where do I set the "boundries" in this trainer situation?

[findeight]

Whatever the arrangement, think no way it’s going to work unless trainer is on board with OP running sales horses thru his/her business. This may or may not involve commission but needs to be brought out in the light BEFORE this business plan is finalized. It is trainers facility and this won’t be an occasional owner selling a horse privately.

Perhaps the title of this thread should be " what boundaries might my trainer put on me running a sales business out of their barn?" Particularly when they also buy and sell as a big part of their income.

Its possible to make this work if you import the right horses at the right point in their training and present them to a substantial buyer pool ( like WEF) and can sell them quickly. BUT…I don’t see how it will work one horse at a time while boarding/training at full price in an active show barn and I am assuming going to shows under that barns care.

If OP owned a small farm with decent indoor and a full set of show jumps bringing in a private trainer and brought several over at a time? Think that works much better then full board and training sucking at least…what…? Couple grand a month? 24k a year out of the potential " profit". That on top of vet, farrier and show expenses and on the road trainer fees.

Word to OP…there are numerous " wink wink cough cough" ownership schemes out there, don’t be surprised if some raise an eyebrow if you share you have an " arrangement" that allows a sub market purchase price and you split any profit with them…assuming there is a profit which is a major assumption.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=RugBug;7640708]
BFNE,

Yes, you can train and sell your own horses with out being a pro. I think some of the incredulity comes from trying to imagine this being an actual business that is striving to make a profit. What is the rule about family-owned horses? What if Op “owns” the horse but her parents are footing all the bills. How does that work out?

I just can’t see how this will work: OP buys horse (or parents do), brings it to the US (may or may not be paying importing/shipping costs), boards, takes lessons, shows, etc and expects to sell the horse for a profit? Unless the horse can be purchased for next to nothing and flipped FAST and for a lot, I’m seeing little to no profit margin.

You either need to be REALLY good with the right reputation or be able to keep horses for next to nothing to make something like this work.[/QUOTE]

Thats why why I said this really is not a business plan that one can survive on. You really only make a profit selling a horse in this situation if you flip them within 3 months. And even then, one horse at a time will not cover monthly living costs. You may be able to fund your riding habit and learn a few things but it certainly will not make the foundation of a business. Having your own farm or a deal with some farm owner is really needed. I have a pro the rents stalls from me. We cut a deal for her to make it affordable for her but not lose me money. But if she was paying full board rate…no way would she be able to survive.

[ladyj79]

While it may not be your ideal plan, it might be better to start with a sales prospect that requires less of an initial investment and just see what kind of interest you get. But my initial thought would be for you to maybe go ride for one of the guys who’s already running a successful. business importing sales horses and see how that whole game is played without any of the risk. I’d much rather learn from someone who’s already successful doing what I want to do than having to figure it all out myself.

[findeight]

What happens if you don’t sell at a profit? Does the European connection just shrug their shoulders, say " oh well" and send you another at below market price? What kind of strings are attached if it gets hurt and is off for a year? What is the expectation on the other side if the pond waiting for ROI from your side?

You could end up owing them and/or seeing your deal fall apart when you are too slow to sell or don’t get enough and they don’t make another available. They won’t sit quietly and wait for you to sell either, it’s pure business.

Its all about money and making a profit, you better be sure that will happen before entering into this kind of deal.

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=findeight;7641327]

Its possible to make this work if you import the right horses at the right point in their training and present them to a substantial buyer pool ( like WEF) and can sell them quickly. BUT…I don’t see how it will work one horse at a time while boarding/training at full price in an active show barn and I am assuming going to shows under that barns care.

If OP owned a small farm with decent indoor and a full set of show jumps bringing in a private trainer and brought several over at a time? Think that works much better then full board and training sucking at least…what…? Couple grand a month? 24k a year out of the potential " profit". That on top of vet, farrier and show expenses and on the road trainer fees.[/QUOTE]

This really is key.
It is possible to make money, but the key factor in doing so is to be able to reduce expenses. Key strategies involve keeping the horses in a low cost zip code and trailering out for your lessons and sales connections. You don’t need your own indoor and jumps, since you can trailer out for lessons -but then you need to be highly independent for all the times you are riding at home by yourself.

It would be a much, MUCH better idea (from someone who has done personal sale horses as an amateur) to instead find a way to be a working student with room and a sale horse stall covered, and do up your sale horses while being immersed in the educational opportunities of spending every day in a high quality program. That’s the dream life: endless education, a nice sale horse to ride and flip, probably other people’s nice horses to ride too, no overhead. THEN you can make some serious money too with a good horse, because you keep most of it instead of paying everyone else and their mother too.

Try not to do it the hard way if you don’t have to.
Especially if someone else’s money is funding your dream. Try not to spend their cash too quickly. Be cognizant of your investors and protect them first and your ego second.

[IPEsq]

To clarify for those who question the parents’ financial input:

USEF definition of “Amateur Owner Hunter” (this being the most restrictive of the amateur rules)

To be ridden by Amateur Owners or an amateur member of the owner’s family.
In either case classes are restricted to riders who are no longer eligible to compete as junior exhibitors. Leased horses are not eligible and multiple ownership is not permitted unless all owners are members of the same family.

[ponysize]

no one was questioning the parent’s input in that way. Her parents can pay the bills all they want, but I have a feeling that OP’s experiences in Europe have already made her a pro and she’s not aware of it.

