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Where to find a saddlebred broodmare

Sport Horse Breeding
#201

My statement was particularly about New Holland and from what I have seen there, horses with great conformation, healthy in good flesh with training do not sell cheaply enough to go to the kill buyers. There are plenty of other hole in the wall auctions you can dump a horse in.

The auctions in my region are flooded with TBs and STBs from the racing industry, unhandled and indiscriminately bred range horses, ASB culls, and various horses with poor conformation, injury or needing rehabilitation.

There is such vehemence directed against anyone on this board who decides to breed a horse for themselves unless it is a registered warmblood or other breed du jour with a solid show record. In my experience, it is not the well-planned, trained and cared for horses that are contributing to the bulk of the slaughter pipeline.

#202

Bayhawk,

Let me re-phrase the question:
Which ranking system that does not limit itself to member registries only (therefore excluding a vast majority of breeds regardless of performance because they are not relevant to their breeding societies and cash base) and that ranks all competitors, correctly identifying their bloodlines, not just registry affiliation, were you referring to?

Saddlebreds , Thoroughbreds, Standardbreds, Arabians, Morgans, Quarterhorses, etc., etc. are not going to appear on ranking systems. Only their part-bred offspring may appear –if they have been registered in a member registry. You know who gets credit for that. And there is that pesky problem of the simple lack of FEI level competition in North America and its high cost here compared to availability of competitions in Europe.

And the ‘recordkeeping’ of the USEF being in the dark ages compared to the EU…

-But you knew that.

Ignorance may be bliss, but it doesn’t support argument.

There was a time when some humans believed they were better at X because they did not compete against excluded classes of other humans, whether ‘amateur sport’ or ‘economic, educational or racial profiling’ or simply non-competition with distant populations.
Keeping records on a part of a population and then painting the world with that broad brush can be historically embarrassing…

Thank you for a response

#203

If this question is off-topic, I apologize in advance. I have often seen on this sporthorse forum mention of the importance of the broodmare’s contribution to the breeding equation, the importance of proven performance records, and breeding the “best to the best”. At the larger breeding facilities, here and overseas, do many or most of the broodmares have upper-level performance records, or do their riding careers begin and end with the respective registry’s inspection/mare performance tests? If so, how is their worth as a broodmare capable of passing on the “right” genetics determined? Is it based solely on their pedigree (based upon evaluation of similar genetic characteristics, but certainly still a guess), the results of limited training for the performance test (may or many not be capable of higher performance levels, due to talent or physical soundness) and/or the performance records of their offspring (which may take many years to evaluate).

#204

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7430812]
Bayhawk,

Let me re-phrase the question:
Which ranking system that does not limit itself to member registries only (therefore excluding a vast majority of breeds regardless of performance because they are not relevant to their breeding societies and cash base) and that ranks all competitors, correctly identifying their bloodlines, not just registry affiliation, were you referring to?

Saddlebreds , Thoroughbreds, Standardbreds, Arabians, Morgans, Quarterhorses, etc., etc. are not going to appear on ranking systems. Only their part-bred offspring may appear –if they have been registered in a member registry. You know who gets credit for that. And there is that pesky problem of the simple lack of FEI level competition in North America and its high cost here compared to availability of competitions in Europe.

And the ‘recordkeeping’ of the USEF being in the dark ages compared to the EU…

-But you knew that.

Ignorance may be bliss, but it doesn’t support argument.

There was a time when some humans believed they were better at X because they did not compete against excluded classes of other humans, whether ‘amateur sport’ or ‘economic, educational or racial profiling’ or simply non-competition with distant populations.
Keeping records on a part of a population and then painting the world with that broad brush can be historically embarrassing…

Thank you for a response[/QUOTE]

Again…the flag waving of the “Amazing Saddlbred” as a sporthorse is what prompted my response. When you do in fact wave this flag , there should be some documentation to back it up shouldn’t there be ?

There is no documentation that the Saddlebred is an “Amazing Sporthorse” and no matter what excuse you give for this…the fact remains that there is not.

#205

It’s snowing like crazy & I’m bored, so I’ve been browsing this thread.

So far no one has suggested this: if the OP wants a sweet-tempered, good-minded horse for lower level dressage, why doesn’t she just go out and BUY ONE?

Instead of looking for an ASB mare, why not look for a young ASB gelding and just cut to the chase?

Seriously, is the OP planning on starting an entire breeding program of ASB/WB crosses to sell to the public? If so, it’s gonna be slow going w/just one mare. OR is she breeding just to produce a horse for herself? If this question was answered, I missed it.

