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where do I set the "boundries" in this trainer situation?

Hunter/Jumper
, , , ,
#21

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;7636812]
The quality, and expense, of an hour of the trainer’s time and teaching should be the same regardless of whether the horse in question will eventually be for sale.[/QUOTE]

Probably not, but there’s a difference in “I might someday sell this horse I’m taking lessons on” and “this is an import specifically for training and sale, the first of what will hopefully become a thriving import/train/sale business, except I’m not advanced enough to do the training myself.”

I don’t disagree that trainer might prefer to be paid by the hour, plus a commission if they find the buyer. But OP is essentially considering running a separate import/sale business out of trainer’s barn, and certainly trainer will have an opinion of how that should work financially. What that opinion is, none of us know.

#22

If it were me in your shoes, I would avoid keeping this horse in your trainer’s barn. There is no reason you can’t ship in for lessons or meet her at shows. If you will be showing the horse extensively, then most interested parties will try the horse at the show. If the horse is doing well and is in the standings, it will get attention. I think you should market your business independently from day one to avoid any confusion as to you somehow being affiliated with your trainer’s operation. Start building your reputation under your own name from the get go if that’s what you intend to do long-term. Everyone has to start somewhere.

All too often trainer relationships go sour - if your business is associated with her, where does that leave you?

If she finds a buyer, work out a referral fee. There’s no reason you can’t use your connection to her to your advantage - however, I wouldn’t want to be too far under her wing.

You can remain on friendly terms but still leave the nest.

#23

Food for thought. Just be aware that you will no longer be an amateur as soon as you step off the plane with a sales horse you do not own and begin to market said horse. You will essentially be collecting a commission and representing said horse for your European client, which will negate your amateur status in the US (you will also not be eligible to compete in any A/O classes on a horse that you do not own in full). Trainers and amateurs will be very hostile, with good reason, towards “amateurs” who are competing on European sales horses. Are you ready to compete against the pros?

In all reality, most likely your current trainer will be able to sell the horse faster and for more money with his/her connections and therefore make it worth while to pay her a commission. Horses sell based on quality, but also based on connections, especially with the “A” circuit horses. It is all about who you know.

#24

[QUOTE=Coanteen;7636784]
And with a sale business, if I was trainer and I knew you were not quite ready to bring a horse along, I’m not sure I’d consider my lessons just as lessons - it would be training a sale horse, so I wouldn’t be surprised if she wanted a cut. Especially if it was at her facility.
.[/QUOTE]

If I, as an ammy bought a youngster to develop and resell from home and paid a pro for ship in lessons, coaching at shows etc. I wouldn’t expect said pro to be entitled to a percentage of my sale just because they taught me. If they want a 20% cut of my horse they can discount all services by 20% and put up the same percentage when the vet and farrier demand payment. Unless they earn a commission by being a party to the sale, if I have provided for my horse at home and shown him to potential buyers why should they get a share?
Now, a young pro working out of the trainer’s barn is another story. If OP keeps horse at trainer’s barn and uses their facility and (possibly) her name, then I would think something is owed, above just board and training.

#25

I have shown on the A circuit on many circuits throughout the country. I have also been riding with, riding for, taking clinics, working for etc with as many trainers as I could for as long as I can remember. I have established a lot of connections and my entire life has pretty much been working my way up to turning this into a professional thing. I just worry about being that “young pro” that so many people don’t take seriously. That’s mainly why I want to stay amateur and continue to work with a trainer at least until I’m done with college. As I said before I know I still have a lot to learn and don’t expect I can do this without SOME training help.

I am lucky to have a great support system that make it possible to be in a financial situation where I can show and market these horses at A shows.

I’m leaning towards presenting it to her where I want to continue a great trainer relationship but I don’t think it’s appropriate to keep it at her barn. If she brings me a client that buys the horse she will obviously get her trainer commission but otherwise (as long as she agrees) I will just pay her in full for any services she provides for me!

#26

So, you take ALL the risk in this? I’d run, not walk away from this situation. It’s bound to go sour and do so quickly. and unless you can flip the horse FAST at a substanial profit, it really is a losing $ proposition.

As for the ammie question: if you are buying, training, selling and showing your own horse, you will remain an ammie. Who cares if people frown on it. You’re following the rules.

Most future pros will be better off working with a big name to learn the business and to start making a name/reputation for themselves.

for example: if you are working for Missy Clark and are having a lot of success in the rings, you have a better chance of developing a good reputation

than if

You are riding 1 horse at a time for yourself and doing well. You might get a small amount of notice, but it won’t really build a reputation.

Everyone does have to start somewhere, but most will be better served working with well-respected BNT’s before setting out on their own.