[gottagrey]

i you are buying the horse and paying for the shipping costs then the only thing you have to consider is whether or not the horse will be sold for enough $ to cover his cost / purchase and shipping. If the boss in Europe isn’t expecting anything else financially from you except maybe referrals for horse sales then the issue at hand is w/ the trainer here. The way to set boundaries is by letting the trainer know what you plan to do. If the horse is at trainer’s barn they might have some policy like they expect a % commission of any sale/purchase of any horse in that barn or % for finder’s fee. If you can work out a situation where you train and compete the horse yourself w/ some assistance from a trainer where you pay that trainer for their time/lessons/coaching then when you sell the horse as long as they are not involved in the marketing of it, I can’t see where you would need to pay any %. If they were to bring a client to you, then client could potentially pay commission to them.

[IPEsq]

[QUOTE=ponysize;7641758]
no one was questioning the parent’s input in that way. Her parents can pay the bills all they want, but I have a feeling that OP’s experiences in Europe have already made her a pro and she’s not aware of it.[/QUOTE]

there was this statement:

However, once you return and start training horses to sell you will be a pro.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=ponysize;7641758]
no one was questioning the parent’s input in that way. Her parents can pay the bills all they want, but I have a feeling that OP’s experiences in Europe have already made her a pro and she’s not aware of it.[/QUOTE]

I questioned the parents involvement from a business standpoint and asked for clarification on ammie/family rules (rather than going and reading it for myself…lazy, I know.)

I, too, have a feeling the European experience already makes her a pro…or at the very least, gives the impression that she’s a pro. She’s really not getting a dime…or any bartered items (free room and/or board) from this experience? Any bartered items would also already make her a pro.

But I suppose the important piece is that even before any of this is happening, her ammie status is being questioned. Can you imagine how much that is going to increase once she’s back in the US and importing/selling horses? She can be totally legit, but people are going to question and starting out with folks questioning your status is NOT a the way to build a good reputation.

[PaintPony]

[QUOTE=IPEsq;7641780]
there was this statement: “However, once you return and start training horses to sell you will be a pro.” [/QUOTE]

If she is training and selling horses that she OWNS she is NOT a pro. From what I have read it seems like she will be the owner of the horse she brings back to the US.

[RockinHorse]

[QUOTE=PaintPony;7641827]
If she is training and selling horses that she OWNS she is NOT a pro. From what I have read it seems like she will be the owner of the horse she brings back to the US.[/QUOTE]

If her European experience has not damaged her ammy status and if she and her parents are the sole owners of any horses, this is true, however, from what is written I still wonder if the European connection would actually be a silent partner in ownership. Not that it would be provable so I guess it wouldn’t count…

[ponysize]

[QUOTE=IPEsq;7641780]
there was this statement:[/QUOTE]

I think that stemmed from the fact that it was a while before OP stated she was actually purchasing the horse. From the beginning, the impression was she was bringing home a sales horse that belonged to the European.

[findeight]

@teagles;7636574

Sorry for that kinda awkward title but any/all advice is appreciated!
Situation: I’m a young amateur (aspiring professional) and I have been working in Europe this summer for a training/sales barn. My boss here has asked if I want to try to begin a partnership with him when I get back…

This is what is confusing people.

[findeight]

[QUOTE=teagles;7638362]
No I said there’s a lot of details that I don’t really feel like going into on this forum. I’m essentially getting these horses for the price the brokers around here are paying. Not the price of an American coming to Europe to buy a horse. Plus there’s other things that are making it a win win situation for all involved. (As long as I can sell the horse haha)[/QUOTE]

This also sounds like silent partners or investors are backing you in anticipation of profiting.

[ponysize]

Sorry for that kinda awkward title but any/all advice is appreciated!
Situation: I’m a young amateur (aspiring professional) and I have been working in Europe this summer for a training/sales barn. My boss here has asked if I want to try to begin a partnership with him when I get back…

And this is what makes most of us think you are already a pro…

[Eclectic_Horseman]

Boundaries. ijs

[Coanteen]

[QUOTE=ponysize;7641887]
And this is what makes most of us think you are already a pro…[/QUOTE]

I think “working” could just be working student, not necessarily confusing.

The “partnership” part is confusing. If all OP is doing is buying horses at a good price, train them up herself, and sell them, that’s not much of a “partnership”. And the good price from Euroguy would be…out of the goodness of his heart?
Now, if there is a real partnership, the good price is a consideration and Euroguy expects some financial return as well after horse is sold, then OP is not merely selling personal horses, and is not an ammy. And surely he must expect something for giving the OP such a price break.

[IPEsq]

[QUOTE=PaintPony;7641827]
If she is training and selling horses that she OWNS she is NOT a pro. From what I have read it seems like she will be the owner of the horse she brings back to the US.[/QUOTE]

I’m not arguing with this at all. A couple posts above, I quoted the rule.

[ponysize]

[QUOTE=Coanteen;7641927]
I think “working” could just be working student, not necessarily confusing.

The “partnership” part is confusing. If all OP is doing is buying horses at a good price, train them up herself, and sell them, that’s not much of a “partnership”. And the good price from Euroguy would be…out of the goodness of his heart?
Now, if there is a real partnership, the good price is a consideration and Euroguy expects some financial return as well after horse is sold, then OP is not merely selling personal horses, and is not an ammy. And surely he must expect something for giving the OP such a price break.[/QUOTE]

most working student activities indeed make one a pro.