So is it safe for me to post again?
I’d like to apologize to anyone involved with Trahkeners for passing around a rumor and completely misreading an acronym although I still don’t know what ASB stands for unless it’s Australian Stud Book, which I thought was TB.
I’ve always been of the thought that these forums were for the dissemination of information and education among other things, some of the information being presented is very interesting and I hope the OP has success in her search.
[QUOTE=beowulf;7429466]
I didn’t read jealousy. Just mild disbelief that an adult human being could behave that way, and continue to justify it.
From your posts, you’ve given a variety of people a very distinct opinion of you, that is nowhere near flattering. Some of these people are clients to your elite circle. You may argue that you don’t care what “these people” think of you, but when you act in such behavior on a public forum you are outing and ostracizing yourself publicly - particularly to the people who help to financially keep the “elite people’s” business afloat. The ammy-market you scorn so much is apparently the boon for your business. Where do the WC/UL-bred horses that don’t make it trickle down to, if nothing else?
It seems that apparently all you do in your elite coterie/dinner talks is bash other people, horses, breeds,and decisions that aren’t really your business. According to your post[s], frequent insults and bashing of horses/people in the horseworld is common-place during table talk. :eek:
I am sorry that you feel the need to brag about this, and even sorrier that the amazing horses in our industry are produced by people who think and talk this way. In this instance I hope it is you that is the exception, and not the norm.
If the OP wants to make an unorthodox breeding selection, it is her decision and quite frankly, none of any of our business. So long as she is capable of living (and providing for) with the end result. Considering the WBs that people on this forum idolize so much came from unorthodox breeding decisions, I don’t see the horror.[/QUOTE]
Yada , yada yada. I don’t think you seem to understand that my opinions are just that…mine. If you don’t like them then don’t read or respond to them.
What makes you think that my strong opinions has anything to do with affecting my buisness ? I can assure it does not. Just as much as you are offended…others are just as much NOT offended.
You can brow beat me all you like…at the end of the day , the answer is still the same. I don’t care what you think.
[QUOTE=Megaladon;7429602]
My dinner experiences with German judges, trainers, breeders and veterinarians were filled to the brim with education. However, I would not consider any of the conversations to be rude or snide no matter how strong the opinions.[/QUOTE]
Nor did I say they were. I was just trying to relay that one needs a tougher skin when it comes to horses and breeding…especially when talking with the old breeders in Germany. They will flat out tell you a horse is [crap] no matter if it’s theirs or yours.
Stoney,
Thank you for your in-depth reply.
In the Saddlebred breed, a purebred mare that is not registered in the parent registry or one of the approved sister registries in other countries can never produce registered foals. She and her produce are gone forever. This also applies to mares whose papers have been withheld by a seller except in rare instances. All dam and sire lines are within breed at least back to the 1940’s before any unknown or out of registry ancestry can be found, although there are cases of falsified pedigrees up to about the 1980’s before DNA testing.
There are some breeders who do not believe horses outside of a very few breed-only disciplines should be bred at all, nor are they proud of horses tracing to their studfarms performing in those open /outside disciplines.
In the USA it is easy to show untraced horses in non-breed disciplines (including Olympic sport) and there is no mandatory microchipping: many Saddlebreds end up sold without papers or pedigree trace. These are included in no ranking or incentive system and are essentially unrecorded and untraceable except for a few published individuals of exceptional talent.
It is a fact that American horse buyers as a rule are performance-only buyers who want a horse to show tomorrow, not to breed. ‘Trainer approved’ is often the deciding factor.
Additionally, many consider any crossbred or horse of unknown pedigree as ‘warmblood’ and list the horse as WB for show or sale. Passing through several sellers, the horse may become ‘unregistered fill-in-the-blank with your favorite European WB breed’ –and the breeder themselves will not identify the horse, though they are sometimes amused by their success.
In the past, many breeders felt they were doing the breed no disservice by simply ignoring the horses performing in disciplines not exclusive to the breed
People are trying to change that over time, but fear of losing the ‘type’ and traditions of the breed must always be addressed.
Things are different over here…
Hi, Bayhawk,
Please state the ranking organization you are referring to?
Appreciatively,
[QUOTE=ReSomething;7429650]
So is it safe for me to post again?
I’d like to apologize to anyone involved with Trahkeners for passing around a rumor and completely misreading an acronym although I still don’t know what ASB stands for unless it’s Australian Stud Book, which I thought was TB.
