Flemmingh was a Holsteiner that got Dressage horses when outcrossed… and the son is an approved sire Krack C, anyone?
I refuse to comment on how much Thoroughbred is behind that horse… we all know that Thoroughbreds are not ranked in (Olympic discipline) Sport either…
[QUOTE=neversaynever;7429067]
So happy for you that you are in such an elite circle… No offense, but what does this has what to do with the OP’s question? Maybe you should take your personal conversation to a PM?[/QUOTE]
Petty , petty jealousy. Not that it’s any of your buisness but I will speak to anyone I choose ,albeit a personal tone ,on this forum ,in a private message or otherwise.
I am in an elite circle. I’m very happy about this as it has taken me the better part of 20 years to get there and MANY people in this country have benefited and continue to benefit from that circle.
No offense as you say…but take your advice back and don’t read my posts if they don’t pertain to what you perceive as pertinent.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7429408]
“Mare families used to produce for sport”… are there ‘mare families used to produce for other than Jumping, example for Dressage’ in Holsteiners?
I ask because it appears than horses of Holsteiner ancestry have been used outside of their breeding goal, specifically as Show Hunters or Dressage horses and been successful. Not only that, but they have been used as ‘outcross’ stock in other registries to produce the desired result such as a Dressage or Show Hunter prospect.
Is it a problem when someone says “KWPN performer XX is winning in Dressage” and the damsire is a Holsteiner?
Because Holsteiners are not ‘bred for Dressage’ does that make their grandget worthless in Sport or Sport breeding?
Are you saying that a damsire has no effect on the grandget? This seems odd to me.[/QUOTE]
Holsteiners are bred for dressage. Where do you people get this errant information from ?
Ever heard of Corlandus , Silvano , Chacamo , Vinetia ,Aljano , Dolany , DeChirico or maybe the most current 4 yr old champion Catoo ? How about Lorentin or Carabas ? Doesn’t make sense to continue this…
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7429448]
Petty , petty jealousy. Not that it’s any of your buisness but I will speak to anyone I choose ,albeit a personal tone ,on this forum ,in a private message or otherwise.
I am in an elite circle. I’m very happy about this as it has taken me the better part of 20 years to get there and MANY people in this country have benefited and continue to benefit from that circle.
No offense as you say…but take your advice back and don’t read my posts if they don’t pertain to what you perceive as pertinent.[/QUOTE]
I didn’t read jealousy. Just mild disbelief that an adult human being could behave that way, and continue to justify it.
From your posts, you’ve given a variety of people a very distinct opinion of you, that is nowhere near flattering. Some of these people are clients to your elite circle. You may argue that you don’t care what “these people” think of you, but when you act in such behavior on a public forum you are outing and ostracizing yourself publicly - particularly to the people who help to financially keep the “elite people’s” business afloat. The ammy-market you scorn so much is apparently the boon for your business. Where do the WC/UL-bred horses that don’t make it trickle down to, if nothing else?
It seems that apparently all you do in your elite coterie/dinner talks is bash other people, horses, breeds,and decisions that aren’t really your business. According to your post[s], frequent insults and bashing of horses/people in the horseworld is common-place during table talk. :eek:
I am sorry that you feel the need to brag about this, and even sorrier that the amazing horses in our industry are produced by people who think and talk this way. In this instance I hope it is you that is the exception, and not the norm.
If the OP wants to make an unorthodox breeding selection, it is her decision and quite frankly, none of any of our business. So long as she is capable of living (and providing for) with the end result. Considering the WBs that people on this forum idolize so much came from unorthodox breeding decisions, I don’t see the horror.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7429408]
“Mare families used to produce for sport”… are there ‘mare families used to produce for other than Jumping, example for Dressage’ in Holsteiners?
I ask because it appears than horses of Holsteiner ancestry have been used outside of their breeding goal, specifically as Show Hunters or Dressage horses and been successful. Not only that, but they have been used as ‘outcross’ stock in other registries to produce the desired result such as a Dressage or Show Hunter prospect.
Is it a problem when someone says “KWPN performer XX is winning in Dressage” and the damsire is a Holsteiner?