Honestly, I personally believe that as long as a horse is sound and willing, it’s the training that contributes most to success in “sport” (and my definition of that word is “any competitve activity that a horse does undersaddle.”)

I do get somewhat concerned with the “Frankenstein” syndrome that some beginning breeders have…they think “well, if X breed has this quality and Z breed has THAT quality, then if I cross the 2 breeds I’ll get everything I want.”

As others have pointed out, that is NOT the way breeding works. Even high & mighty breeders like Bayhawk will admit their efforts fall short much of the time…that is how breeding REALLY works.

You have culls…many culls…especially if you are breeding for the top of the sport. Now what Bayhawk might call a “cull” could be the animal that stalls out at a low level of sport…the OP might call this a success.

I think people need to understand this before they decide to breed…

So, OP, WHY do you want to do this cross? Commercially? Or just for yourself?
If you wish to do it commercially, I would urge you to reconsider. If it’s for yourself, why not just skip buying a mare that is just a stepping stone and buy an ASB or even a ASB/WB cross that is already on the ground.

Trust me when I say you are not going to create some brilliant animal, nor are you the first to think “Ah, I bet THIS cross would be awesome.” If it was that awesome or commercial, many breeders would have been on it years ago.

I guess I’m just curious as to WHY you want to breed this animal. What is it’s intended use?

#206

[QUOTE=Sparrowette;7430682]
Bayhawk, your logic is faulty. You blame the horses for what people do with them.

It’s not the horse’s fault that the breed has not been used as a sport horse. Up until recently, the breed not been promoted as a sport horse. And yes - breed promotion matters. Promotion forms public opinion; that’s why advertising is such an industry.

This lack of promotion has in the past been a fault of the breed assn. As previously mentioned, the association has begun to promote the ASB as a sport horse, but that program is a relatively new one.

http://www.asha.net/Prize-Year-End-Awards

Notice it is only 3 years old. Public perception is not changed in that short a time period and public perception is the issue.

The ASB horse is capable animal with a long history of doing whatever their people needed them to do. That this has not been promoted and publicized, so that people like you will not exhibit the sort of prejudiced view I see here, is again, not the fault of the breed. It’s the fault of people connected with the breed, and I’m glad to see that’s changing.[/QUOTE]

Hi , I am in no way blaming the horse. The horse is not bred for sport…period. This is my only point that I have been consistent in making. There are few to no “Amazing Saddlebred Sporthorses” and I know this for a fact due to my attendance at shows.

I see what is in the ring. I see what is written about. Saddlebred blood is not on anyones radar that are showing and breeding sporthorses.

#207

Perspective is everything.

Appreciate the prompt reply.

For a dog registry to qualify for inclusion in the international canine breeds as a breed it requires 7 generations of documented closed breeding from the original foundation stocks.

‘Nearly purebred’ and ‘performance bred’ makes a wonderful performance animal, ask any commercial beef raiser of the value of crossbreds.

Restricted registry is not the same as closed registry in listing an animal as a breed.

We all wave our own flags proudly.
And we all can criticize each other, but what is the point if the horses perform to our delight?

#208

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7430901]
It’s snowing like crazy & I’m bored, so I’ve been browsing this thread.

So far no one has suggested this: if the OP wants a sweet-tempered, good-minded horse for lower level dressage, why doesn’t she just go out and BUY ONE?

Instead of looking for an ASB mare, why not look for a young ASB gelding and just cut to the chase?

Seriously, is the OP planning on starting an entire breeding program of ASB/WB crosses to sell to the public? If so, it’s gonna be slow going w/just one mare. OR is she breeding just to produce a horse for herself? If this question was answered, I missed it.

Honestly, I personally believe that as long as a horse is sound and willing, it’s the training that contributes most to success in “sport” (and my definition of that word is “any competitve activity that a horse does undersaddle.”)

I do get somewhat concerned with the “Frankenstein” syndrome that some beginning breeders have…they think “well, if X breed has this quality and Z breed has THAT quality, then if I cross the 2 breeds I’ll get everything I want.”

As others have pointed out, that is NOT the way breeding works. Even high & mighty breeders like Bayhawk will admit their efforts fall short much of the time…that is how breeding REALLY works.

You have culls…many culls…especially if you are breeding for the top of the sport. Now what Bayhawk might call a “cull” could be the animal that stalls out at a low level of sport…the OP might call this a success.

I think people need to understand this before they decide to breed…

So, OP, WHY do you want to do this cross? Commercially? Or just for yourself?
If you wish to do it commercially, I would urge you to reconsider. If it’s for yourself, why not just skip buying a mare that is just a stepping stone and buy an ASB or even a ASB/WB cross that is already on the ground.