I’ve always been of the thought that these forums were for the dissemination of information and education among other things, some of the information being presented is very interesting and I hope the OP has success in her search.[/QUOTE]
ASB = American Saddlebred
in Australia ASB stands for Australian Stud book
http://www.studbook.org.au/abouttheasb.aspx
In the USA it stands for American Saddlebred.
…and
Australian Sporthorse Breeders
http://www.warmbloods-australia.com/the_warmblood_horse/warmblood_studs_farms/a/australian_sporthorse_breeders.php
In the USA Saddlebreds are registered in the ASHA, slang in common use is ASB.
In Australia Saddlebreds are registered in the ASHAA.
Happy acronyms, everyone.
In the USA Saddlebreds are registered in the ASHA, slang in common use is ASB.
In Australia Saddlebreds are registered in the ASHAA.
Happy acronyms, everyone.
Thanks D.
[QUOTE=europa;7429494]
Not that I am defending Bayhawk but I too had a Grey Poupon moment when I thought of someone breeding an ASB to a WB. You have to remember that as a WB breeder we adhere to very strick guidelines and inspections of our horse stock. To then say “OH I WANT A SANE DRESSAGE HORSE BECAUSE WBS ARE HOT” so I am going to breed a ASB to get there doesn’t make much sense. If you really want a dressage horse then I can’t imagine why you would pick anything other than a WB. THEY ARE THE BEST IN THE WORLD…PERIOD.
I can’t think of anything that a ASB would bring to the table except some flaws because they are conformationally very different than WBs. The high set neck and straight backs are really not conducive to higher levels or even correct lower levels. That having been said each individual is totally different comprised of different pieces and could do a fine job I am sure. But why would you even take the risk when the whole PURPOSE of the European breeding models is to remove the doubt of some genetic flaw popping errantly up? Not to mention the resultant horse would not be registerable and there is some bias in the dressage culture to non-mainstream breeds. That is just looking at the reality.[/QUOTE]
The simple answer is that the Saddlebred as a light horse is a great alternative to Thoroughbred in the refining and lightening of stock - consider that they have a great deal of Thoroughbred blood in their breeding, yet were bred for riding and not for racing. Better constitutions, better feet, better legs, a better quality of movement, and better mental and physical agility. They are a softer horse to ride and work in the mind and body. Yet they still retain the light horse type with no heavy blood, and have the speed (well a fair bit of it anyhow!) and stamina of the Thoroughbred.
Not registerable? Absolutely, the main reason it’s not used. But we are talking about the qualities of the breed as above, not the paper, although of course Saddlebreds are also pedigreed animals.
As some others have said, I just discovered this thread having had an entire day of cabin fever due to storm Pax.
I agree with others that if one is purpose breeding for a jumper, dressage, eventer, reining horse, cow cutting horse, endurance, etc they should stick with the tried and true breed of horse that excels at that task. If one has an ASB mare that they want to breed for AA dressage they should look for another ASB stallion that has “dressage sport” qualities. If there is no ASB stallion that fits the bill, then look at other stallions in the same “group” of horse…like another poster said, Morgans, etc. This way you will have less guess work as to what the produce will be.
For example, I will use dogs as I think it is more clear. I know many bird hunters that have crossed a lab and a GSP to make a more keen, faster birding dog. The benefits they tell me are great. However, both these dogs are “bird” dogs, of similar type, similar size, similar body shape, etc. They did not cross their lab with a beagle…another great, and dare I say cute, hunting dog b/c their hunting skills are different, body type vastly different, size, etc. Although I could guarantee maybe the cutest puppies in the world from the cross, and maybe even a good random bird dog, the results would not be consistent. I think that point is what many folks here are trying to convey.
Regarding slaughter…the majority breed of horse that will end up in slaughter is going to be what is the majority of breed for that region. In Europe it is the WB, in the US it will be the stock horse. And yes, I am the opinion that, at least in Europe, the large scale “elite” breeders probably add to that population as much as the “backyard” breeder. Heck, one of Chester Weber’s horses was headed to slaughter in Europe. Certainly, that was not a poorly bred horse!
Over my years I have spent a lot of time with many folks that were the “elite” in their respective circle…be that horse folks here in the US, horse folks in Europe, veterinarians that were the best surgeons, lameness guy, Hollywood celebrities, scientists, etc. I could drop names whom I have lunched with as well. Thankfully most of them were quite jovial, diplomatic, and wanting to have true discussions/ conversations, and even if resolute in their opinions preferred to address it in a way that was educational, opened the listeners mind/ ears, provoked thought, etc. Egos exist in every field and some have a “style” of communication they like to call direct, honest, etc. Sadly, even when their opinions are of significant value it is almost always met with resistance, never invites conversation and rarely educates.
