where do I set the "boundries" in this trainer situation?

[teagles]

Sorry for that kinda awkward title but any/all advice is appreciated!
Situation: I’m a young amateur and I have been working in Europe this summer for a training/sales barn. My boss here has asked if I want to try to begin a partnership with him when I get back to the states. Starting with bringing one horse home with me and trying my hand at sales, then see how it goes and hopefully continue to turn it into a real business. Parents are on board and it’s looking like a go. I’m very excited but how do I present this to my current trainer?

I’ve been training with her for a year. I moved to a new state to go to college, therefore a new trainer. She and I have a great relationship and she has really taken me under her wing. She actually found me this job in Europe. I want to start doing my own thing soon but I’m not dumb enough to think I can bring a young horse along without any help from a trainer at this point in my life.

I want to ask her to continue to train me with these horses but do I need to worry she will want a trainer cut when this horse sells? I really just want to take occasional lessons and have her help when I go to shows but when it comes to marketing the horse, etc I want to do that part all on my own. Is it inappropriate of me to not give her a cut?
Also, am I stepping on toes if I board it at her barn if this could turn into my own business? I have a few ideas of barns that I could maybe take the horse to. (one is a boarding-only barn actually owned by another client of my trainer and happens to be next door to my trainer’s house.)

I am definitely going to make sure all these things are out in the open before importing a horse but I figured I could ask you guys here what I could maybe expect before having the conversation. Thanks!!

[partlycloudy]

Tell her exactly what you’ve told us here. Make sure you pay her full price for any lessons/coaching to keep things completely ‘above board’.
If you happen to do really well on a particular horse that she helped you with, a money gift would no doubt be appreciated.

[RockinHorse]

Of course you have to ask her, but if you keep the horse at her barn and have her train you and sell it from her barn, then yes, I believe she would expect (and deserve!) a cut.

[RugBug]

Pros work with other pros all the time. Just make sure she understands that the relationship is changing to see if she is willing to mentor a young professional*

*if you are being paid for your work in Europe, you are already a pro.

[FineAlready]

I agree with RugBug. Explain exactly what you’d like to do, and how you’d like to do it, and see if she is on board with that plan. If not, then go elsewhere.

[Ibex]

And make sure you document it! This type of situation could turn into a misunderstanding he said/she said really quickly.

[meupatdoes]

Pay her full price for the services she provides.

If she does not provide any sales-related services, she does not deserve nor should she expect a cut.

If she is the one who finds the purchaser, she does deserve something. You should work out in advance with her how you will split up the commission if this is the case.

That is a good way to have the conversation. “I would like to continue my training relationship with you and come in for lessons with this horse. Before you mention this horse to others on my behalf, however, we should probably be clear on what our deal would be if you find a buyer for the horse.”

The two main scenarios to look out for are
1.) if she recommends her own client to buy the horse, in which case her client should pay her the sale commission independently of anything form you
2.) if she mentions the horse to another trainer that brings a client (ie, “I don’t have anything for you but I know someone who does,” and gives them your name). In this scenario the buyer should pay their 3rd party trainer, and you should give your trainer a cut of your commission for the contact.

You should probably also clarify scenarios 1 and 2 with the European trainer just so they know exactly what is going on. ie, “Hi European trainer, normally the end purchaser would just pay their trainer commission, but if I get help from another trainer I would charge you (European trainer) the same commission and share it with the trainer who helped me.”
Or however you want to work it out.

As long as everyone knows what is going on and no one is being kept deliberately in the dark, you’re fine.

[JustJump]

You’re uncomfortable because you realize that you aren’t quite ready for what you propose doing.

Chances are that if your current trainer set you up in this job, she won’t be shocked to find you propose to bring a horse back with you to sell. Before these horses step on a plane, speak to her about what type of arrangement she’d consider. If she wants a piece of that action, she likely won’t be shy about saying so, and if so, your training fees may be deeply discounted, or free. And you’ll get walked through the deal and possibly a few more if it works out well.

That’s known as a “win-win.” Don’t be so eager to leave that nest. It’s a harsh world out there, and you need friends (i.e. no burned bridges) to survive.

[BAC]

[QUOTE=RugBug;7636595]

*if you are being paid for your work in Europe, you are already a pro.[/QUOTE]

I was wondering when someone would mention this.

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=BAC;7636627]
I was wondering when someone would mention this.[/QUOTE]

Well, she is also in Europe and thus not doing any USEF shows at the moment, so there is really no reason to inform USEF RIGHT NOW.

As long as she reports her status accurately the next time she wants to enter the show ring under USEF rules, she is fine. Whatever the rules in Europe are is a different deal.

[teagles]

Only thing I’m getting while in Europe is valuable knowledge, connections, and bigger muscles.

Thanks for all the input it’s very helpful!

[RockinHorse]

@meupatdoes;7636619

Pay her full price for the services she provides.

If she does not provide any sales-related services, she does not deserve nor should she expect a cut.

If the horse is at the trainers barn, being marketed and shown at that barn using the trainers facilities, jumps etc (not to mention name recognition that occurs just by people knowing they are going to Barn XXX to look at a horse) I think she does deserve a cut. How much would be a matter of negotiation.

[KateKat]

[QUOTE=RockinHorse;7636663]
If the horse is at the trainers barn, being marketed and shown at that barn using the trainers facilities, jumps etc (not to mention name recognition that occurs just by people knowing they are going to Barn XXX to look at a horse) I think she does deserve a cut. How much would be a matter of negotiation.[/QUOTE]

This. I think it sounds like a great opportunity, just be very transparent with all involved and lay out the who does what before hand otherwise I can see it getting way too messy.

