For anyone interested in Saddlebred historic photos there is a thread going on now on the ‘other forum’
Most are pre WWII. There is some depth of pedigree and consistency of type temperament and soundness over a rather long time period with the breed, if that is desirable to breeders.
DY and Blume Farm - thanks for at least being open-minded about the points some of us are trying to make.
There is huge disparity in what constitutes a “Saddlebred” in terms of type and movement.
I myself have no use for the extreme upright, up-and-down motion of some of the more modern and “fashionable” lines of Saddlebreds.
And you will never, ever catch me saying that you can go out and breed any old ASB to a WB and it will be a nice cross. Heck no.
One has to do their homework, and yes, perhaps even moreso when outcrossing, in order to have any chance of achieving positive and consistent results.
The Saddlebreds I love and look for are short-backed powerhouses with sloped shoulders and phenomenal sitting power and good bone and substance.
But really, what I want out of the blood is the brains, the super high trainability, the incredibly hardy constitution (to quote one Hunter trainer I used to board with - they’re “the toughest sons o’ bitches out there”, LOL), the silky smooth gaits, the lightness and willingness that I discovered when I bought my first Saddlebred back in 1999.
This kind of Saddlebred that I think of when I think of what optimally they should look like was Higland Dale, I cannot post pictures but there is a good one of Elizabeth Taylor sitting on him that is readily available. He played Fury and Taylor’s characters’ horse in Giant.
[QUOTE=Calamber;7430172]
This kind of Saddlebred that I think of when I think of what optimally they should look like was Higland Dale, I cannot post pictures but there is a good one of Elizabeth Taylor sitting on him that is readily available. He played Fury and Taylor’s characters’ horse in Giant.[/QUOTE]
Yes, lovely - I like his grandsire even better. Fantastic type.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-g2q2hqDaaaE/UZr5w6KQxbI/AAAAAAAAArg/bxhjYAT7mjg/s1600/Highland+Denmark+%232.jpg
[QUOTE=beowulf;7430041]
Thank god the topic of this thread isn’t “How Bayhawk didn’t get his feelings hurt/How Bayhawk became part of an elite coterie”. The topic is “where to find the right saddlebred broodmare” and quite frankly, you stopped contributing pages ago. Instead of talking about yourself and your vast wealth of knowledge and opinions of significant value you could just, you know, go back to your thing and leave this poor thread alone. I wanted to stop replying because I felt like my contributions were contributing to the derailment but for crying out loud, this thread isn’t about you and your grandiose experiences.
And because I feel exponentially guilty for fueling the fire, here are some links I’ve dug up:
http://www.asha.net/Prize-Year-End-Awards
https://www.facebook.com/sporthorseinfo
http://www.equinejournal.com/features/471-saddlebred-sport-horses (contact Alan Balch, maybe?)
http://www.american-saddlebred.com/pages/protean-asbsport
http://modernsporthorses.com/
http://www.longgreylinefarm.com/ASBsport.htm (an interesting read)
http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/american-saddlebred.html (a well respected read)
ETA: I really like this mare: http://modernsporthorses.com/maggie.html That’s the second time I’ve seen an ASB today that was doing well in DR with the ASB stallion Modern Creation in the pedigree.[/QUOTE]
Then STOP replying to my posts…how many times do I need to say it. You won’t though because you can’t help but stir the pot.
[QUOTE=Megaladon;7430058]
Well, you certainly came out guns blazing in your first post and really destroyed any chance of having a dialogue with anyone. I believe your knowledge and experience is there, you just need to work on your tact. I know you feel your delivery is like your German friends, but believe me, from experience, it’s not. But, I don’t know, maybe it’s not your intent to catch more flies with honey, maybe you’d rather just kick the hornet’s nest and move on.[/QUOTE]
You are in no position to tell me what to work on and I never said my delivery was like my German friends. Don’t put words in my mouth.
A well-conformed, sound, sane, trained horse in good condition does not sell for $250 at that auction.
Oh really?
