where do I set the "boundries" in this trainer situation?

[findeight]

[QUOTE=ponysize;7641946]
most working student activities indeed make one a pro.[/QUOTE]

If they are over 18, yes they do, I assume OP is over 18 if her boss here asked about going into a partnership with her. Usually when somebody says they are " working" they aren’t paying 100% of all their living expenses-that would be called vacationing at a working farm.

I was actually more concerned about the clarity of ownership for the A/Os then the AAs but both amateur and ownership seem a bit muddy or in the wink wink category here.

[fair_judy]

[QUOTE=Eclectic Horseman;7641892]
Boundaries. ijs[/QUOTE]

i was wondering when someone would mention that. took three pages…

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=fair judy;7642406]
i was wondering when someone would mention that. took three pages…[/QUOTE]

Oh, believe me…I’m sure most of us saw it right at first. But I try hard not to correct people’s spelling or grammar on the very certain chance that I will make mistakes as well. In fact, I did and hope people realize that I do actually know how to use an apostrophe and rather than point out the mistake.

[fair_judy]

lol i said mention, not notice for that reason! i don’t use caps when i am on informal forums, either. i am a spelling bug, a bad habit. also misuse the hell out of my commas. having read through this whole thread the OP has become more and more annoying with each word, actually. i am finding myself in the winkwink mindset and not much liking it. honestly, why would anyone with an actual business plan and talent to back it up come on the COTH forums for advice? and then begin to chafe at direct questions asked?

[hype]

My two cents for what it is worth. If you are aspiring to be a pro and need some experience bringing along a young horse, marketing it, showing it and selling it and are ok being paid in experience then go ahead. Your goal should be a break even type of business plan. Stay with your trainer and expect to pay her something if she is allowing the horse to be shown on her property, using her jumps etc under her liability insurance. If her contacts bring the buyer to you then expect to pay a full commission to her. The sooner you accept that you really do need to network with trainers the easier it will be to sell your horse especially if he is a top caliber horse. Even if I loved the horse, I would be leery of buying from a relatively unknown amateur. I certainly wouldn’t purchase a big dollar horse from someone I didn’t know. I would purchase a horse from someone my trainer knew and had successful business dealings with. People get screwed on horse business deals all the time. An unknown even muddies the waters more.

There are VERY FEW who are able to sell horses for true profits once all of the expenses are factored in. Most of those trainers who actually make money on horse sales have many many horses in their barns which offsets ones that get hurt or don’t pan out as anticipated.

Horses are very expensive and truthfully while I know it can happen, it’s very very difficult to make a profit on a horse even if you get him as a steal. Board, shoeing, showing, vets etc all add up very quickly and do not take a break if school gets crazy, the weather is horrible and you can’t ride or many other scenarios which might cause you to miss schooling or horse show time.

You’re an amateur without a huge junior show record-no Nick Hanness or Tori Colvin. Are people going to be watching you as you go into the ring? Probably not unless the horse starts winning and that’s going to take some time.

So, every month that goes by is probably another 2000. Keep the horse for a year as someone said and that is 24,000 and I’d guess if the horse is showing a lot, it is more than that.

Your goal should be to get rid of the horse as quickly as possible. In order to do that, you need people talking about your horse and the easiest and quickest way to do that is to have trainers speaking on your behalf.

[teagles]

I can’t believe I spelt boundaries wrong.

[teagles]

I read all the comments and I’m so far behind on replying that I’m going to TRY and cover the all the bases.
I appreciate the activity on this post and just to clarify, I’m here in Europe doing an official college internship. As I said before I’m not making money off of this. And by partnership I just meant this connection and new relationship.
I came to COTH because I have learned a lot from reading things on here and I think it’s great resource to get opinions from a group of people who, for the most part, know what’s going on. I tried my best to make it clear that I’m young and am very aware that I have plenty still to learn. Which is the main reason I didn’t want to have to throw a new “pro” title into the mix.
This opportunity was presented to me recently and I know I have a lot of things to figure out. Getting the input from everyone on here is helpful and I know there’s a lot of things to take into consideration before any deals are done. I’m sorry if I had a winkwink attitude that’s not how I was trying to come across.

Again there are responses on here that I really appreciated and thank you to the posters who took the time to answer my questions.

[findeight]

Not your attitude that inspired the “wink wink” perceptions-it’s the perception the actual ownership of the specially priced import may not be as it appears on the show entry form and others would be entitled to profit out of sale proceeds.

Thats a classic shamateur “owner” scheme. It’s fine and legal but not as an Ammy or Ammie Owner under USEF. And it’s been tried often enough some of what you said and how you said it raised eyebrows.

I know you might be excited about this venture but you need to be very careful how you proceed if you stay a legit Ammy. You probably have given enough personal info on here for somebody to deduce your real life identity too.

It might be best to turn Pro and go to work for a BNT to sell these imports. Few buy high dollar imports thru individual amateurs without going thru a trainer anyway and that going to eat a chunk of sale proceeds. There’s not a thing wrong with trying to make money off horses, but it’s hard to do it as a legitimate Ammy.