Because Holsteiners are not ‘bred for Dressage’ does that make their grandget worthless in Sport or Sport breeding?
Are you saying that a damsire has no effect on the grandget? This seems odd to me.[/QUOTE]
I am saying none of those things. Holsteiner breeders put their reliance primarily in the perpetuation of their mare families and in the knowledge of how they breed. Of course all the blood that goes into making up an individual horse contributes to the success or lack thereof of that horse. The philosophy of breeding in Holstein revolves around the use of the stems. Other breeding systems are viable as well, obviously, but this is the one I ascribe to.
I do not have a problem with a horse that it registered Dutch that has Holsteiner blood being called Dutch. My best mare is Zangersheide and by an Olderburg that was not approved Holsteiner and she is from a Holsteiner stem. I do not care what she is called, but she was successful at 1.50 jumping and has great conformation and temperament so I have chosen to perpetuate her bloodline. Since she comes from a Holsteiner stem, I am able to look closely at how other members of this line breed and gain a little information about what works for her bloodline. Obviously, I still have to breed the mare in front of me, so I have to keep in mind all of the other blood that she brings to the table as well. It is just another piece of the breeding puzzle that we can use to produce the offspring that we want. The use of this approach (ie paying close attention to what the mareline produces) over many many years in the Holstein studbook has shown its utility, but it is just another tool.
I focus on jumping and breeding jumpers, myself, so I cannot speak about marelines that have been used to purpose breed for another discipline. I think that it is great that other registries use Holstein blood in order to purpose breed for certain disciplines. I do not believe that any generalization can be made about what is worthless or not in breeding. I just think that it is hard to breed in general, it becomes even harder when you cross horses with different types and purposes. It certainly can be done, with much success as well, but one should be even more vigilant when doing so. It becomes much easier when one knows what the bloodlines of each horse has produced in the past.
That being said, and since I do not know anything about ASBs, I went and looked up Winsdown Farm’s program. I think that it is great that they also are tracing their broodmares by female families. Good for them! This is the way to establish a history in each of the families to help perpetuate their breed in the future, to give those breeding ASBs a tool for future production. I have to say this thread has been enlightening to me, as I now have a new found awareness of ASBs in general.
Not that I am defending Bayhawk but I too had a Grey Poupon moment when I thought of someone breeding an ASB to a WB. You have to remember that as a WB breeder we adhere to very strick guidelines and inspections of our horse stock. To then say “OH I WANT A SANE DRESSAGE HORSE BECAUSE WBS ARE HOT” so I am going to breed a ASB to get there doesn’t make much sense. If you really want a dressage horse then I can’t imagine why you would pick anything other than a WB. THEY ARE THE BEST IN THE WORLD…PERIOD.
I can’t think of anything that a ASB would bring to the table except some flaws because they are conformationally very different than WBs. The high set neck and straight backs are really not conducive to higher levels or even correct lower levels. That having been said each individual is totally different comprised of different pieces and could do a fine job I am sure. But why would you even take the risk when the whole PURPOSE of the European breeding models is to remove the doubt of some genetic flaw popping errantly up? Not to mention the resultant horse would not be registerable and there is some bias in the dressage culture to non-mainstream breeds. That is just looking at the reality.
[QUOTE=europa;7429494]
Not that I am defending Bayhawk but I too had a Grey Poupon moment when I thought of someone breeding an ASB to a WB. You have to remember that as a WB breeder we adhere to very strick guidelines and inspections of our horse stock. To then say “OH I WANT A SANE DRESSAGE HORSE BECAUSE WBS ARE HOT” so I am going to breed a ASB to get there doesn’t make much sense. If you really want a dressage horse then I can’t imagine why you would pick anything other than a WB. THEY ARE THE BEST IN THE WORLD…PERIOD.
