[QUOTE=endoftheday;7428532]
I find a lack of respect for WBs in this thread.[/QUOTE]
Ah, now that is not my intent.
I am referring to to the opinion that has come out, that a discussion of a non-ranked, non-wb horse does not belong in this forum.
And that is what offended me.
[QUOTE=endoftheday;7428247]
Why do people come on this forum and attempt to justify why they need to “fix” faults in WBs with non-WB breeds? WBs are exceptional for their purposes and it has taken years of closed or select breeding to get them this way. If you don’t like WBs for what they have been bred to be - stick with another breed. I have yet to see a WB breeder on a thread for another breed telling them they need a WB to correct them for their discipline. If ASBs where so good at sporthorse disciplines you would see a heavy infiltration already. Its not like the ASB is a newly discovered breed… If they are so predominant in WB pedigrees - why is it such a secret? What are the statistics? I like ASBs, but stating that they are secretly enhancing WB pedigrees is absurd. If they were such a benefit don’t you think WB breeders would have been jumping on it for years? And publicly?[/QUOTE]
Who is doing what you are claiming?
No one.
Instead there’s a [someone] complaining because someone asked about crossing a saddlebred with a warmblood.
[QUOTE=endoftheday;7428532]
it is an insult to the WB breeders to insinuate that WBs need correcting with non WB breeds. Just as an ASB breeder does not want to be told that her ASB needed correcting by a non ASB breed? I find a lack of respect for WBs in this thread.[/QUOTE]
See I didn’t get that but that may be because I ride a Saddlebred. I don’t think any one was saying they wanted to “correct” the WB. I would say more “tweak” the WB towards traits they value in the ASB. Or perhaps because the OP is looking for ASB breeding stock, they want to tweak the ASB with traits they value in the WB.
Maybe both sides are reading a bit egocentrically.
The ASB loyalists are just sick and tired of hearing you all say “ASBs aren’t welcome in our world” or “there are only one or two anomalies and it’s a fluke” when dammit there are hundreds out there right under your noses and there have been for generations but they are being called “grade” or “warmblood” or half-somethingorother precisely because of this crappy prejudice.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7428539]
This comment struck me as funny, since Europeans have used a saddlebred to create some excellent jumpers.
If the horse has the desirable attributes, that’s what’s important. I don’t care if the horse is “unusual” for its breed. Heck, the average warmblood can’t jump scopey 1.4m courses or even piaffe well.[/QUOTE]
If my effort at being diplomatic was funny then so be it. All I was trying to say is that both sides are being closed-minded. I think it is closed-minded to tell someone that they shouldn’t breed a certain way if they can support their reasoning, but I also think it is closed-minded that we should automatically accept that crossing in a certain breed to our warmblood populations, not specific horse mind you but breed in general, will improve the mind, the movement ect. I also think it is closed-minded to expect everyone to be politically correct in their opinions.
My commentary on European breeding was referring to the fact that most registries know their blood well. I do not know anything about ASBs, and I do not know anyone who can tell me about the mare families used to produce for sport with ASBs… but I do know about my mares’ families and the blood that they cross well with and I will stick with what has been proven in my registry of choice. I like Holsteiners. It is my right. It is Op’s right (and others) to not like them and to like ASBs instead. That is all I am saying.
In fact…I am currently eventing a grey and white Quarter Horse/Paint/Percheron Cross. I love him and he serves my personal riding needs well. If he were a mare I would never breed him because I do not think he would add anything special to the gene pool that isn’t already being produced. I can buy another one just like him out of my neighbor’s back yard, off of craigslist or from any number of farms breeding horses en mass like him.
I think people need to take it easy and not get so easily offended. It really is a bit hard to understand the logic taking place here though because on one hand the pro Saddlebred people are claiming that Saddlebreds are super sport horses and then on the other hand they are claiming that they are only trying to use them because they want to make a pretty, low level horse.
