Where are we to discuss *ok, below expectations* performance of US eventing?

[NCRider]

Ringwood Magister was scary on xc yesterday. It was a repeat of Rolex without the fall, thank goodness. People from all over the world on the H&H chat were commenting on how poorly he was going. That’s why it was inexcusable to take a chance on them because he looks like that more than half the time at CCIs.

Add to that the fact that his dressage is also average in competition a lot of the time, I think there was so little potential for reward that I’m still shocked at their inclusion.

If we wanted either him or his rider for future teams when they might have been ready, then this was a huge set back. I hope it hasn’t done permanent damage to either of their psyches a la Mandiba 2004.

[Lori_B]

I do not regard myself as sufficiently expert to comment on their future, but I too found Ringwood Magister’s XC round quite scary looking at various points.

[HRF_Second_Chance]

[QUOTE=Lori B;6469037]
I do not regard myself as sufficiently expert to comment on their future, but I too found Ringwood Magister’s XC round quite scary looking at various points.[/QUOTE]

I have to echo what Lori B is saying. I come from Hunterland and when I get a chance I go plop over logs and think I’ve done something special for a confidence boost. I’ve got nothing but huge respect for the cross country phase of eventing because it scares the bejesus out of me, but in a good way usually.

This rider scared the bejesus out of me in a bad way.

I think beyond the Americans performance I was a little shocked by the course in general based on the number of refusals and falls on an international stage where people who know nothing of the sport are watching. While falls are inevitable, delays to remove the carnage from the course doesn’t present it in the best light. Not saying scale the course back to make it more paltable to the general public, but at least be conscious of it.

[Anne_FS]

[QUOTE=HRF Second Chance;6469139]
IWhile falls are inevitable, delays to remove the carnage from the course doesn’t present it in the best light. Not saying scale the course back to make it more paltable to the general public, but at least be conscious of it.[/QUOTE]

I think the IOC, USEF, and the other organizations are extremely conscious of it. The course could’ve been much more tough/hazardous than it was; it was designed the way it was for a reason.

[KateDB]

I’m a bit surprised that our rider’s don’t have a dressage-specific coach. I mean, even my lowly smurf-self makes it a point to ride with a true Dressage person (perhaps I’m lucky, but, FEI dressage trainers/riders are not too hard to come by in my area).

But they do! Linda Zang, Michael Barisone, Silva Martin, etc. I’m not saying it’s the fault of these dressage trainers, but something still isn’t working. The irony is that it’s been 10 years since CMP made the comment about US riders needing to score in the 30s in order to be competitive. And along the way, a few pairs have, but not consistently.
So, the question is why not? They do have access to dressage trainers (and judges), they certainly practice but there is something missing. Atmosphere? Quality of horse? Quality of rider? Quality of competition? And it can’t be blamed all on “the same riders” because this is something that has been recurring for years, and has had lots of rider turnover.

Seems what we need is Chris Bartel! I wonder if the Germans would loan him for the next few years?!?! :winkgrin:

[snoopy]

[QUOTE=KateDB;6469304]
But they do! Linda Zang, Michael Barisone, Silva Martin, etc. I’m not saying it’s the fault of these dressage trainers, but something still isn’t working. The irony is that it’s been 10 years since CMP made the comment about US riders needing to score in the 30s in order to be competitive. And along the way, a few pairs have, but not consistently.
So, the question is why not? They do have access to dressage trainers (and judges), they certainly practice but there is something missing. Atmosphere? Quality of horse? Quality of rider? Quality of competition? And it can’t be blamed all on “the same riders” because this is something that has been recurring for years, and has had lots of rider turnover.

Seems what we need is Chris Bartel! I wonder if the Germans would loan him for the next few years?!?! :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]

…and accurate scoring of dressage in the USA.

[KateDB]

Snoopy,
No argument from me on that, but at what level/s? or at all levels? or just the upper levels/FEI competitions in the US?

[KateDB]

One other question, if the US was more “accurate” in it’s calibration of dressage score/rides, what do you foresee the result to be? So, instead of a 28 someone gets a 36, but that also affects everyone in that same division. Would folks go home and work harder to improve their actual numeric score? Is that the expectation?

