults (this applies to several horses) but not only is there no identifying mechinism to get help where it’s needed they get pushed aside even when there is time to make significant improvement.
But then if you didn’t have a string of horses and access to deep pockets to buy them CMP wasn’t interested either. He wanted to START with good moving and scoring dressage horses and go from there.
I only say next 2-4 years not because of CMPs program but because I do think we have a few horses and riders right now who are on that edge. They got there not because of CMP…but through their own work. Of course…If several of these horses break down…then our prospects are not so good. But there is right now a crop of horses and riders that I can see being competitive in the near future. Not all are in a deep program…and I agree with SUBK…support needs to be given not just to those with a deep string and deep pockets, but also those special partnerships that some very good riders have with their only horse.
We actually do have two riders who are competitive internationally in dressage and are usually superb XC. Kim Severson, who was without a horse for these Games, and Becky Holder. Granted Comet wasn’t nominated, but Can’t Fire Me was. Honestly, if there was going to be a huge gamble on any rider for these Olympics, my choice by far would have Becky and Can’t Fire Me. She didn’t even get the call to Barbury Castle.
I don’t know what those two women do make them so much better at dressage than the majority of US riders, but emulating their training programs might be a way to start.
I would also point out that when the coaches and selectors have a dressage first philosphy it is much more problematic than specifically which individuals get selected. This is really my most important point. Top riders are selecting, purchasing and training horses knowing what the priorities are to make a team.
Whoever said it is right. Opposition Buzz would have never have been considered early in his career by any or our riders because he typically made low 60s to mid 50s in dressage, regardless of an almost spotless XC record.
[QUOTE=JER;6470142]
And the legacy of the CMP years is what exactly? He had his well-compensated position for 20 years and what is there to show for it?
There’s not a chance I’d donate to USEF, even less so now that I know that it allows chefs d’equipe to hire their girlfriends as assistants. That’s corrupt. No other word for it.
You say ‘in the next 2-4 years’ because there’s currently no program or sound infrastructure in place after 20 YEARS of the CMP regime. It’s 2012 and we’re all still saying that our riders have to go to the UK and Europe to get good. I seem to recall that was one of the things that was supposed to be different under CMP. Let’s hope our new coach rises above the less-than-transparent circumstances of his hiring and builds a real program.[/QUOTE]
20 YEARS! My God. What kind of upper level “management” allows that kind of performance in sports for 20 years. That’s what’s scary, a seeming complete indifference to results from a mediocre coach. The message to DOC is quite obviously results don’t matter, coaches receive instant tenure. Discouraging to say the least. And who taught PD to jump ahead like that in SJ? I don’t remember that.
[QUOTE=riderboy;6470272]
The message to DOC is quite obviously results don’t matter, coaches receive instant tenure. [/QUOTE]
It’s worse than that. DOC was hired by the organization of which he was president, while other qualified candidates – who did not have so many conflicts of interest – were not given a fair or thorough hearing by the various committees.
But you know what? Eventing is still a great sport. You can always show your enthusiasm by sending your horsey donation money to riders and organizations whose values you share and whose goals you support.
[QUOTE=JER;6470301]
It’s worse than that. DOC was hired by the organization of which he was president, while other qualified candidates – who did not have so many conflicts of interest – were not given a fair or thorough hearing by the various committees.
But you know what? Eventing is still a great sport. You can always show your enthusiasm by sending your horsey donation money to riders and organizations whose values you share and whose goals you support.
:)[/QUOTE]
Not only this, but CMP was the coach in 1996 and 2000, when DOC rode on the Team and medalled. He was a good coach then, apparently, for the sport as it was then. It’s only been in the last ten years that things began to fall apart. Yet he was rehired, and his last rehire was by an organization that is headed by someone beholden to him.
If we think that CMP is deaf to conflicts of interest, I can also certainly assure you that the new coach may be even deafer. It seems to be a genetic flaw.
[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;6469582]
I disagree about the well trained dressage horse translating to the well balanced x/c horse. The 2 ways of riding are different, the horses’ frames are different, the footing and the topography are diffferent.
As someone who comes from jumperland, and who helps my rider ride my horse in the ring (I defer to specialists in dressage and x/c jumping, but “hire myself” for the SJ practice), when I see her warm up in a dressage frame, I am constantly telling her to prepare the horse to JUMP, not get collected into a sitting trot frame.