[IPEsq]

I don’t think the situation makes her a shamateur. It sounds like she is taking the full risk in the transaction. Yes, she may be getting a good price on the horse with the understanding that if she can turn a profit it could lead to the availability of future horses at a good deal from the same European agent. However, she is purchasing the horse and not just taking a consignment and bears the risk that she can’t sell it or doesn’t make any profit. Seems like she is bearing the full risk of ownership. So what if the horse is maybe under-priced to begin with? There are other scenarios where someone can snatch up an under-priced horse, most commonly because the owner needs to get out from under said horse’s expenses immediately and is willing to let it go for cheap. When dealing with European agents, though, she may be getting the “fair” price and not the typical US-buyer markup, which could be possible for anyone with the right European connections can get (these buyers are good at keeping themselves from being fleeced either through their own business savvy or by dealing with honest agents).

If the details make the relationship more like joint ownership with the European connection, then she could still be an amateur, just not qualify for amateur-owner classes, as agent is not part of her family.

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=hype;7642565]
So, every month that goes by is probably another 2000.[/QUOTE]

Um, it is completely possible to keep a horse and train it up for significantly less than $2,000 a month.

[findeight]

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;7643392]
Um, it is completely possible to keep a horse and train it up for significantly less than $2,000 a month.[/QUOTE]

Sure it is, but that figure came up as an estimate of keeping the horse in full board at an active show barn on the east coast and OP did say she was not able to train it up unassisted and would need trainer services, not a DIY situation.

Just a ballpark number for OP to consider against potential profit from a sales horse.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;7643392]
Um, it is completely possible to keep a horse and train it up for significantly less than $2,000 a month.[/QUOTE]

Yes, it is possible to keep and train a horse for less than that. But it’s not very possible to keep it with a trainer, take lessons, and show with that trainer for less than that. Heck, even showing 2x a month without a trainer is going to be about $1200 alone. To get people interested in the horse at any sort of decent price, it’s going to have to be shown…

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=RugBug;7643460]
Yes, it is possible to keep and train a horse for less than that. But it’s not very possible to keep it with a trainer, take lessons, and show with that trainer for less than that. Heck, even showing 2x a month without a trainer is going to be about $1200 alone. To get people interested in the horse at any sort of decent price, it’s going to have to be shown…[/QUOTE]

You do not have to show twice a month to get people interested in your horse.
Much better to go to one or two more prestigious places and get a piece.

I kept three horses at a beautiful barn in NJ, took a lesson per week on each of them, and the total monthly bill for all three was ~ $2,500. This is within driving distance of Manhattan.

I kept horses at a nice private place outside of Houston and paid $300 per month (actually less because by then I had turned pro and rode some of the private owner’s horses for a board reduction). Hacked down the road for lessons with the h/j trainer which were free because I took care of his place when he travelled, trailered to dressage.

In WNY the average monthly bill for each horse was $500 including farrier, trailered out for lessons.

There are several places I could go that would offer the room & stall scenario that I initially suggested to OP.

If OP wants to know how to make sale horses (or just making up a high dollar contender for yourself to ride) a financially viable option, someone who has actually made up A circuit competition horses from unbroke to the ring on a shoe string budget may have some ideas, no?
Rather than just saying it’s $$$$$$$?

I have been making up horses that turn out well beyond anything I could have afforded via the “standard options” for 10 years, and I spent far FAR FAR less than $2k per month per horse. But if everyone just wants to pay everyone else $2k+ per month all the time and say it’s impossible, by all means, go ahead. Not my circus, not my monkeys.

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=findeight;7643409]
Sure it is, but that figure came up as an estimate of keeping the horse in full board at an active show barn on the east coast and OP did say she was not able to train it up unassisted and would need trainer services, not a DIY situation.

Just a ballpark number for OP to consider against potential profit from a sales horse.[/QUOTE]

OP specifically stated she did not want to keep the horse at the trainer’s barn.
You can still trailer in for help without signing up for the whole cruise.

My responses were tailored to the fact that she specifically said she did not want to board with trainer.

[RugBug]

duplicate post…weird

[RugBug]

meup: have you ever marketed these horses for sale? Do they have a USEF record to substantiate a hefty purchase price? Because I could say that my horse was worth more than my house* but until I actually sell her for that, she’s not.

There are plenty of ways to keep and even show horses on a limited budget. But if you are looking to sell for $$$$, the horse needs to show enough to be okay with it and to have decent results that can prove its worth.

*I’m not likely to say that living in CA where a 2 bedroom condo is $350k

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=RugBug;7643606]
meup: have you ever marketed these horses for sale? Do they have a USEF record to substantiate a hefty purchase price? Because I could say that my horse was worth more than my house* but until I actually sell her for that, she’s not.

There are plenty of ways to keep and even show horses on a limited budget. But if you are looking to sell for $$$$, the horse needs to show enough to be okay with it and to have decent results that can prove its worth.

*I’m not likely to say that living in CA where a 2 bedroom condo is $350k[/QUOTE]

When professionals with well-reputed sale programs ask me, “I have people coming in $x price range, do you want me to show them yours?” I consider that a fairly good indicator.

But anything could break its leg in the pasture tomorrow and promptly be worth $0, so there’s always that.