Blume - all I can say is “Well Done”. Nice to hear a calm and rational response. Who knew that a relatively simple original question would turn into this?
On the other hand, I once posted a question whether anyone had done a colopexy on a working, competing horse and how it turned out. I got a bunch of posts on how to manage a horse to prevent colic, and not one single answer to the question.
[QUOTE=Blume Farm;7429957]
As some others have said, I just discovered this thread having had an entire day of cabin fever due to storm Pax.
I agree with others that if one is purpose breeding for a jumper, dressage, eventer, reining horse, cow cutting horse, endurance, etc they should stick with the tried and true breed of horse that excels at that task. If one has an ASB mare that they want to breed for AA dressage they should look for another ASB stallion that has “dressage sport” qualities. If there is no ASB stallion that fits the bill, then look at other stallions in the same “group” of horse…like another poster said, Morgans, etc. This way you will have less guess work as to what the produce will be.
For example, I will use dogs as I think it is more clear. I know many bird hunters that have crossed a lab and a GSP to make a more keen, faster birding dog. The benefits they tell me are great. However, both these dogs are “bird” dogs, of similar type, similar size, similar body shape, etc. They did not cross their lab with a beagle…another great, and dare I say cute, hunting dog b/c their hunting skills are different, body type vastly different, size, etc. Although I could guarantee maybe the cutest puppies in the world from the cross, and maybe even a good random bird dog, the results would not be consistent. I think that point is what many folks here are trying to convey.
Regarding slaughter…the majority breed of horse that will end up in slaughter is going to be what is the majority of breed for that region. In Europe it is the WB, in the US it will be the stock horse. And yes, I am the opinion that, at least in Europe, the large scale “elite” breeders probably add to that population as much as the “backyard” breeder. Heck, one of Chester Weber’s horses was headed to slaughter in Europe. Certainly, that was not a poorly bred horse!
Over my years I have spent a lot of time with many folks that were the “elite” in their respective circle…be that horse folks here in the US, horse folks in Europe, veterinarians that were the best surgeons, lameness guy, Hollywood celebrities, scientists, etc. I could drop names whom I have lunched with as well. Thankfully most of them were quite jovial, diplomatic, and wanting to have true discussions/ conversations, and even if resolute in their opinions preferred to address it in a way that was educational, opened the listeners mind/ ears, provoked thought, etc. Egos exist in every field and some have a “style” of communication they like to call direct, honest, etc. Sadly, even when their opinions are of significant value it is almost always met with resistance, never invites conversation and rarely educates.[/QUOTE]
“Sadly, even when their opinions are of significant value it is almost always met with resistance, never invites conversation and rarely educates.”
That’s the problem of the listener. The person talking already knows what they know , so it’s not their responsibility to sugar coat or play to whatever sensitivities one may or may not have. If the delivery is too coarse…don’t read , listen or attend. It’s that simple.
Thank God I didn’t get my feelings hurt in my younger years when I asked a famous breeder about a Stallion I was booked to use and he promptly said…why would you use that stallion ? He makes nothing but [crap] ! You didn’t know this ? I felt about 2 inches tall seeing as a Stallion I thought I really liked was already known to produce crap…thankfully , I didn’t take it personally and dusted myself off and got into a very blunt conversation as to WHY said stallion made crap.
I guess it actually depends on how much knowledge you really want to glean. Sometimes that knowledge can come in many, many forms of delivery.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7430024]
“Sadly, even when their opinions are of significant value it is almost always met with resistance, never invites conversation and rarely educates.”
That’s the problem of the listener. The person talking already knows what they know , so it’s not their responsibility to sugar coat or play to whatever sensitivities one may or may not have. If the delivery is too coarse…don’t read , listen or attend. It’s that simple.
Thank God I didn’t get my feelings hurt in my younger years when I asked a famous breeder about a Stallion I was booked to use and he promptly said…why would you use that stallion ? He makes nothing but shit ! You didn’t know this ? I felt about 2 inches tall seeing as a Stallion I thought I really liked was already known to produce crap…thankfully , I didn’t take it personally and dusted myself off and got into a very blunt conversation as to WHY said stallion made crap.