But at the end of the day, ANY horse of ANY breed with a willing temperament can make a low level anything horse. There are pretty horses of every breed. Those are the two criteria being mentioned. Why do you need to purpose breed such an animal?? I have gone to many auctions and bought horses off the meat truck that possessed these traits. I never paid over $300.00. QH’s fit this bill perfectly. Most have exceptional temperaments, they are easy to sit and relatively athletic and they make really good low level dressage horses for ammy riders. They also come in a variety of beautiful colors. Thousands upon thousands of them go for slaughter every year and if you don’t believe it you need to pull your head out of the sand. Then there are all the TB’s out there that get shipped.
I guess I just feel it is important that breeders are informed and aware of the market out there. Maybe this offends some of you but what is really offensive is seeing thousands of good horses that suit the above mentioned criteria being slaughtered due to uninformed/careless breeding decisions. Uninformed is believing there are a shortage of pretty horses with low level potential.
Well said! I think these are excellent, fair points, Stoney.
But at the end of the day, ANY horse of ANY breed with a willing temperament can make a low level anything horse. There are pretty horses of every breed. Those are the two criteria being mentioned. Why do you need to purpose breed such an animal?? I have gone to many auctions and bought horses off the meat truck that possessed these traits. I never paid over $300.00. QH’s fit this bill perfectly. Most have exceptional temperaments, they are easy to sit and relatively athletic and they make really good low level dressage horses for ammy riders. They also come in a variety of beautiful colors. Thousands upon thousands of them go for slaughter every year and if you don’t believe it you need to pull your head out of the sand.
I agree and disagree with this premise.
On the one hand, I don’t think people should intentionally breed for low level horses. On the other hand, just because someone only has lower level ambitions it doesn’t mean their choices should be limited to cheap Quarter Horses. QH’s and Saddlebreds couldn’t be more different, I don’t think a Quarter Horse would fit the OP’s criteria at all. A QH is pretty much on the complete opposite end of the sport suitability spectrum from a Saddlebred/Warmblood.
I guess I just feel it is important that breeders are informed and aware of the market out there. Maybe this offends some of you but what is really offensive is seeing thousands of good horses that suit the above mentioned criteria being slaughtered due to uninformed/careless breeding decisions. Uninformed is believing there are a shortage of pretty horses with low level potential.
Again I agree and disagree. I agree irresponsible breeding is a giant problem. But the majority of horses going to slaughter are Paints and Quarter Horses, Paint/x’s and Quarter Horse/x’s, and grade horses “believed to be” one of those (Paint/QH) - and these are not the type of horses most English/sport riders want to have. Breeders absolutely should think twice and breed more responsibly. But at the same time it’s not really fair to tell buyers that if their budget or goals are limited they’re going to have to settle for a QH.
Maybe before piling onto someone for wanting to breed a Saddlebred/Warmblood, people should focus some of their angst and righteousness at the people breeding tens of thousands of low end Quarter Horses, Paints, and QH/x or Paint/x crosses first, since it’s safe to say there are way more of those flooding the auctions than Saddlebred/Warmblood crosses.
[QUOTE=silvia;7428361]
…
Damline is from Winsdown Farms in the USA which has a great reputation for producing (and they support the production of) sport horse Saddlebreds.
…[/QUOTE]
OP:
^^^This, regarding Winsdown! In addition to supporting sport horse endeavors with her horses and breeding specifically for horses who are versatile and ammy-friendly, Louise also has a fantastic reputation for honesty and genuinely wants to put the right horse with the right person. If you haven’t already, you should definitely contact her. She may have a broodie that fits what you want, or may know someone who does. Her farm’s website is geared toward the Saddleseat crowd since that’s her primary market, but don’t be fooled. She has a lot of horses that will fit in a sport horse home!
I was going to stay completely focused on the purpose of the OP, but I did want to hit on one very generalized idea. I’ll stay away from the breeding aspect because I have no dog in that fight, but it honestly concerns me just how much stock it seems equestrians put on pidgeon-holing horses based on breed instead of evaluating the individual in front of them. I’ve only been in horses for a little over 8 years (got my first one as an adult), but even my limited experience has given me tons of examples of breed prejudice. And it’s just a shame. Here are just the two most recent ones:
Example 1: I’ve never tried to sell a horse before, but I’ve been having medical issues and put my TB mare on the market prior to my surgery in an effort to save some board money while I was down and out. Twice I had buyers who were ready to put her on the trailer, and twice they went back to their trainer (two different trainers, mind you) who flat-out said “NO” once the word “Thoroughbred” escaped the mouths of the buyers. The trainers never even laid eyes on my mare, but instead wrote her off based on breed alone. Perhaps if I had marketed her as an un-papered Appendix or some such thing, she would’ve been sold twice over, but I’m far too honest for that, so she is still sitting at my farm.