#27

No I said there’s a lot of details that I don’t really feel like going into on this forum. I’m essentially getting these horses for the price the brokers around here are paying. Not the price of an American coming to Europe to buy a horse. Plus there’s other things that are making it a win win situation for all involved. (As long as I can sell the horse haha)

#28

[QUOTE=RugBug;7638321]
So, you take ALL the risk in this? I’d run, not walk away from this situation. It’s bound to go sour and do so quickly. and unless you can flip the horse FAST at a substanial profit, it really is a losing $ proposition.

As for the ammie question: if you are buying, training, selling and showing your own horse, you will remain an ammie. Who cares if people frown on it. You’re following the rules.

[/COLOR]

Most future pros will be better off working with a big name to learn the business and to start making a name/reputation for themselves.

for example: if you are working for Missy Clark and are having a lot of success in the rings, you have a better chance of developing a good reputation

than if

You are riding 1 horse at a time for yourself and doing well. You might get a small amount of notice, but it won’t really build a reputation.

Everyone does have to start somewhere, but most will be better served working with well-respected BNT’s before setting out on their own.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this sentiment. However, I think the difference in this situation is that she’s not coming back to ride FOR the BNT on BNT’s sale horses. She’s going to be riding her own horse(s) and trying to market them while training with BNT. That’s sort of comparing apples to oranges, unless OP is planning on doing a bit of both.

#29

[QUOTE=Spud&Saf;7638401]
I agree with this sentiment. However, I think the difference in this situation is that she’s not coming back to ride FOR the BNT on BNT’s sale horses. She’s going to be riding her own horse(s) and trying to market them while training with BNT. That’s sort of comparing apples to oranges, unless OP is planning on doing a bit of both.[/QUOTE]

Honestly, she’s admitted that she’s not ready to bring a horse along on her own. IMO, that means she’s not ready to do be on her own. She needs to continue her education by working/apprenticing with a BNT and if she’s training/selling her own horses as part of the program she’s worked out with the BNT, then good for her.

#30

[QUOTE=teagles;7638362]
No I said there’s a lot of details that I don’t really feel like going into on this forum. I’m essentially getting these horses for the price the brokers around here are paying. Not the price of an American coming to Europe to buy a horse. Plus there’s other things that are making it a win win situation for all involved. (As long as I can sell the horse haha)[/QUOTE]

So will you be buying the horse or wink wink “buying” the horse which is sort of what this sounds like?

#31

No I’m actually buying the horse. I just don’t want it to seem like I’m getting taken advantage of . Why?

#32

Just a quick thought -

OP, true wisdom is being aware of what you do not know.

When I was (what I’m assuming to be) your age, I wanted to be on my own so bad to prove that I was or could be a legitimate pro.

Looking back, that was the worst decision I could have made. The name of the game in this business is experience and connections and willingness to learn. Skill, talent, money all help, but without those other three, it’s a tricky road.

My advice would be to be honest with yourself about what you could glean from working with the US Trainer. What sort of connections, advice, etc. would you be able to get from her?

If the potential purchaser makes an offer on the horse based on PPE findings, will you counter? What if the horse hasn’t sold in a couple months? Do you reduce the price? Advertise differently? Get it in front of different people? What happens if it gets hurt? When do you cut your losses, when do you draw the line at expensive diagnostics?

If you’re prepared to deal with these situations (+ a thousand more) on your own or through your contact in Europe (be aware that a contact 5000 miles away is helpful, but not the same as eyes on the ground), then separate yourself from the US Trainer and haul in for lessons. Make it clear that you’re stepping out on your own, even as an ammie, so that she doesn’t try to get a slice of the pie.

But what I would do is approach her about some type of mentor relationship. Ask her to teach you the ins and outs of this business with the future goal of you being on your own after X years or X number of flips. Tell her that in exchange you’d be willing to give her a 5% commission and then see how she negotiates.

You will no doubt get a good reputation faster, sell more horses, gain more experience and connections and learn more with her help. Keep you eye on the end goal, not how you feel now, and make the smartest decision on how to get there. It’s not about selling 1 horse, it’s about how to set yourself up with the best opportunity to succeed in the buying/selling business (which is NOT an easy business to break into and is fraught with risk!!!), which means you WILL need connections, experience and a good reputation. Can you build that on your own?

Having a “help” network is not showing weakness, it’s showing strength and wisdom.

PS. ALL good pros exchange ideas and help each other. You want to build a foundation where you’ve set yourself up in the future to call the trainer and say “hey can I get your thoughts on this?” and have her not nickle and dime you because you’ve shown her that you value her opinion and her help and that you’ve worked your way up to be on more equal footing.

#33

It just sounds like you are being given the opportunity to buy a horse at a low price and when it sells, you agree to pay an addtional percentage back to the seller.