This means developing elasticity in stride length while maintaining impulsion, while riding in in a half seat. It means cantering rollbacks with a lot of outside leg. It means cantering up and down hills and staying in balance while galloping at speed.
That cannot be taught in a dressage ring, in a dressage saddle, in a dressage frame. It is an entirely different set of skills the horse needs to learn.
Just envision a dressage horse trying to hand gallop over uneven terrain. Not a pretty picture.[/QUOTE]
I didn’t mean that the ONLY way these horses get so good on cross country is through correct dressage training…I meant, it only HELPS them.
Look at any of the successful German or British horses dressage tests from Thursday and Friday. (I would not hold Ingrid Klimke’s test in these games up as the standard though due to a lot of tension). Those horses were open, up, in self carriage and still through! The trouble is that we perceive Dressage as curling them up and forcing them into a frame. What correct Dressage can do is open the horses up, loosen them, supple them and put them in lovely self carriage that DOES help them out on XC.
All the skills you talked about are most assuredly developed outside the arena by working over varied terrain, and all of the exercises you mentioned above. But it doesn’t take in the whole picture to totally discount Dressage when it comes to training for the other two phases. It isn’t about dressage as an end in itself, or as something that has to be endured, but as the gymnastic development of the horse to its fullest potential and ability.
I understand what you are saying about how you coach your dressage rider to prep your horses to jump and not “collected into a sitting trot frame” but that exact phrase is the kind of thinking that I’m talking about. The “frame” for sitting trot should be the same as the “frame” for the rest of the trot work.
My point is that many of our event riders don’t know how to properly sit the correct trot, or how to produce the correct trot, canter, etc. The correct gaits should be through, relaxed, supple AND jumpable! The horses should push UP through their withers, from their hind ends and OUT to the hand. That sounds an awful lot like the correct jumping posture as well.
I am not arguing for a second that Dressage is the only way to improve or teach XC or jumping. Not for a second. But arguing that good correct Dressage doesn’t improve or even benefit the jumping phases is just as fallacious. And basically turns the theory of why we have the 3 phases that we have on its ear.
And for what it’s worth, I have hand galloped correctly trained FEI Dressage horses across varied terrain…and since they weren’t trained to be curled up, it was no scarier than galloping any other horse across those same fields…
Flame suit on…wasn’t really trying to need it!
Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose
[QUOTE=Whatabeautifullife;6468195]
How are you so sure anyone else would have done a better job? Unless you own a crystal ball, it’s all speculation. We have 5 rider who crossed through the finish line on 5 sound horses. Team Canada, who had such an outstanding WEG, had an unfortunate day. Eventing is full of highs and lows, it’s the nature of the sport. Some of the best in the world didn’t make it around today. It isn’t fair to discredit our riders, some of whom are kicking themselves enough without us having to do it for them.[/QUOTE]
THIS.
Clayton Fredericks had a fall, for heaven’s sake, and Lucinda had a runout. Mark Todd nearly had a miss on the last fence (since he’s Mark Todd he didn’t, but he could have). It was a tough course, perhaps not in the same way other 4* courses are, but it was difficult enough-William Fox-Pitt couldn’t make the time on the horse he chose out of all the horses in his stable. (I wouldn’t have gone over that crescent moon jump on foot, never mind horseback, unless I was being chased by wild hyenas.)
I will grant that the US team could have done better, but it could have been much, much worse. Not to mention that the Brits, Kiwis, Aussies and the Europeans were playing in their own back yard, which always makes things easier. It will be interesting to see how things play out in Rio, which is far away from every body’s back yard. Location is important-Phillip Dutton originally came to the US in 1991 to prepare for the 1996 games in Atlanta, where Australia won gold.
It seems like success in Olympic sports is cyclical, and, while the Germans have been on top of eventing for quite a while, they have had droughts in the past. It might be worthwhile to think about how their selection process works for them, since our selection process is something that could be changed in the short term. Our current selection process seems pretty hard on every one, and the results have been respectable, but not outstanding.
Oh, and another thing that has been bugging me-unless you all are First Nations people, Phillip Dutton and Boyd Martin are as American as the rest of us.
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use