Here is the first one I bought about a month after we got him for a bit over $300.00. And the horse moved pretty nicely too. Turned out to be a really nice eventer for a junior rider:
http://s306.photobucket.com/user/SpruceViewFarms/media/Stakato2.jpg.html?sort=3&o=122
And here is another one that was an auction mart special, one of my most favorite horses ever. Half standardbred and half Holsteiner
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn273/SpruceViewFarms/DSC_0147.jpg
Anyways, I am not saying that all we need are auction marts for people looking for low level ammy horses or that an auction is a nice place to shop. My point was that because so many suitable horses get shipped, the market is clearly flooded with them. I could go through the local ads on Kijiji and I know I could EASILY find 10 pretty horses with nice temperaments for under $5000.00 bucks. The market IS flooded, we really don’t need people breeding with soley with those two breeding goals in mind.
I remember a few years ago we had a breeder in the area doing these crosses as she sent a few for training with us. She wanted $13k for a 5 year old with a really, really sweet temperament. He was pretty (if you like that type) and was easy to ride and had six months of professional training. Do you think I could sell that horse (and that is a big part of what we do here)?! Forget it. He is still sitting in her field. She sent the youngsters to the auction mart and one got shipped ( I know this because a bunch of us went crazy trying to get this poor guy out of Fort Macleod) and the other went through the CWB auction last year and while I thought he was nicer than a lot of the others there he sold for $3500.00 bucks. Totally ammy friendly, sound, well conformed horse. Honestly, I was surprised. To be honest I would think there would be a bigger market for a purebred ASB than this kind of cross?
Hello, Bayhawk,
What ranking organization were you referring to specifically?
++
OP and anyone interested:
for pics of Saddlebreds - the entire blog
http://theamericansaddlebred.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2012-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2013-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=3
If you look at pedigrees of mares for sale on line, you will find many of their ancestors pictured in the blog. you can certainly get a feel for what lines tend to produce what traits: ones you may desire or want to omit.
[QUOTE=Donella;7430237]
A well-conformed, sound, sane, trained horse in good condition does not sell for $250 at that auction.
Oh really?
Here is the first one I bought about a month after we got him for a bit over $300.00. And the horse moved pretty nicely too. Turned out to be a really nice eventer for a junior rider:
http://s306.photobucket.com/user/SpruceViewFarms/media/Stakato2.jpg.html?sort=3&o=122
And here is another one that was an auction mart special, one of my most favorite horses ever. Half standardbred and half Holsteiner
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn273/SpruceViewFarms/DSC_0147.jpg
Anyways, I am not saying that all we need are auction marts for people looking for low level ammy horses or that an auction is a nice place to shop. My point was that because so many suitable horses get shipped, the market is clearly flooded with them. I could go through the local ads on Kijiji and I know I could EASILY find 10 pretty horses with nice temperaments for under $5000.00 bucks. The market IS flooded, we really don’t need people breeding with soley with those two breeding goals in mind.
I remember a few years ago we had a breeder in the area doing these crosses as she sent a few for training with us. She wanted $13k for a 5 year old with a really, really sweet temperament. He was pretty (if you like that type) and was easy to ride and had six months of professional training. Do you think I could sell that horse (and that is a big part of what we do here)?! Forget it. He is still sitting in her field. She sent the youngsters to the auction mart and one got shipped ( I know this because a bunch of us went crazy trying to get this poor guy out of Fort Macleod) and the other went through the CWB auction last year and while I thought he was nicer than a lot of the others there he sold for $3500.00 bucks. Totally ammy friendly, sound, well conformed horse. Honestly, I was surprised. To be honest I would think there would be a bigger market for a purebred ASB than this kind of cross?[/QUOTE]
And you have hit the marketing nail right on the head.
When the admittedly nicer horse will not sell due to anti-marketing of a breed or registry, don’t you think it might be a good idea for those who are pro- the breed do a bit of Truth in advertising?
Which you are seeing here.
Distress sales or poor marketing can lead to a lot of ‘dumped’ horses.
I remember some very wellbred Canadian Sport Horses put through an auction in the USA that was attended primarily by QH, stock horse buyers. The seller couldn’t afford to ship them back home and some really nice horses were snapped up for next to nothing while the rest… we all know who the lowest end buyers are.
