I find it odd too. There is always either an undertone or an overtone on these threads that the US must be the best at all times. Don’t get me wrong - I’m not against striving for excellence, but I think that there are inevitable ups and downs. It doesn’t mean the US system is broken, just like a big win doesn’t mean that the US system is perfect!
Percentage blood doesn’t make a nearly blood horse. That’s why the german verbands are so fixated on finding TBs to add to their mix. After several generations of mixed blood, you can lose the gallop and stamina that makes the TB the TB.
I believe in genetics it’s called recombination.
Bendigo has as much gelderlander blood as TB, maybe more. Flying Finish doesn’t have a TB in his first two generations and only two in the 3rd.
Penalties in dressage are more “expensive” than time faults in XC because of the co-efficient. If you were rational and had to chose an event horse, wouldn’t you be willing to sacrifice time (stamina) for dressage movement, assuming the horse had the power and scope to jump? Horses for courses.
And then it becomes courses for horses, and XC is shortened and slowed. (The FEI has raised slowing the mpm down, but it hasn’t happened yet.) XC has been shortened about about 15%)
[QUOTE=subk;6467320]
Been there, done that, married her.[/QUOTE]
Oh crap, forgot! In with the new, out with the old.
[QUOTE=OverandOnward;6467370]
The USA team performance was not below my expectations. It was what I expected. From the time of the last selection, I did not feel we had sent a medal team.
We need a new coach. We need a new selection committee, and a new strategy for selections. We need some new faces on the team as well.
What is a butt-kicker always-top pair in the USA is about 12th-15th place in international competition. On a good day. The rest of the US pairs are somewhere below that in the placings in international competition.
The pipeline of future team members: From early lessons on up through the levels, we need better instruction in the US and a different picture of what riding is supposed to be for eventing. What passes for an instructor in these United States is kind of alarming (in some cases.) Anyone can hang out a shingle - and does. They have students who are on course and influencing what eventing is in the US.
So, for a number of reasons, what I’ve seen since Saturday is pretty much what I thought I’d see.
I would like to see better. But before that can happen some huge egos have to be moved out of the way.[/QUOTE]
Am learning a lot here. H/J rerider here -returning at an age equal to the “older” eventers. 
Also been pretty personally involved w/ TB racing the past 5 years or so, although have always loved it as a spectator, and owner of OTTBs.
As someone seeing equestrian competition again, and rediscovering training, boarding, horse care and soundness solutions, etc. after a break of many years, find myself wondering what’s going on - & headed in the eventing direction. Just being involved in one trial, I loved the joy that I could see in both horses and riders, vs. how dry hunter/jumperdom has become. But agree with the above - what a difference in who can do what. Just thinking today, compared to so many I meet, I, too, could be a horse professional! 
But not based on the standards I learned under.
Nor would I want to.
So while watching the eventing of the past few days, knowing TBs, and reading the discussion on this forum, do you think we’re missing because of a)dependency on meds, supplements, and quick fixes, b)use of meds/drugs/breeding for speed v. stamina in TBs, and/or c)lack of learning real horsemanship/hard work from a rider’s point of view.
Seeing 50,000 show up for this was really inspiring. I just get the impression most of those enthusiasts would know how to clean a stall.
Finally, was really pleased to see so many riders give their horses encouragement at the end, even with errors, but dismayed at Will Coleman’s reaction. Understand the disgust with an error that shouldn’t have happened, but in the meantime, the horse took him gallantly through the rest of the course, and got just a smack on the neck when he hopped off. Guess I’ve seen the same with varied Grand Prix riders after a jump-off, but seems as if the horse is giving so much more here.
[QUOTE=CVPeg;6467525]
So while watching the eventing of the past few days, knowing TBs, and reading the discussion on this forum, do you think we’re missing because of a)dependency on meds, supplements, and quick fixes, b)use of meds/drugs/breeding for speed v. stamina in TBs, and/or c)lack of learning real horsemanship/hard work from a rider’s point of view. [/QUOTE]
None of the Above
I think we’re missing national leadership and focus.
CMP’s program has been about having the money to purchase a top horse (a la KOC, PD and Boyd) that’s very different than the long term horse and rider partnerships that are on Team GBR.
It shouldn’t be surprising. If you look at the dressage results at Barbury Castle they look a lot like the Olympic games. I think one issue we have is that scoring in events back home tends to be soft. The dressage scores for events back home tend to 5-7 points better than on the international scene.
Agree…
But they aren’t fixated on it. At all. You keep repeating this myth, but from everything I’ve heard/read the German verbands are pretty darned happy with what they have now and are leery of adding TB in as the current german horses are light/elegant/leggy but still have fabulous movement and jumping ability.