I can’t think of anything that a ASB would bring to the table except some flaws because they are conformationally very different than WBs. The high set neck and straight backs are really not conducive to higher levels or even correct lower levels. That having been said each individual is totally different comprised of different pieces and could do a fine job I am sure. But why would you even take the risk when the whole PURPOSE of the European breeding models is to remove the doubt of some genetic flaw popping errantly up? Not to mention the resultant horse would not be registerable and there is some bias in the dressage culture to non-mainstream breeds. That is just looking at the reality.[/QUOTE]
I think both you and BH would benefit from spending some time with ASBs. Just like every other breed, there are extremes of the breed and then there are what the actual breed is. Not all ASBs are “swan neck, weaked loined, straight backed” monsters.
The merits of the ASB has already been mentioned ad nauseum. There are plenty of things that the right ASB could bring to the table for a WB cross.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7429448]
Petty , petty jealousy. Not that it’s any of your buisness but I will speak to anyone I choose ,albeit a personal tone ,on this forum ,in a private message or otherwise.
I am in an elite circle. I’m very happy about this as it has taken me the better part of 20 years to get there and MANY people in this country have benefited and continue to benefit from that circle.
No offense as you say…but take your advice back and don’t read my posts if they don’t pertain to what you perceive as pertinent.[/QUOTE]
This is the funniest thing I have ever read on this board.
And so I need to spend time with ASBs because why? I am a jumper/
dressage person and my horses meet all my needs.
I think it is fine for those who like the breed. If they are so fabulous then why try to change them with a HOT old WB? Again I just don’t understand.
I have nothing against ASBs but they are not my breed of choice for what I do.
[QUOTE=Stoney447;7429287]
Geez GAP get off my back. I mentioned my horse to show that I do not have a breed elitism problem. Also, you obviously do not know how to read for comprehension if you got from my statements that I think it is closed-minded to cross a saddlebred with a warmblood. I am only saying that it is closed-minded to TELL anyone else how to do ANYTHING.
I do not have anything against saddlebreds and I like warmbloods. I could care less if you like warmbloods or not. What I do care about is people coming on here championing any breed to the detriment of another (whether it is warmbloods or not) by saying that one breed can improve another breed IN GENERAL.
Furthermore, I am not Bayhawk and I do not speak for him whatsoever. So laugh it up that I disagree with him on some points, I do not know why that is so funny. I feel like you are paying special attention to argue with me right now and to misunderstand what I am trying to say on purpose because you dislike him so much and I stated that I appreciate his expertise…[/QUOTE]
I’ll post whatever I want within forum rules. Shrug. If you’re getting “special attention” from me it’s because you are posting ridiculous things. I understand you perfectly and my reading comprehension is great; YOU are just not making much sense. Nor do you seem to get that you are being unintentionally funny.
No one is talking about improving warmbloods IN GENERAL, although they could use it.
If you think it’s close-minded to TELL anyone how to do ANYTHING then why are you defending bayhawk anyway? 
See, that doesn’t make any sense.
I’m sure you’ll threaten to put me on ignore next. Go ahead if you want to, I don’t care.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7429545]
I’ll post whatever I want within forum rules. If you’re getting “special attention” from me it’s because you are posting ridiculous things. I understand you perfectly and my reading comprehension is great; YOU are just not making much sense.
No one is talking about improving warmbloods IN GENERAL, although they could use it.
If you think it’s close-minded to TELL anyone how to do ANYTHING then why are you defending bayhawk anyway? See, that doesn’t make any sense.
I’m sure you’ll threaten to put me on ignore next. Go ahead if you want to, I don’t care.[/QUOTE]
Lol! My general experiences with you have been that you can be just as nasty as he can be.
[QUOTE=europa;7429494]
Not that I am defending Bayhawk but I too had a Grey Poupon moment when I thought of someone breeding an ASB to a WB. You have to remember that as a WB breeder we adhere to very strick guidelines and inspections of our horse stock. To then say “OH I WANT A SANE DRESSAGE HORSE BECAUSE WBS ARE HOT” so I am going to breed a ASB to get there doesn’t make much sense. If you really want a dressage horse then I can’t imagine why you would pick anything other than a WB. THEY ARE THE BEST IN THE WORLD…PERIOD.