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=RockinHorse;7636663]
If the horse is at the trainers barn, being marketed and shown at that barn using the trainers facilities, jumps etc (not to mention name recognition that occurs just by people knowing they are going to Barn XXX to look at a horse) I think she does deserve a cut. How much would be a matter of negotiation.[/QUOTE]

I agree. I thought OP would be trailering in for lessons and had her own place to show the horse, but if she is planning on using the facility as a presentation space, the trainer deserves either something in the event the horse sells to a third party unrelated to the trainer’s networking but to whom the horse was presented at the trainer’s facility. Either a fee per showing, or a flat fee agreed to in advance that covers OP if she shows the horse once or has to show it 30 times.

[teagles]

[QUOTE=RockinHorse;7636663]
If the horse is at the trainers barn, being marketed and shown at that barn using the trainers facilities, jumps etc (not to mention name recognition that occurs just by people knowing they are going to Barn XXX to look at a horse) I think she does deserve a cut. How much would be a matter of negotiation.[/QUOTE]

@KateKat;7636710

This. I think it sounds like a great opportunity, just be very transparent with all involved and lay out the who does what before hand otherwise I can see it getting way too messy.

Yeah RockinHorse makes very good points. Thats why I worry about it being at her barn.
And yes that’s the plan. This is a very legitimate situation, my parents are helping me and this is being taken very seriously. I have to present a business plan to them and everything. So it’s also very important to me that I do this correctly, without burning any bridges. Hopefully making new many new bridges!

[teagles]

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;7636719]
I agree. I thought OP would be trailering in for lessons and had her own place to show the horse, but if she is planning on using the facility as a presentation space, the trainer deserves either something in the event the horse sells to a third party unrelated to the trainer’s networking but to whom the horse was presented at the trainer’s facility. Either a fee per showing, or a flat fee agreed to in advance that covers OP if she shows the horse once or has to show it 30 times.[/QUOTE]

If I do end up with the horse at her barn then I think this is a great plan. Thanks for the suggestion.

[teagles]

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;7636719]
I agree. I thought OP would be trailering in for lessons and had her own place to show the horse, but if she is planning on using the facility as a presentation space, the trainer deserves either something in the event the horse sells to a third party unrelated to the trainer’s networking but to whom the horse was presented at the trainer’s facility. Either a fee per showing, or a flat fee agreed to in advance that covers OP if she shows the horse once or has to show it 30 times.[/QUOTE]

If I do end up with the horse at her barn then I think this is a great plan. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Coanteen]

[QUOTE=teagles;7636726]
Yeah RockinHorse makes very good points. Thats why I worry about it being at her barn.
And yes that’s the plan. This is a very legitimate situation, my parents are helping me and this is being taken very seriously. I have to present a business plan to them and everything. So it’s also very important to me that I do this correctly, without burning any bridges. Hopefully making new many new bridges![/QUOTE]

However it’s set up, makie sure there’s a contract covering various situations (you find buyer, trainer finds buyer, buyer is already client of trainer, etc). And with a sale business, if I was trainer and I knew you were not quite ready to bring a horse along, I’m not sure I’d consider my lessons just as lessons - it would be training a sale horse, so I wouldn’t be surprised if she wanted a cut. Especially if it was at her facility.
Then again, if she did geta cut, the contract nmight involve taking some of the lesson or show-help fees out of it; after all, if she’s getting a cut of the sale for training the young horse, why should you pay her separately for training, right?

There will be different options on how to work with the trainer, all of them fine in their own right - as long as the rules are in writing and agreed to by both parties. The burned bridges happen when it gets into a “but I thought you would pay me this” misunderstanding.

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=Coanteen;7636784]
if I was trainer and I knew you were not quite ready to bring a horse along, I’m not sure I’d consider my lessons just as lessons - it would be training a sale horse, so I wouldn’t be surprised if she wanted a cut.[/QUOTE]

The quality, and expense, of an hour of the trainer’s time and teaching should be the same regardless of whether the horse in question will eventually be for sale.

If the trainer’s teaching time has been paid for it has been paid for, whether the horse eventually sells for $15,000 or $150,000.

It is not like the trainer will suddenly refund half the lessons or reduce their commission to 3% if the horse dies of colic or needs a huge vet bill paid. They get paid for their time regardless of whether the owner makes money …and they also don’t get the windfalls regardless of whether the owner makes money.

[Jsalem]

If I were you I wouldn’t discount the value of having an established trainer in your corner and yes, earning a commission on your sale. If you want to do this on your own, then you need to board the horse somewhere private and pay for your lessons and don’t expect to ride your trainer’s coat tails in terms of contacts and reputation when it’s time to sell.

Honestly, you can market to your heart’s content, but a no-name trainer with one horse for sale isn’t going to get a lot of traffic. Now if you’re really a rock star and can go to A rated shows and win in divisions with the big boys (Pre-Green for example), sure people will ask about the horse. But advertising online? Flyers? Hmm, probably not for an expensive imported horse.

A newbie such as yourself won’t have the contacts nor the record to command a top price. Your trainer will. I know of several young local “pros” that have cute horses for sale- they aren’t out there showing and no one is looking at their sale horse because they’re sort of “back yard” situations. That’s not the way to sell an expensive import.

The way those horses get sold is to get them going and showing and winning. It takes time and it takes money. And it’s expensive. If that’s your plan, then having a well known professional standing at the gate while you show and fielding inquiries might actually make you money. Just make sure that any commission amount is agreed upon up front. Heck, I’ve been doing this a long time and I have no problem paying a commission if a trainer sells my horse.