Trust me when I say you are not going to create some brilliant animal, nor are you the first to think “Ah, I bet THIS cross would be awesome.” If it was that awesome or commercial, many breeders would have been on it years ago.

I guess I’m just curious as to WHY you want to breed this animal. What is it’s intended use?[/QUOTE]

I agree with this except for the high and mighty part ! Anyone that knows me will tell you I am not this way even if i may come across that way on a forum.

I just study and breed for the top of the sport and you are correct in your assertion in that when that horse falls short , it is usually perfect for the amateur. Why do people always assume that a horse with high breeding value is not good for an amateur ? This is uninformed.

#209

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7430912]
Perspective is everything.

Appreciate the prompt reply.

For a dog registry to qualify for inclusion in the international canine breeds as a breed it requires 7 generations of documented closed breeding from the original foundation stocks.

‘Nearly purebred’ and ‘performance bred’ makes a wonderful performance animal, ask any commercial beef raiser of the value of crossbreds.

Restricted registry is not the same as closed registry in listing an animal as a breed.

We all wave our own flags proudly.
And we all can criticize each other, but what is the point if the horses perform to our delight?[/QUOTE]

Welcome and it’s perfectly ok to wave any flag one is passionate about. However , when that flag waving is accompanied by an errant ,over zealous statement , expect to be challenged.

#210

[QUOTE=Megaladon;7425641]
Were not ASBs used at one time in Dutch breeding? I seem to recall an article written about a horse named “(something’s) Playboy” and when he got to the Netherlands his name was changed because play (spelled different) means toilet in Dutch.[/QUOTE]

Demarks Golden Boy changed to Holland’s Golden Boy and yes he was a saddlebred approved into the KWPN stud book section TP One of his descendants is Cream On Top who is approved Zangersheide.

There are numerous of his descendants that have been bred in the Netherlands to the riding horse stallions and registered in the RP DR and SP sections of the studbook.

#211

So far no one has suggested this: if the OP wants a sweet-tempered, good-minded horse for lower level dressage, why doesn’t she just go out and BUY ONE?

I did. A million post ago. That if the OP wants an ammy friendly horse…just go get a ABS with dressage ability already. Or a quiet WB or a Morgan or a grade horse with great movement.
To spend 2-5k to breed a mare that you are not familiar with to a Wb will more than likely not produce an offspring that you will get your money out of unless it goes under saddle to prove it’s value AND it turns out to have value and not a mismatch of a horse.
The biggest fail of this thread is the idea that you think that breeding works on the basis that you take two horses with different types of faults (hot and lack of movement) and they produce the best of both. That is soo flawed! That MIGHT happen but the odds are more likely that you get many traits that you didn’t want and horse by committee. It ignores the principles of breeding. And is one of the biggest reasons this should encourage debate on a breeding forum, regardless of breed.
And to the person that told Donella that is just her experience…I have posted many times on this thread that those crosses are common, there is a surplus of good ammy horses and they do go for slaughter. We live by the slaughter houses…we just don’t see one auction, we see the whole freaken NA situation. 82k alone in Canada. Then there is Mexico. Do not kid yourself that the average horse is not in danger of going to slaughter. Wb’s too if they are not of value!

That is the key, if a horse holds their value as a riding or breeding animal. Any horse can get hurt or not receive training but your best chances of giving that horse a decent life is to start with a demand and purpose.
Once again, that cross is competing with 1000’s of other horses with the same potential and the loser is dog food.
At least a purbred ASB has a history, network, branding, association all backing it to provide it with value. Unless you are a person with an amazing reputation as a accomplished breeder, (MO S.), you are going to have a hard time selling the product for what you put in it. And again, the cross my not have as much talent/marketability as either parent.

#212

D_B,
Spruce has a fairly extensive competition format. They list the breeding and the breeds. There is Welsh, QH and Tb. I have yet to see a ASB listed and there is no reason not to. There is even grade horses listed. Not saying they couldn’t be in the grade section (which are few and at lower levels) but it is not common, at all. Any horse can jump 3ft’ but if you want to talk about breeding to go beyond that…SB are statistically not the horse to start with for the best results and the least number of fails (dog food candidates)

#213

[QUOTE=ASBJumper;7430746]
The Morgan threads probably happened while Bayhawk was taking leave from all of us lowly, uneducated COTH horse people that bore him and infuriate him so.