[echodecker]

At ALL levels! Right? We should have accurate scoring at ALL levels of Eventing in the dressage phase…because otherwise we are constantly teaching and reinforcing to our riders that a lower level of flatwork is good enough, if not great! And then…we get up on the international stage and are shocked by how much lower our scores are than the other nations!

There is a huge disparity (particularly in the US) between regular Dressage and Eventing Dressage. This is highlighted whenever we have international competitions and our Dressage scores are not only so much higher, but when you watch the tests and see that the other nations are riding “real Dressage” and we are riding “Eventing Dressage.” I don’t mean toe-flinging, hyper-flexed GP craziness…I mean, their horses are through, supple, connected and rhythmic, and ours ARE NOT! Their riders are riding in correct Dressage seats, vertical upper bodies, open chests, shoulders up and back, heads high, not gripping with their legs, toes towards the front, not the sides, soft forward independant hands and our riders ARE NOT!

Just watch any of the German or British Dressage tests and compare them to our tests. Look at the difference in the riders positions, the horses outlines, the connection over the toplines over the WITHERS to the bits…the Japanese rider who won the Dressage Phase had a lovely connected test. Compare how his horse goes to how Otis goes or even Mystery Whisper.

We only have a few horses in the US who can break into the European scores in Dressage, Arthur, Mystery Whisper, and Loughan Glen are the only ones who come to mind. But look at the scores Mystery Whisper has been getting in the US and then see what he got in the Olympics…big difference in how we are scoring at home vs internationally!

The other countries have not taken good Dressage horses and taught them to run XC as another thread mentioned seems to be our strategy…they have taken horses that are great at XC and taught them CORRECT Dressage, not what passes for Eventing Dressage here…IMHO, THAT is our problem.

And of course, to solve it means that each rider has to truly look him or herself in the eye and say “I may not know how to ride Dressage like that! But, I am willing to humble myself, set aside what I think I know, and learn.”

I’m not trying to disparage our team, I can only dream of doing what they do and I loved watching each of them go. But, as a nation, developing future teams…I think we need to truly examine our Eventing Dressage culture if we want to be competitive.

[echodecker]

I think that the expecation should be that the riders would go home and better their numeric score! That is the point of having an international standard, the scoring is supposed to be objective (I know, I know) and a 7 here should mean the same thing as a 7 there.

So…your relative placing among the riders on a given day should be significantly less important than your score against the STANDARD. We should truly be able to compare a 2 or 3 star dressage score at Fair Hill or the Fork to a dressage score from Boekelo or Adelaide, right? The margin of error should be minimal, just the difference between one judge or the next, not 5 or 10 points from one country to the next!

Obviously we all want to win, and if you are winning, there is less impetus to improve your performance because it was good enough. But, I imagine for those riders looking to compete on the international stage, they not only care about winning, they care about how their scores stack up against their peers, who may not be in this country.

If the scores they receive at CCIs and CICs in this country are skewed high, then they feel better about how they stack up internationally. No one is doing them any favors in that instance…if the scores are more accurate, then I would guess that KOC and PD would go home and think…I won today because I was the best in the ring today…but my scores are 10 or 15 points lower than WFP or Mark Todd or Michael Jung…I still have a lot of work to do!

Just like in the straight dressage…Steffan Peters is the US favorite, not because he wins here all the time (Which he does) but because he has consistently shown the ability to score higher than 80% in the international ring! Whether that was good enough for the win is irrelevant, what is important is the top scores on an even standardized playing field (or at least moreso than the eventing dressage field).

[fooler]

Are we, meaning smurfs to URL, willing to accept proper dressage scoring? There is a thread on Eventing about a mean nasty dressage judge that scored someone in the high 40’s low 50’s. Much wailing and complaining.

Dressage scoring has to be consistent from bottom to top for there to be true impact.

Next we need to relearn going quickly across country. The Brits are masters at that. They move quickly and most importantly their horses are balanced so they can jump out of stride and are very adjustable for combinations. Mary King and Zara Phillips rides should be used for training.

[Gnep]

[QUOTE=snoopy;6469309]
…and accurate scoring of dressage in the USA.[/QUOTE]

Not only that, the riders have to learn to look bejond the fence, ride Dressage shows, do real Stadium jumping.

If you look at Jungs show plan, he goes mainly to Dressage shows or Stadium Jumpers, he got some very nice Jumpers and Dressagers in his barn, same for many of the European riders, including the Brits.