Stuff happens - 1978 Worlds US Team - Bruce, Jimmy, Mike and Tad Coffin. Jimmy had a fall in XC, Mike had the big E, Tad had all kinds of problems and Bruce’s horse required extraordinary vet care after XC. So we went from being expected Gold Medal team with any of the team being able to medal individually to barely getting team bronze and Bruce with a controversal individual gold.
Agree with others - our team is where I expected. The leaders’ work on their dressage shows and their XC is just terrific. Time for us to lose that stupid standing in the stirrups galloping position. Look at how well the leaders’ horses went XC with the riders in a galloping position as opposed to some of ours in the standing position.
Most, not all, of the falls appeared to be bad luck, especially Clayton Frederick’s. I do hope his horse is ok, that LH was really stressed.
Enough of the if, if, if - who really knows how any other combinations would have handled the very electric dressage arena or the XC? Don’t forget the trolls living in the corner near “C” at the 2010 WEGs.
DOC has plenty of work to do before the next international competition.
[QUOTE=fooler;6467797]
Look at how well the leaders’ horses went XC with the riders in a galloping position as opposed to some of ours in the standing position.[/QUOTE]
Commentator online even comment on how lovely and forward Zara’s galloping position was. And it was. I’d love to see that standing up thing die too.
[QUOTE=subk;6467537]
None of the Above
I think we’re missing national leadership and focus.
CMP’s program has been about having the money to purchase a top horse (a la KOC, PD and Boyd) that’s very different than the long term horse and rider partnerships that are on Team GBR.[/QUOTE]
I just got my “Eventing” magazine and read the “Captain"s Commentary.” I don’t want to turn this into a CMP bash, but this is the kind of stuff that just makes me crazy. CMP writes that the US team was able to use “…the wonderful uphill all weather gallop at Jackdaws Castle…” " It still amazes me that this type of gallop has not taken off in America. They get your fitness work done at half the speed and to half the wear and tear with the horses."
Well then, as chef, why the heck wasn’t something like that part of your training program?? A little leadership on an apparently valuable training aid might be something you could help encourage and make happen? No. AAaarrgghhh!
They are fixated on it. They are always searching for the “right” TB. Can’t be just any TB. Has to have the kind of bloodlines that would go well with their WBs. Do a google search.
Yes they are happy with what they have now, but they’ve always taken the position that the tendency of the WB may be to revert to the native mare type. So they’ve always said that a judicious infusion of the TB restores athleticism and bravery. Given the way genetics works, they would be right for a rather significant number of foals.
This is from an interview last year with Dr. Thomas Nissen, head of the Holsteiner verband:
TN: We are looking for good thoroughbred stallions all the time. You know the problem; we know the problem. But with all the problems we have to keep trying. Nobody can say if you go to the racing yards or studs, “That is a thoroughbred stallion that will bring us what we need.” We always say we will look for another Ladykiller or Cottage Son but it is so difficult. The times change and the breeds change and in the 1950s and '60s and later in the century we had another basis for the mare and the motherline. We had the older type from the farmers without thoroughbred influence. You know the genetics. It was the cross-breeding of the motherline without foreign blood influence with a thoroughbred that produced the effect, the genetic effect. We don’t have this effect today because the motherlines are already crossed with thoroughbreds so the offspring go in different ways. It is not so easy. We do not have today the potential for the success like we had in '60s and '70s. We have to bring thoroughbreds into our population and we will not find one stallion like Ladykiller because the chance in the breed today is so small for a thoroughbred stallion. Fifty years ago the breeder needed a TB and everyone would use that stallion. It was another situation and another basis.
It is a great mistake if we wish that because today the breeder has to think about the market and the economics of the breed. And therefore it is necessary that they use stallions like Cassini, Caretino and Contender, or their sons, because the sport people, the riders, know these genetics and they like to bring these horses to sport and not thoroughbred offspring.
So I think it is necessary that the breeder use thoroughbreds but use them with very good thinking about which mare is right for the thoroughbred. You need for a thoroughbred stallion your best motherline, with a good background, a good stamm behind it, and good jumping ability. This is necessary. Because in other ways the risk is too big that the result goes this way and that way. The breeder should use a thoroughbred stallion on a mare with a good motherline and hope that they get a filly and then bring that filly to their breeding stock. That is the way. And if they have a half-bred mare they could use a stallion like Contender or a son and then we have the influence of the thoroughbred from the mother and from the father we have the top genetics of a sport horse. I think that is our way forward
[QUOTE=madamlb;6467385]
Goodness, this thread rankled this morning. Probably because my country, of strong fantastic eventers, had two people fall off. Just a bit crushed over here.
How could you be underwhelmed with three riders in the top twenty and all riders around clear? Couldn’t you be a bit more supportive? It’s not even over yet and you’ve got this thread up! We had two people fall off, and I can promise you the Australian eventing fans are saying how proud we are of our team anyway and how we’ll be back better than ever. Not ripping them apart for falling off. Also, what do you expect? Why does the US have to be the best at everything??? You have a great team (two Australians and Heath Ryan’s horse- just saying’) can’t you just be happy with that and wait and see how they go?