Only yesterday a mare of European WB brand went through Camelot when a broker couldn’t resell her quickly enough.
Or did you mean that imported stock should not be bred, either, if some go to auctions and slide to the bottom?
I don’t know if OP is breeding for themself or to sell. Or if they have a marketing plan that works.
The North American marketing of bred-at-home 2nd generation from imported European WB has been an uphill struggle in and of itself: many breeders are breeding for love, not money.
Donella, love the flying Boston Terrier!
(Sorry, back to the original topic)
[QUOTE=Donella;7430237]
I remember a few years ago we had a breeder in the area doing these crosses as she sent a few for training with us. She wanted $13k for a 5 year old with a really, really sweet temperament. He was pretty (if you like that type) and was easy to ride and had six months of professional training. Do you think I could sell that horse (and that is a big part of what we do here)?! Forget it. He is still sitting in her field. She sent the youngsters to the auction mart and one got shipped ( I know this because a bunch of us went crazy trying to get this poor guy out of Fort Macleod) and the other went through the CWB auction last year and while I thought he was nicer than a lot of the others there he sold for $3500.00 bucks. Totally ammy friendly, sound, well conformed horse. Honestly, I was surprised. To be honest I would think there would be a bigger market for a purebred ASB than this kind of cross?[/QUOTE]
And that is your very limited experience with ONE breeder.
Veronique Dumas bred a bunch of them and sold them all before their first birthday, some were even CUSTOM foals sold in-utero before they hit the ground. And heck, they weren’t even papered!
I know of a bunch of full, branded WBs being advertised for reasonable prices around my area that are also sitting in their breeders’ fields or trainer’s barns, also NOT getting sold. So…? What on earth does that prove, other than the economy has shrunk and the horse market is tough all around?
[QUOTE=DownYonder;7429254]
Most good breeders I know don’t really pigeonhole horses based on breed, but on PEDIGREE (bloodlines), because its the PEDIGREE that tells them what the horse is likely to throw.[/QUOTE]
You are absolutely right. Most good breeders stick to the pedigrees they know. Which is logical, sensible and the most predictable route to success. It’s completely understandable. You can’t know pedigrees on an infinite range of breeds and types. I support the OP and anyone else who wants to use a forum to find information about something they don’t know, and hate to see anyone squash and ridicule that search for information.
not sure if the OP is even still here, but did you have a look around the Georgian Grand website for contacts?
I am sorry if I am offending you, that really isn’t my intent. And I have nothing against Saddlebreds and quite like them for other purposes. As a pleasure mount, fine harness horse, saddleseat horse. Yes. They look great and I know they have really good temperaments.
My point is simply this:
Purpose breeding is not required to produce a horse capable of being successful at the low levels of anything.
There are a surplus of horses out there already that posses those particular qualities.
It therefor does not make sense from any perspective to produce more of something that there is already a surplus of. Especially when that “product” is a sentient being.
This really has nothing to do with what breed a horse it is and everything to do the ethics of breeding. There just simply is not a strong market for average horses (pretty or not) and it really doesn’t matter if they are a warmblood, ASB, QH or whatever. There are still a bunch of breeders in my area churning out hundreds of average smaverage warmbloods and lo and behold, there just isn’t a market for these horses. And yes, lots of them get shipped too. Long gone are the days where the dressage rider is happy just to have a warmblood.
Again, the issue is not that there is some big problem with ASB’s. The problem is that people are making unsound breeding decisions that collectively make a very big, negative impact on our industry.
ffb - I am trying to find out if a breeder who came up with some EXTREMELY nice WB/saddlebred crosses has any broodmares for sale as she is no longer breeding.
I think it’s important you get the right type of saddlebred and make sure several previous generations showed the same qualities. They can be very nice, move under themselves and sit very well, and have lovely temperaments. The challenge is that these horses are typically actually best to train to have the flamboyant show ring movement which will win (versus the common up and down front end on a horse with trailing hocks - which at least doesn’t win in the saddleseat ring if there’s a more correct and still flashy option.)