I can’t think of anything that a ASB would bring to the table except some flaws because they are conformationally very different than WBs. The high set neck and straight backs are really not conducive to higher levels or even correct lower levels. That having been said each individual is totally different comprised of different pieces and could do a fine job I am sure. But why would you even take the risk when the whole PURPOSE of the European breeding models is to remove the doubt of some genetic flaw popping errantly up? Not to mention the resultant horse would not be registerable and there is some bias in the dressage culture to non-mainstream breeds. That is just looking at the reality.[/QUOTE]
Meh, you need to see some really good saddlebreds if that’s what you think of them.
Stoney, you seem to have a problem with hearing an honest opinion. 
Hypocritical much? And name calling too?
I remember our last back and forth where you couldn’t seem to distinguish between phenotype and genotype. I wasn’t nasty to you at all but I will say now that that exchange was tiresome.
[QUOTE=europa;7429537]
And so I need to spend time with ASBs because why? I am a jumper/
dressage person and my horses meet all my needs.
I think it is fine for those who like the breed. If they are so fabulous then why try to change them with a HOT old WB? Again I just don’t understand.
I have nothing against ASBs but they are not my breed of choice for what I do.[/QUOTE]
And I understand that. But you are openly admitting you have no experience with the breed. If that is how you feel about all ASBs, it’s obvious you have little to no experience with the good ones. Perhaps something to think about before you make a broad statement like “there is nothing an ASB can contribute to a WB but flaws”.
This website has some nice ASB sporthorses, perhaps you spend some time looking at them.
In a perfect world, I imagine the OP is looking for improvement for both horses through the foal - the tractability and natural aptitude for training/soundness/uphill movement of the ASB and the athleticism, movement, refinement, and uphill balance of the WB.
Really, it’s not a new idea. People have been putting together “ridiculous” crosses for years. Instead of shutting down because you have a preconceived bias/pigeon-hole idea of the breed standard and norms, you could possibly educate yourself to both sides and understand this is really nowhere near as shocking as the WB die-hards are making it.
No one is arguing that ASBs are the shoe-in to “fix” the WBs breed.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7429402]
Bayhawk,
Please state the ranking organization you are referring to?
thank you[/QUOTE]
Bayhawk,
Thanks for replying, albeit obtusely, to my question directed at Stoney. I was under the impression that jumping was a requirement of stallion approvals in the Holsteiner breed, and that the primary breeding goal focus was on jumping.
http://horsesinternational.com/articles/holsteiner-verband-number-one-in-the-world/
Would you care to answer my question to you by stating which ranking organization you are referring to?
Thanks
I just don’t understand the IMPROVEMENT you keep speaking of. You must think that none of us breed to improve our horses. We are constantly striving to improve the breed base.
Just because ASBs are not my cup of tea doesn’t mean they are horrible. They just don’t fit in my program. The OP can breed whatever she wants but remember it started with FIXING WBs.
[QUOTE=Stoney447;7429478]
That being said, and since I do not know anything about ASBs, I went and looked up Winsdown Farm’s program. I think that it is great that they also are tracing their broodmares by female families. Good for them! This is the way to establish a history in each of the families to help perpetuate their breed in the future, to give those breeding ASBs a tool for future production. I have to say this thread has been enlightening to me, as I now have a new found awareness of ASBs in general.[/QUOTE]
And the thing is, Stoney, that people like Bayhawk automatically assume that because we might want to cross a Saddlebred with a Warmblood then we are obviously stupid, uneducated backyard breeders who are directly contributing to the slaugher pipeline.
Do you guys have ANY idea how incredibly insulting that is?
I did a PILE of research before buying my mare in 2009. I knew EXACTLY what lines/sires I wanted in my program and which lines I preferred to avoid. Once I had narrowed it down to 1-2 possible mares, I went online and contacted breeders who were familiar with my mare’s sire and damline and asked a bazillion questions. I obtained pictures/video of her sire and siblings/half-siblings. I asked for not one, not two but THREE video clips showing the mares being led to and from the camera, at all 3 gaits, being handled, etc.
I know my mare’s background very well, I love that she is heavily Stonewall-bred on top and has CH Yorktown on the bottom. I KNOW what these sires bring to the table, and so far I was not only bang on about my mare’s suitability but I can see the results I wanted in her first filly, now coming 3. She is everything I wanted, and has way more talent & quality than her ammie owner will ever need.