You people are strange.
Sorry if that sounds really harsh, I had about four hours sleep and the rest of the night was spent watching cross country nightmares, I am not my perkiest :D[/QUOTE]
:D. Indeed.
I am very proud of all the riders. Nothing to be ashamed of here. This is not politics, it’s sport. On and with horses…who have good and bad days…no one told them this AM that their next carrot depended on a clean round. Support our riders. They have done a great job today.
I hope they weigh their boots before tomorrow.
I really don’t think the issue is our horses, I think it’s the jackass of a “coach” we have (and I use that term loosely) and the procedure used to pick the team. By the time the team is named, we’ve spent thousands of dollars, and the riders and horses are tired and stressed out and injected to the hilt by the time the Games roll around. Yet we keep using the same “let’s drag this out as long as possible” method that has proven to be nothing but unsuccessful.
Additionally, the British (and other Europeans) are fortunate in that they don’t have to travel nearly as much to upper level competitons. Trailering 20+ hours up and down the East Coast, competing earlier and earlier in the calendar year… it all adds up in wear and tear.
CMP will now proceed to write in Eventing Magazine on how it’s all the riders’ fault that they didn’t medal and they should be ashamed of themselves, yadda yadda yadda. I’m not saying he has to coddle them, but I truly believe he doesn’t have the US’s best interests at hand, and his history of shoddy leadership proves it.
IMO, bringing back the long format isn’t an option if we want to keep this sport in the Olympics. It sucks, but we need to accept it and move on. :no:
I truly believe that we lost it on day one. I don’t believe the selection process itself contributed to average dressage scores. I don’t believe the horses or riders were burned out, or over-competed this season. I think the US is simply not good enough on the flat. The riders and horses are talented enough to be on the top, but the education in the US is lacking.
I do feel that this fact has been evident for a number of years, and CMP hasn’t really done much to improve it. Having attended his training sessions as an auditor, the man truly is phenomenal at teaching on the flat. It’s remarkable what he can see before the rider even feels. One or two sessions of auditing flipped a switch for me and helped me turn a big corner with dressage.
However, the US riders really need to be in a program for their flatwork. One or two lessons every winter for a couple of months does not create as much improvement as we need. If you ask me, we need to hire a dressage trainer (preferably a German!) who just flies around and gives our team prospects lessons, preferably every two weeks. Two days in PA/MD, two days in VA, one day in NC. The next week, three days in FL, two in CA. Lather, rinse, repeat. Schedule can be adjusted depending on time of year and concentration of riders.
Obviously, this isn’t necessarily feasible. But my opinion is that these flat riders need to be in a program with consistent instruction in order to catch up with the rest of the world.
I don’t know where the “ex for Philip” comment comes from. Boyd rode terrifically today- made the XC look easy, and did his job as the lead off rider- a good solid run to build on. I haven’t watched Karen yet, but sounds like she put in a solid run as well.
[QUOTE=madamlb;6467385]
Goodness, this thread rankled this morning. Probably because my country, of strong fantastic eventers, had two people fall off. Just a bit crushed over here.
How could you be underwhelmed with three riders in the top twenty and all riders around clear? Couldn’t you be a bit more supportive? It’s not even over yet and you’ve got this thread up! We had two people fall off, and I can promise you the Australian eventing fans are saying how proud we are of our team anyway and how we’ll be back better than ever. Not ripping them apart for falling off. Also, what do you expect? Why does the US have to be the best at everything??? You have a great team (two Australians and Heath Ryan’s horse- just saying’) can’t you just be happy with that and wait and see how they go?
You people are strange.
Sorry if that sounds really harsh, I had about four hours sleep and the rest of the night was spent watching cross country nightmares, I am not my perkiest :D[/QUOTE]
AMEN! I am very proud of our riders and I thought that both horses and riders put in wonderful efforts today. I mean for godsakes, Boyd had to be the first one of the day to navigate this course and he made it look effortless, only being a little over the time. Karen and Mr. Medicott also put in a wonderful performance today in CC. It takes some serious guts and talent to compete over a course like that. Easy to sit here and armchair quarterback from the sidelines. I wish our team the best and I am rooting for them! Getting up super early to watch online tomorrow!
I enjoyed all the riders, not just the ones from the USA. And I thought scores placed riders where they belonged.
Of course, if our government subsidized riders and Olympic programs like they do in Europe and elsewhere, these athletes could train full time and not worry about making a living. And that’s not ever going to happen. The French government even supports the national stud and other countries likely do the same.
I also suspect the eventers don’t train for dressage to the same extent they train for x-country and jumping.
I’d like to see more “home grown” talent rather than those coming over from other countries as established riders because the competition is less stringent over here (i.e., Australia.)
I think the US selectors need a drink (with cyanide in it)