I’ve done this a few times. It is a way to buy a horse more affordably and as a seller, you are both giving an opportunity to a young rider and potentially getting more for the horse. The horse does belong to the rider so it isn’t against the ammy rules.

To me, you treat the relationship with your trainer the same as you would if you owned any other horse. Trainers that I train with get paied their lessons fees. If they allow me to show a horse to a potential buyer at the facility, we typically pay a facility fee.

This IS NOT COMPLICATED. Just have a conversation with the trainer ahead of time about showing a horse for sale at their barn. And if you need more help in the sale…have a conversation about expectations and what help you can get.

The only time a trainer has a right to a commission on a sale is if they do something to further the sale BEYOND just helping me train the horse. If they bring in a buyer, or run the ads and field the phone calls. You just need to be clear up front with them. But otherwise…all you are doing is buying a sales prospect. How involved you need your trainer to be, depends on you. If you haven’t sold many horses…then you very well may want and need her assistance…and then that should include giving her a commission.

I will note that this will not do all that much to launch your business…although it is a start. Until you have your own farm, and your own program…and multiple horses for sale…this isn’t likely going to cover or pay your monthly bills. But the more young propects you bring along and sell…the more you can develop a reputation for having nice horses and the more you are likely able to sell.

And pretty much EVERY Pro I know…even those riding on the team for WEG or the Olympics…still take lessons and get help with their horses at all levels.

#34

So you are ‘working’ in Europe but not being paid in anyway? You’re paying your own living expenses over there? You’re a full time college student. You can afford to buy the horse, import it, pay to keep it somewhere, pay for lessons, pay to campaign it on the bigger circuit, have time to be a full time college student, and work whatever non horse job you’re working to make all this money its going to cost to support and progress this horse through the levels to get it sold for a big enough profit to cover all your expenses.

No offense, but you either don’t sleep, your parents are paying your expenses, or you are hiding being a pro.

Just saying, something seems sketchy and people are going to bring it up often if you’re trying to show ammy.

#35

[QUOTE=skrgirl;7640269]

No offense, but you either don’t sleep, your parents are paying your expenses, or you are hiding being a pro.

Just saying, something seems sketchy and people are going to bring it up often if you’re trying to show ammy.[/QUOTE]

I think it was pretty clear in their posts that their parents are going to help them…as she has to present a business plan to them. Just like may starting in business, her family helping her. If you are selling horses for yourself…you are NOT a pro. The pro/ammie rules are wacky. I own a barn, have horses for sale and people who work for me…I’m not a pro. I’m not paid by others to ride, sell and train their horses. I ride, sell and train my own horses. I could make 1,000,000 a year selling horses and still not be a PRO under the rules because they are my own horses.

#36

BFNE,

Yes, you can train and sell your own horses with out being a pro. I think some of the incredulity comes from trying to imagine this being an actual business that is striving to make a profit. What is the rule about family-owned horses? What if Op “owns” the horse but her parents are footing all the bills. How does that work out?

I just can’t see how this will work: OP buys horse (or parents do), brings it to the US (may or may not be paying importing/shipping costs), boards, takes lessons, shows, etc and expects to sell the horse for a profit? Unless the horse can be purchased for next to nothing and flipped FAST and for a lot, I’m seeing little to no profit margin.

You either need to be REALLY good with the right reputation or be able to keep horses for next to nothing to make something like this work.

#37

I’m not sure if you mean “how does that work out” as in being profitable or being an ammy, but she’s still an ammy if her parents are “footing the bill” so to speak, as long as it’s registered under her ownership. If this weren’t the case, then nearly every junior would have to go pro after they age out.

#38

I must have missed where it said her parents were paying. Woops.

#39

[QUOTE=teagles;7636652]
Only thing I’m getting while in Europe is valuable knowledge, connections, and bigger muscles.

Thanks for all the input it’s very helpful![/QUOTE]

However, once you return and start training horses to sell you will be a pro. If you are getting any kind of salary in Europe then technically you are a pro already; unless you are paying for the experience and knowledge and getting no monies.

As far as the situation here in the US. You and your parents (if you are not legal age) need a sit down discussion with the trainer and everything needs to be spelled out clearly. You will be running a business out of her barn training and selling horses, I’m guessing she will want a percentage and more so if she finds buyers. If she is in the business of training and selling she might tell you to find your own barn! You need to involve the trainer from Europe that is going to be sending the horses for sale, this needs to be worked out with all parties.

#40

[QUOTE=teagles;7640024]
No I’m actually buying the horse. I just don’t want it to seem like I’m getting taken advantage of . Why?[/QUOTE]
Nothing wrong if it is truly a sale but your reference to “other things making it a win win situation” made it sound like it might not be a straight purchase but more of a silent partnership deal.

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