Example 2: Before I got sick I was looking to get my little Saddlebred filly ready to debut in some flat classes (she is from the same farm mentioned above and is quite the sporty little thing). I have a good friend who used to compete successfully in A-level Hunters and in Dressage. She gave the filly a couple of rides and told me she’s excited to see her show – she felt she’d do really well. But she insisted I tell them she was an Appendix so she would place better.
I was shocked at that, and still am. It is a shame that so many in the horse world will write off an animal based on breed instead of evaluating the horse in front of them.
And I believe examples such as the above are exactly why some ASB-lovers defend the breed so fervently. Saddlebreds are one of those breeds that tend to get pidgeon-holed to the extreme, and we who own and love them disagree with the stereo-types.
climbs down from soapbox
[QUOTE=Stoney447;7428544]
All is well here! Looking forward to this year’s breeding season! Thinking about hitting the Z-tour this year to watch the young horses go in April, which should be fun.
Anyway, they may not like how you say it, but I am grateful that you do share some tidbits of your dinner table talk that I otherwise would never be privy to.[/QUOTE]
Cool. You will enjoy Z for sure.
Yes , the dinner table talk is very interesting sometimes. It is amazing how they truely do love their animals but are ruthless cullers at the same time.
Last May , we had my better half’s 50th Birthday at Haselau Landhaus (where Contender lived). Guests of our table were the famous breeders of 776 , 474a and 242. 776 is usually the #1 ranked motherline in the world. 474a just had 2 in the last Olympics and 242 currently has the #2 ranked living Holsteiner mare for producing international sporthorses. Needless to say…conversation was lively !
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7428994]
Cool. You will enjoy Z for sure.
Yes , the dinner table talk is very interesting sometimes. It is amazing how they truely do love their animals but are ruthless cullers at the same time.
Last May , we had my better half’s 50th Birthday at Haselau Landhaus (where Contender lived). Guests of our table were the famous breeders of 776 , 474a and 242. 776 is usually the #1 ranked motherline in the world. 474a just had 2 in the last Olympics and 242 currently has the #2 ranked living Holsteiner mare for producing international sporthorses. Needless to say…conversation was lively ![/QUOTE]
So happy for you that you are in such an elite circle… No offense, but what does this have to do with the OP’s question? Maybe you should take your personal conversation to a PM?
while its sounds great to say there’s a lot of pretty amature friendly, low level capable horses at auctions that need homes, there are also a lot of crazy, crippled, wild, sick horses at auctions too - it is a crapshoot even if you are experienced. I would rather see an ammy buy a pretty, low level horse from a local reputable breeder so that they know its history, can try it and can vet it, then bring home a horse and find out the hard way that it is crazy, sick and/or crippled.
[QUOTE=Stoney447;7428570]
If my effort at being diplomatic was funny then so be it. All I was trying to say is that both sides are being closed-minded. I think it is closed-minded to tell someone that they shouldn’t breed a certain way if they can support their reasoning, but I also think it is closed-minded that we should automatically accept that crossing in a certain breed to our warmblood populations, not specific horse mind you but breed in general, will improve the mind, the movement ect. I also think it is closed-minded to expect everyone to be politically correct in their opinions.
My commentary on European breeding was referring to the fact that most registries know their blood well. I do not know anything about ASBs, and I do not know anyone who can tell me about the mare families used to produce for sport with ASBs… but I do know about my mares’ families and the blood that they cross well with and I will stick with what has been proven in my registry of choice. I like Holsteiners. It is my right. It is Op’s right (and others) to not like them and to like ASBs instead. That is all I am saying.