I research stallion matches for my ASB mares very carefully and consider their genotype AND their phenotype when I breed them.
And I most certainly do NOT produce un-registerable foals, thankyouverymuch. All my crosses are fully registered Canadian Warmbloods or Canadian Sport Horses. (now will come the inevitable snooty comments about those two “unworthy” registries… waaaait for iiitt…)
In any case, the OP never, EVER asked for advice/comments about whether she should breed an ASB to a WB - she asked where to find a suitable sport-type ASB broodmare.
That would be like telling someone who comes on here asking about (X) Oldenburg stallion and his get “well you shouldn’t be breeding anyway because the economy sucks and horses are being slaughtered by the thousands every year”.
—> Irrelevant. Unnecessary. Unsollicited. Inflammatory.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7428369]
Stoney ! Long time no hear. Hope all is well !
Yes , I am blunt…it is my style . I crack up when folks here think that somethings rude , too blunt , arrogant or whatever. They wouldn’t make it 5 minutes at the dinner table with some of the best breeders in the world in Germany. What they call rude and blunt…I call education.
As long as folks keep living in the land of the offended…they will always be more concerned about how something was said, instead of what was actually said.[/QUOTE]
My dinner experiences with German judges, trainers, breeders and veterinarians were filled to the brim with education. However, I would not consider any of the conversations to be rude or snide no matter how strong the opinions.
[QUOTE=fizzyfuzzybuzzy;7421521]
I am starting to search for a nice saddlebred broodmare. I’m looking for an ASB type, not the super swan neck, bulging eye, big lick type. I know they can be found, I just have no idea where to look! I’m in the SE, so would prefer something within a day’s drive.
Any thoughts?[/QUOTE]
I just want to apologize to the OP for what this thread has become. I know it was wrong of me to stand on a soapbox to try to defend someone that I respect without agreeing wholeheartedly with what was said. This thread was not the place to do any of this. I know that some people just troll these forums looking for a fight, any fight and I do not want to be viewed as one of those people.
I am truly sorry as none of this could have made you feel very good. I apologize if I have not been clear in expressing my views as I have dysgraphia from a car accident a few years back (amongst other issues). It does not make me feel good either when people attack me for not being completely coherent or for writing in a muddled way. I see no reason to further defend myself. I only wish to apologize for what I have said if it has upset you in any way.
I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread.
I love Saddlebred crosses. No doubt in my browsing of the interwebs I have seen mostly the good eggs of the outcrossing, but from what I have seen it can be exceptionally lovely. Most have the elegant, high-set neck and engaging expression and refinement of the ASB with more substance.
I’m surprise no one has thrown out any examples of Georgian Grandes as examples of the traits ASBs can bring to a heavier horse. There are some horses by committee in the draft x ASB but a refined warmblood + a heavy ASB are no so different that if it were a matter of a jigsaw puzzle, any combination would be acceptable.
I will never be able to afford a top calibre elite warmblood. The warmbloods that I can afford are deficient in either conformation, mental capacity or soundness. I could buy a lovely ASB cross that would fufill all of my needs and also have the beauty, physical capabilities and mental attributes of a papered warmblood 10x the cost.
I don’t get this holier than thou attitude that anything other than a fully registerable, popular breeding is automatically contributing to the slaugher houses. I’ve been to those auctions. To date I’ve pulled 5 horses out of New Holland, 2 of which which were definitely going on the meat truck and 2 more from a different feedlot. Yes there were some lovely, well trained horses at NH. And you know what? They didn’t sell to the kill buyer. A lovely grey QH mare sold for over 3k. Those that were bought for slaughter prices were a lot of stock breeds with mediocre or poor conformation, STBs and TBs with lameness or conformation issues, ASBs run into the ground or also with conformation issues and some geriatrics. Sure you hear about the amazing horses who slip through the cracks and end up on the meat trucks, but that’s not what 99% of the ones churning through that auction every Monday are.
A well-conformed, sound, sane, trained horse in good condition does not sell for $250 at that auction.
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