I guess it actually depends on how much knowledge you really want to glean. Sometimes that knowledge can come in many, many forms of delivery.[/QUOTE]
Thank god the topic of this thread isn’t “How Bayhawk didn’t get his feelings hurt/How Bayhawk became part of an elite coterie”. The topic is “where to find the right saddlebred broodmare” and quite frankly, you stopped contributing pages ago. Instead of talking about yourself and your vast wealth of knowledge and opinions of significant value you could just, you know, go back to your thing and leave this poor thread alone. I wanted to stop replying because I felt like my contributions were contributing to the derailment but for crying out loud, this thread isn’t about you and your grandiose experiences.
And because I feel exponentially guilty for fueling the fire, here are some links I’ve dug up:
http://www.asha.net/Prize-Year-End-Awards
https://www.facebook.com/sporthorseinfo
http://www.equinejournal.com/features/471-saddlebred-sport-horses (contact Alan Balch, maybe?)
http://www.american-saddlebred.com/pages/protean-asbsport
http://modernsporthorses.com/
http://www.longgreylinefarm.com/ASBsport.htm (an interesting read)
http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/american-saddlebred.html (a well respected read)
ETA: I really like this mare: http://modernsporthorses.com/maggie.html That’s the second time I’ve seen an ASB today that was doing well in DR with the ASB stallion Modern Creation in the pedigree.
And here is one of the stallions mentioned in the editorial link above - Borealis. Whose full brothers were mentioned a few pages back as proven for sport horse talent: Supreme Sultan and Super Supreme.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7429776]
Nor did I say they were. I was just trying to relay that one needs a tougher skin when it comes to horses and breeding…especially when talking with the old breeders in Germany. They will flat out tell you a horse is shit no matter if it’s theirs or yours.[/QUOTE]
Well, you certainly came out guns blazing in your first post and really destroyed any chance of having a dialogue with anyone. I believe your knowledge and experience is there, you just need to work on your tact. I know you feel your delivery is like your German friends, but believe me, from experience, it’s not. But, I don’t know, maybe it’s not your intent to catch more flies with honey, maybe you’d rather just kick the hornet’s nest and move on.
[QUOTE=silvia;7429949]
The simple answer is that the Saddlebred as a light horse is a great alternative to Thoroughbred in the refining and lightening of stock - consider that they have a great deal of Thoroughbred blood in their breeding, yet were bred for riding and not for racing. Better constitutions, better feet, better legs, a better quality of movement, and better mental and physical agility. They are a softer horse to ride and work in the mind and body. Yet they still retain the light horse type with no heavy blood, and have the speed (well a fair bit of it anyhow!) and stamina of the Thoroughbred.
Not registerable? Absolutely, the main reason it’s not used. But we are talking about the qualities of the breed as above, not the paper, although of course Saddlebreds are also pedigreed animals.[/QUOTE]
That is a very perceptive, astute post. And it makes me want to sit back and sip on a Scotch while I ponder the topic. :winkgrin:
It would have been interesting indeed if the Europeans had used ASB blood instead of TB blood to reform their farm horses into riding horses. And equally interesting if,the ASB industry in the U.S. had focused on producing “sport horse types” in addition to the “Park” horse types that so dominated ASB breeding and competitions for so long. And yes, I know the ASB is used for much more than “Park” classes, but I think most of you will get my drift.
[QUOTE=DownYonder;7430103]
That is a very perceptive, astute post. And it makes me want to sit back and sip on a Scotch while I ponder the topic. :winkgrin:
It would have been interesting indeed if the Europeans had used ASB blood instead of TB blood to reform their farm horses into riding horses. And equally interesting if,the ASB industry in the U.S. had focused on producing “sport horse types” in addition to the “Park” horse types that so dominated ASB breeding and competitions for so long. And yes, I know the ASB is used for much more than “Park” classes, but I think most of you will get my drift.[/QUOTE]
Couldn’t agree more. Funny how history is man made (used Tb, AA, Arab to lighten the drafty type WB of years past) , but once made becomes written in stone as the only way to have done it! My question would be…were the ASB of years past (say in the 40s and 50s) of the same type that you see today? Ie; would one still consider the ASB a refining horse akin to the Tb still being used today? Even with the Tb, it is a completely different “beast” today than it was years ago. The best refining Tb’s used today have a much more old fashioned Tb look as the “modern” ones tend to be too light, poor top lines, poor limbs, etc. Not sure I am asking my question clearly…
I’ll join you in pondering but with a glass of wine:)
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