Klimke rides Grand Prix level Dressage and so on.

It is the all around of those riders.

And naturally the US is an Island, very few and very few times do they realy measure up against the best in the world.
With Pau and Luhmuehlen as 4 stars the Rolex has lost its importance.
The US riders have to go to Europe, as Tuppys girl is doing.

[KateDB]

See, I don’t disagree about knuckling down on dressage scores, but hopefully FEI scores in the USA are comparable to FEI scores around the globe. Particularly since FEI dressage judges come to us from around the world.
Do we think that when judges arrive at Rolex they score softer than when they are judging at Badminton/Burghley?
That’s why I ask at what levels for dressage score “accuracy”.

[echodecker]

[QUOTE=fooler;6469408]
Are we, meaning smurfs to URL, willing to accept proper dressage scoring? There is a thread on Eventing about a mean nasty dressage judge that scored someone in the high 40’s low 50’s. Much wailing and complaining.

Dressage scoring has to be consistent from bottom to top for there to be true impact.

Next we need to relearn going quickly across country. The Brits are masters at that. They move quickly and most importantly their horses are balanced so they can jump out of stride and are very adjustable for combinations. Mary King and Zara Phillips rides should be used for training.;)[/QUOTE]

I think yes, smurfs to ULR…there will be much gnashing of teeth, but no one wants scores in the 50s, so people will work to improve (if they can’t go find a judge to give them a higher score because the standard is being adhered to across the board).

It seems to me that going quickly across country is greatly aided in having a truly dressage trained horse. The balance that those British horses showed is developed through correct flatwork…which is the whole point of the 3 phases, right?

I was absolutely in awe of Zara, Mary and Ingrid Klimke’s quick XC rounds, so balanced and so fast! And the German girl who won Bronze…Auffahrt? Nice!

[Gnep]

2011
Vielseitigkeit:
35 mal international Siege und Platzierungen bis CCI***

Sieg Bundeschampionat Warendorf 6 Jähriige Vielseitigkeitspferde Rocana
2. Platz Bundeschampionat Warendorf 5 Jähriige Vielseitigkeitspferde Cavalandra

• Gold / Einzel Europameisterschaften Luhmühlen CCI***
• Gold / Team Europameisterschaften Luhmühlen CCI***

Dressur:

• 5 Platzierungen S***, Grandprix- und Grandprix Special

Springen:
6 mal Siege bis S****
62 Platzierungen M*-S****

Jungs 2011 record
notice Dressur=Dressage

Springen=Jumping

S=highest national level.

[FrittSkritt]

[QUOTE=echodecker;6469437]

I was absolutely in awe of Zara, Mary and Ingrid Klimke’s quick XC rounds, so balanced and so fast! And the German girl who won Bronze…Auffahrt? Nice![/QUOTE]

See, I thought Mary’s round was quite scary. She’s a brilliant rider, don’t get me wrong, but her horse was flipping her the bird every chance he had. She did the best she could in controlling him, which is what she’s good at, but he was not the picture of a smooth XC ride.

Boyd, Phillip (from what I could see), and Will (save for the drop) had VERY good rides IMO. Very smooth and WFP-like.

[Anne_FS]

[QUOTE=fooler;6469408]
There is a thread on Eventing about a mean nasty dressage judge that scored someone in the high 40’s low 50’s. Much wailing and complaining. [/QUOTE]

Link? or thread name?

[vineyridge]

I always notice WFPs galloping position. When Zara went, I noticed hers. They must be incredibly strong. I didn’t see the same strength in the US riders or the same position for the galloping bits.

[snoopy]

Well said Echodecker.

[KateDB]

See, I think there is actually plenty of room for folks to improve right now, without having to change anything.

Most smurfs-ULRs are not regularly getting in the teens for their dressage scores, there are certainly a few, but not the majority. And right now, most folks are ecstatic if they get mid-20s to a 30. I’m not convinced those folks go home to work to shave 5 points of that 29.

So, definitely a valid point and could contribute to future success, but not the whole answer, imho.

Please note, I am making general statement here. I do agree rising tide raises all boats, whatever is going to work for us has to be something that affects everyone.
Also, I definitely agree with echo that great dressage surely leads to smooth, easy xc and sj trips.