In fact, I distinctly remember him getting involved in a discussion (I wanna say it involved Mezcalero…? my memory is fuzzy…) and crapping all over the idea of using TB mares to produce talented jumping horses. THOROUGHBRED mares. So, I’ll give him one thing - at least he’s consistent in his elitism. :lol:[/QUOTE]

The (again) funny thing is that the number of people who have produced international level horses and who post on this forum is very small, and except for Tom in Ireland they have all been TB crosses.

Saddlebred/TB crosses have always been used in showjumping and eventing. I always liked them, for the ones I knew where I have boarded in the past were sound, sensible, and had smooth-as-silk rides. Then I saw the ones at the National Horse Show and wow, those could make some really good dressage horses. They were not upside down or rigid in the top line and had fantastic hind legs.

#214

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7430935]
I agree with this except for the high and mighty part ! Anyone that knows me will tell you I am not this way even if i may come across that way on a forum.

I just study and breed for the top of the sport and you are correct in your assertion in that when that horse falls short , it is usually perfect for the amateur. Why do people always assume that a horse with high breeding value is not good for an amateur ? This is uninformed.[/QUOTE]

Just yanking your chain Bayhawk;)

And I agree…if a horse is bred for a good mind but doesn’t have the physical talent to succeed at the highest level, they are the PERFECT ammie horse.

And most horses bred for the top will NOT be capable of doing that level…again, any breeder will tell you that. The stats in horse racing have proven this over and over again. It’s not any different in dressage or jumping.

What makes a good “ammie” horse is one who is forgiving and willing…one who “can take a joke” as they say these days. Many (although not all) high level performers are like this.

Again, one should never try to breed down…always try to breed for the best, because easily 75% of those horses aren’t going to make it to the top anyway…so there are your “ammie” mounts.

#215

You know, this is a breeding forum.

If you went on a training forum and asked for training advice, how often would you get: Don’t bother, just gete something already trained?

If I were to realistically offer advice to all North American breeders aiming tothe sport market, wouldn’t I have to say: quit now, you have no hope of competing with Europe; You couldn’t learn their marebase in a lifetime and don’t have access to their best besides? Just go there and buy a nice gelding to show -and be grateful they were willing to part with it.

OP asked a question. People are trying to answer.

others aim to de-rail.
Such is the world of discussion anywhere.

OP is welcome to make up their own mind and is being given plenty of input from all sides, pro and con.

I am glad we have the opportunity to discuss, with all opinions welcomed.
Let’s continue.

#216

I’ve been sitting on my hands on this one, as I simply do not need any additional drama, but this is just so beyond ridiculous…

In the 50s through the 70’s, ASBs and crosses were predominant in the show jumper ring. How do we know this? And, more importantly, why don’t we have any documentation? Well, first off, we know this because no less than Champ Hough, Frank Chapot, and Adolph Mogavero, among so many others, KNOW this stuff, and they were more than willing to share the information.

The essential issue is twofold, on documentation. During those years, the American Saddlebred Horse Association was registering the largest crops ever, but, then as now, the vast majority didn’t make the show ring. Then as now, there were prejudices. So, it was easier to sell a nice looking, talented, amateur friendly horse that was “half-thoroughbred”, rather than stating that they were American Saddlebreds. Then, as now, most people have no idea what an American Saddlebred, worked as a sport horse, with that musculature, really looks like. What do they look like? A horse. A horse with substantial bone, elegance…well, after all, they are warmbloods.

And speaking of warmbloods, I am old enough to remember some of the first imports, and to have seen a bunch of them- from Abundance, to Preussengeist, and I watched Wonderland and Iron Spring build their program. The first imports- other than Abundance, IMHO, we really pukes. The Germans may have lost the war, but man, they were waiting to load up their junk for us, when we came looking. Iron Spring had a super generous program for Pony Clubbers- a discounted fee to one of their studs. Every pony clubber for miles bred their mare to that stud, and it was just garbage in, garbage out- but they could claim that their horse was a Dutch Warmblood, as long as the dam was registered. So, you want to sing the praises of the various warmblood groups, go ahead, but you are still dealing with a whole lot of horses who simply are not exceptional, no matter what verband they hail from. No, you do not get to say “that was then”. They still are part of YOUR history, if you are tunnel visioned on imported warmbloods, only.

The last warmblood I trained and showed was a mare named Girlande. She produced an approved stallion by one of the World Cup studs, if memory serves. I love horses, love them but I loathed her. She never gave you one step you didn’t work twice as hard for, and I was thrilled to see someone else show her at DAD and have the same fun with her. Yes, she was just one individual, but she was approved, produced well, and was well bred.

When my ASB stallion received a 78% from Hilda Gurney, I was over the moon. More than being part of any registry or group, having your horse evaluated by the best, on an even playing field is the test, isn’t it? For all of our horses.