Personally, I think that as long as they have multiple generations of the right type saddlebreds could be used as Arabians and TBs have, for they are also riding horses and huge athletes. With inspections for quality, traits within their pedigrees to know what might show up in foals, etc. (Disclaimer: While I know the difference my brain regularly mixes up the words phenotype and genotype and therefore I intentionally just avoided using them.)
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7430205]
I never said my delivery was like my German friends. QUOTE]
Well, thank you for clearing that up.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7430240]
Hello, Bayhawk,
What ranking organization were you referring to specifically?
++
OP and anyone interested:
for pics of Saddlebreds - the entire blog
http://theamericansaddlebred.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2012-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2013-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=3
If you look at pedigrees of mares for sale on line, you will find many of their ancestors pictured in the blog. you can certainly get a feel for what lines tend to produce what traits: ones you may desire or want to omit.[/QUOTE]
You have asked me this several times now and I have not answered you for a reason. You can certainly look yourself , it is very easy to find , or in this case…not so easy to find “amazing Saddlebreds” ranked in sport.
My argument against “Saddlebred’s make amazing sporthorses” was correct. If that statement were true , then you would find some of them well ranked and accumulating points. Have a look…
Bayhawk, your logic is faulty. You blame the horses for what people do with them.
It’s not the horse’s fault that the breed has not been used as a sport horse. Up until recently, the breed not been promoted as a sport horse. And yes - breed promotion matters. Promotion forms public opinion; that’s why advertising is such an industry.
This lack of promotion has in the past been a fault of the breed assn. As previously mentioned, the association has begun to promote the ASB as a sport horse, but that program is a relatively new one.
http://www.asha.net/Prize-Year-End-Awards
Notice it is only 3 years old. Public perception is not changed in that short a time period and public perception is the issue.
The ASB horse is capable animal with a long history of doing whatever their people needed them to do. That this has not been promoted and publicized, so that people like you will not exhibit the sort of prejudiced view I see here, is again, not the fault of the breed. It’s the fault of people connected with the breed, and I’m glad to see that’s changing.
Sitting here as a non-breeder and Morgan fan, one thing that strikes me about this thread is how negative it is compared to most of the threads here that have been about Morgans or Morgan crosses for sport. (with a nod to Bayhawk and other “big name” WB breeders that these threads aren’t about producing internationally competitive horses – but this thread isn’t, either.) The Morgan threads have people bringing up examples of Morgans and crosses (especially Morgan/TB) that have done well on the local/national level, and almost no one poo-poohing the Morgan as a sport horse.
Given that the two breeds are similar in many ways – and in fact weren’t really considered two separate breeds until fairly recently, and have the same problem of all the money and attention being focused on the saddleseat/breed show horses, it’s very strange. Also, the ASB has an advantage of more height and possibly less expensive prices for horses that aren’t going to make it in the breed ring.
[QUOTE=quietann;7430704]
Sitting here as a non-breeder and Morgan fan, one thing that strikes me about this thread is how negative it is compared to most of the threads here that have been about Morgans or Morgan crosses for sport. (with a nod to Bayhawk and other “big name” WB breeders that these threads aren’t about producing internationally competitive horses – but this thread isn’t, either.) The Morgan threads have people bringing up examples of Morgans and crosses (especially Morgan/TB) that have done well on the local/national level, and almost no one poo-poohing the Morgan as a sport horse.
Given that the two breeds are similar in many ways – and in fact weren’t really considered two separate breeds until fairly recently, and have the same problem of all the money and attention being focused on the saddleseat/breed show horses, it’s very strange. Also, the ASB has an advantage of more height and possibly less expensive prices for horses that aren’t going to make it in the breed ring.[/QUOTE]
The Morgan threads probably happened while Bayhawk was taking leave from all of us lowly, uneducated COTH horse people that bore him and infuriate him so.
In fact, I distinctly remember him getting involved in a discussion (I wanna say it involved Mezcalero…? my memory is fuzzy…) and crapping all over the idea of using TB mares to produce talented jumping horses. THOROUGHBRED mares. So, I’ll give him one thing - at least he’s consistent in his elitism. :lol:
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