In fact…I am currently eventing a grey and white Quarter Horse/Paint/Percheron Cross. I love him and he serves my personal riding needs well. If he were a mare I would never breed him because I do not think he would add anything special to the gene pool that isn’t already being produced. I can buy another one just like him out of my neighbor’s back yard, off of craigslist or from any number of farms breeding horses en mass like him.[/QUOTE]
(In bold) You mean the way bayhawk always does? That’s funny that you should say that too.
There’s nothing close-minded about wanting to cross a warmblood with something else. Warmbloods in general are far from perfect. Before you label me a warmblood hater I have a warmblood/TB cross that I bred myself. Nobody’s asking you to use a saddlebred mare so why do you care? And how does a QH/Paint/Percheron cross compare to a Saddlebred? Oh wait, it doesn’t.
Also wanted to disabuse the notion floating around in this thread that there are tons of pretty sound ammy perfect horses out there. There are not. Any horse can become unsound due to accident but in this country often the first thing someone wants to do with a basically unsound mare with a crappy temperament is to breed her. If the OP does her research and finds a really nice mare with the traits she wants, well, she will probably end up with a really nice foal. To be fair it can be argued that almost no one should be breeding horses in the current economy.
Maybe I missed it but did she ever say what the combo was going to afford her? Why a ASB mare? Just curious.
I am of the camp that you have just eliminated alot of potential clients with this cross. It is not registerable and the crosses you have shown that were somewhat successful appear more WB then ASB. I guess it just begs the question why would you want to cross the two?
See post 19.
[QUOTE=ClassyRide;7428889]
I was going to stay completely focused on the purpose of the OP, but I did want to hit on one very generalized idea. I’ll stay away from the breeding aspect because I have no dog in that fight, but it honestly concerns me just how much stock it seems equestrians put on pidgeon-holing horses based on breed instead of evaluating the individual in front of them. [/QUOTE]
I was going to withdraw from this conversation because some folks are SO defensive and melodramatic about the topic, but what the heck, I am stuck inside and bored, so will offer the following.
Most good breeders I know don’t really pigeonhole horses based on breed, but on PEDIGREE (bloodlines), because its the PEDIGREE that tells them what the horse is likely to throw. A horse that is strongly jumping bred, from the very top show jumping bloodlines in the world, is far more likely to possess the genetic material necessary for success in the world of show jumping, than a horse from a breeding population that has traditionally been bred for other disciplines.
Just as a breeder aiming for a top reining horse won’t use breeding stock from WB, or TWH, or draft breeds (for example), a breeder aiming for a top jumping horse isn’t going to be inclined to use breeding stock from QH, ASB, draft, TWH, etc. bloodlines (again, chosen as examples).
In the OP’s case, she has made it clear she is not intent on producing a world-beater, but she, just like all breeders, should still be mindful of the genetic material brought to the table by both parents.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7429186]
(In bold) You mean the way bayhawk always does? That’s funny that you should say that too.
There’s nothing close-minded about wanting to cross a warmblood with something else. Warmbloods in general are far from perfect. Before you label me a warmblood hater I have a warmblood/TB cross that I bred myself. Nobody’s asking you to use a saddlebred mare so why do you care? And how does a QH/Paint/Percheron cross compare to a Saddlebred? Oh wait, it doesn’t.
Also wanted to disabuse the notion floating around in this thread that there are tons of pretty sound ammy perfect horses out there. There are not. Any horse can become unsound due to accident but in this country often the first thing someone wants to do with a basically unsound mare with a crappy temperament is to breed her. If the OP does her research and finds a really nice mare with the traits she wants, well, she will probably end up with a really nice foal. To be fair it can be argued that almost no one should be breeding horses in the current economy.[/QUOTE]
Geez GAP get off my back. I mentioned my horse to show that I do not have a breed elitism problem. Also, you obviously do not know how to read for comprehension if you got from my statements that I think it is closed-minded to cross a saddlebred with a warmblood. I am only saying that it is closed-minded to TELL anyone else how to do ANYTHING.