Now, I will be the first to admit that the Europeans are doing a banner job of breeding fabulous athletes, and their focus and marketing have led to more sales, which allow them to continue to produce more, and hopefully better, horses. The American Saddlebred Horse Association has made no substantial effort to support any horses that are not part of the 10% that make successful show horses, in their microcosm. Ninety percent of the horses do not make that cut. Why? No vertical neckset. Yep, you guessed it- they are built uphill, have great impulsion, great minds, and make wonderful partners. But, as long as they get sold without their papers, dumped to the Amish, or worse, and the ASHA doesn’t move to celebrate their existence, how would YOU know about them? Anecdotal evidence perhaps? Word of mouth? People on the internet who have actually hands on experience with one? Yep.

I’ve PM’d the OP with a couple of mares that will do just right for her. That was why I originally signed on, after someone on my FB group mentioned this thread. I am off to go and pet an American Saddlebred, and play in the snow…

#217

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7431160]
You know, this is a breeding forum.

If you went on a training forum and asked for training advice, how often would you get: Don’t bother, just gete something already trained?

If I were to realistically offer advice to all North American breeders aiming tothe sport market, wouldn’t I have to say: quit now, you have no hope of competing with Europe; You couldn’t learn their marebase in a lifetime and don’t have access to their best besides? Just go there and buy a nice gelding to show -and be grateful they were willing to part with it.

OP asked a question. People are trying to answer.

others aim to de-rail.
Such is the world of discussion anywhere.

OP is welcome to make up their own mind and is being given plenty of input from all sides, pro and con.

I am glad we have the opportunity to discuss, with all opinions welcomed.
Let’s continue.[/QUOTE]

Seriously?
So the advice should be “just let 'em screw and see what happens?”.
The advice is breed with knowledge and not every horse should be bred. That is being morally responsible and responsible to the betterment of any breed.
And you missed the point. It isn’t that you should only breed if you can produce a top horse, you should breed the top horses AND have a market for those animals.
There is a really decent market in NA for well bred WB’s. When you can sell a foal for 15k, that is a healthy market.
I believe there is also a healthy market for ASB’s. Is the market that good for the crosses? Not if you register them with a WB association. As Donella pointed out, they will not do as well as their counterparts.

BTW, it used to be any type of WB would go for decent money because of supply and demand. Now the supply has caught up. If all those taking offense to this thread because of the ASB aspect check the other threads…average or below average WB’s are not encouraged to breed either. They do not have a good market and risk going to an Italian picnic.

ABS Stars- I think ABS’s are nice horses with potential, but do you really think that a person who is unfamiliar with ASB (needs this forum to find mares) has enough experience to try a cross? There were some sharp statements regarding ASB but if you sideline those, do you really think the average person should be a)breeding horses b) to attempt a cross because they think they are going to get the best of both worlds in one shot?

#218

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7430943]
Welcome and it’s perfectly ok to wave any flag one is passionate about. However , when that flag waving is accompanied by an errant ,over zealous statement , expect to be challenged.[/QUOTE]

Missed the challenge. Got the insult. Wasn’t affected.

Thanks, I appreciate the conversation, when you have something specific to say. As my posts do get wordy, I am unable to discern which you took to be errant, overzealous.

#219

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7431157]
Just yanking your chain Bayhawk;)

And I agree…if a horse is bred for a good mind but doesn’t have the physical talent to succeed at the highest level, they are the PERFECT ammie horse.

And most horses bred for the top will NOT be capable of doing that level…again, any breeder will tell you that. The stats in horse racing have proven this over and over again. It’s not any different in dressage or jumping.

What makes a good “ammie” horse is one who is forgiving and willing…one who “can take a joke” as they say these days. Many (although not all) high level performers are like this.

Again, one should never try to breed down…always try to breed for the best, because easily 75% of those horses aren’t going to make it to the top anyway…so there are your “ammie” mounts.[/QUOTE]

I have said this same thing forever…breed the best you can possibly breed and when it’s not good enough for the top , you are left with a perfect horse for many people.

You are correct…what happens when you only breed for an ammie horse and you don’t get it ? Lawn ornament or slaughter is the usual outcome.

This was my original thought when reading the OP’s opening remarks. Why ?

#220

An even funnier thing is that some of the posters who post with great authority on breeding & bloodlines & what makes a great riding horse have never bred Horse #1 and don’t even ride much.

Wonder who one of those posters is?:rolleyes:

But,hey, it’s the Internet, right? You have a keyboard, that makes you an expert.

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