I do not have anything against saddlebreds and I like warmbloods. I could care less if you like warmbloods or not. What I do care about is people coming on here championing any breed to the detriment of another (whether it is warmbloods or not) by saying that one breed can improve another breed IN GENERAL.
Furthermore, I am not Bayhawk and I do not speak for him whatsoever. So laugh it up that I disagree with him on some points, I do not know why that is so funny. I feel like you are paying special attention to argue with me right now and to misunderstand what I am trying to say on purpose because you dislike him so much and I stated that I appreciate his expertise…
[QUOTE=DownYonder;7429254]
…
Most good breeders I know don’t really pigeonhole horses based on breed, but on PEDIGREE (bloodlines), because its the PEDIGREE that tells them what the horse is likely to throw. A horse that is strongly jumping bred, from the very top show jumping bloodlines in the world, is far more likely to possess the genetic material necessary for success in the world of show jumping, than a horse from a breeding population that has traditionally been bred for other disciplines.
…[/QUOTE]
From a breeding perspective, this makes complete and total sense to me. DownYonder, thank you so much for your thoughtful response. It makes sense to take a stud whose ancestors/relatives (and himself) did well in the desired discipline + a mare whose family (and herself) also does well in the desired discipline.
It sounds to me like the OP fancies ASBs and WBs for different qualities and plans to take a WB who does well in Dressage + an ASB who does well in Dressage to hopefully get a baby who will also do well in Dressage. From what I understand, breeding is never an exact science, but if the WB comes from Dressage lines, and she can find an ASB who comes from the same family lines as the shining examples posted here, that would certainly minimize the risk of getting a foal that won’t perform well in Dressage, no? So, it’s about finding the right mare, which is why the OP posted here - to get leads on where she may find her.
My post above went a little off track, being as this is a Breeding forum. As I was reading the thread, I just kept thinking of the recent examples I have of people completely writing off an animal simply because of their breed. And admittedly, that’s a bit of sore subject for me because of the examples I posted. …I am also stuck inside and bored today. :o
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7428476]
Go look at the rankings…not one ranked in jumping , dressage , or eventing.[/QUOTE]
Bayhawk,
Please state the ranking organization you are referring to?
thank you
[QUOTE=Stoney447;7428570]
If my effort at being diplomatic was funny then so be it. All I was trying to say is that both sides are being closed-minded. I think it is closed-minded to tell someone that they shouldn’t breed a certain way if they can support their reasoning, but I also think it is closed-minded that we should automatically accept that crossing in a certain breed to our warmblood populations, not specific horse mind you but breed in general, will improve the mind, the movement ect. I also think it is closed-minded to expect everyone to be politically correct in their opinions.
My commentary on European breeding was referring to the fact that most registries know their blood well. I do not know anything about ASBs, and I do not know anyone who can tell me about the mare families used to produce for sport with ASBs… but I do know about my mares’ families and the blood that they cross well with and I will stick with what has been proven in my registry of choice. I like Holsteiners. It is my right. It is Op’s right (and others) to not like them and to like ASBs instead. That is all I am saying.
In fact…I am currently eventing a grey and white Quarter Horse/Paint/Percheron Cross. I love him and he serves my personal riding needs well. If he were a mare I would never breed him because I do not think he would add anything special to the gene pool that isn’t already being produced. I can buy another one just like him out of my neighbor’s back yard, off of craigslist or from any number of farms breeding horses en mass like him.[/QUOTE]
“Mare families used to produce for sport”… are there ‘mare families used to produce for other than Jumping, example for Dressage’ in Holsteiners?
I ask because it appears than horses of Holsteiner ancestry have been used outside of their breeding goal, specifically as Show Hunters or Dressage horses and been successful. Not only that, but they have been used as ‘outcross’ stock in other registries to produce the desired result such as a Dressage or Show Hunter prospect.
Is it a problem when someone says “KWPN performer XX is winning in Dressage” and the damsire is a Holsteiner?
Because Holsteiners are not ‘bred for Dressage’ does that make their grandget worthless in Sport or Sport breeding?
Are you saying that a damsire has no effect on the grandget? This seems odd to me.
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