Where to find a saddlebred broodmare

[D_BaldStockings]

At least the Hanoverian Society recognizes that most oof the production goes to Amateur Sport; which seems to be disparaged in the COTH breeding forum:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.hannoveraner.com/hannoveraner-verband/hannoveraner-verband/initiativen/hannoveraner-erleben/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhannoveraner%2Berleben%26biw%3D1123%26bih%3D705

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.hannoveraner.com/hannoveraner-verband/hannoveraner-verband/initiativen/hannoveraner-erleben/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhannoveraner%2Berleben%26biw%3D1123%26bih%3D705

Other than some Trakheners, there is no such thing as a ‘full WB’, they are a collection of carefully selected horses from several foundation stocks crossed with the lightest horses commonly available in Europe: Thoroughbreds, Shagya arabians, and crosses. The background is diverse and yes, many, many are not picked up by the Top Sport riders and end up in Leisure rider homes.

I won’t get into the possible shortcomings of the various governing bodies’ selection processes, that is well covered on this board. Suffice to say that if you exclude a population or individual from your competition or registry, that does not mean the value isn’t there.
There have been several well known sires moved to ‘lesser’ registries because their ‘home registry’ would not approve them.

Some traditions go back farther than others as to breeding goals in Europe vs. the US.

As a percentage of total registered stock produced, one Saddlebred like Harry Callahan is a higher statistic than the bred-for registries can claim.

The cross-bred 25% Saddlebreds success was not from a bred-for jumping WB cross on the original SB -no one knows what might have happened if the stallions had been used on riding stock instead of harness stock.

Without top riders, I wonder what level the amateur ridden WBs reach? That is the only rider that has been involved with the SB except in very rare instances; with capable competitive riders, the success rate surprises most people.

Personally I prefer pure Saddlebreds, but I don’t see the negative of using them with WB if one prefers and has a clear outcome in mind where both parents contribute consistently and correctly for your discipline.

[fizzyfuzzybuzzy]

Silvia – your mares are stunning, and just what I am looking for here! If you would be willing to share their bloodlines, that would help me in my search immensely!

For the pro-ASBers out there – have any of you presented your mares to AWS or similar to be approved so foals could be registered?

For the negative nellys on this thread – I have decided to ignore you from this post forward. I did not ask WHETHER I should breed an ASB mare, but simply WHERE to find a horse I am in search of. You don’t know me, my education, or my goals, so you are cordially invited to stop interrupting the people attempting to give me the information I asked for.

Thank you!

[silvia]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7428328]

Personally I prefer pure Saddlebreds, but I don’t see the negative of using them with WB if one prefers and has a clear outcome in mind where both parents contribute consistently and correctly for your discipline.[/QUOTE]

I prefer them pure as well and have baulked at crossing with WB for a long time as I have been concerned about ruining their good temperaments, however there have been a few breeders here that have done the cross for several years and have been very happy with them. We’re going to look at the cross ourselves soon and hope it works out.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=silvia;7428271]
For what it’s worth, I agree with you - it’s not good enough to point out a smidge of Saddlebred breeding here and there.

I don’t like Warmbloods, I don’t enjoy them. I like watching them, but I hate riding them. That’s why I have Saddlebreds - I really enjoy working with them. We breed them for performance because that’s what I like and I know others enjoy the same qualities too.[/QUOTE]

Now…this post I have respect for.

[silvia]

[QUOTE=fizzyfuzzybuzzy;7428337]
Silvia – your mares are stunning, and just what I am looking for here! If you would be willing to share their bloodlines, that would help me in my search immensely![/QUOTE]

Fuzz, here are the details, hope they help :

The chestnut mare is compact and good bodied. She has three nice gaits and is tight in the back but good thinking and I am certain will be easily loosened up with training.

Pedigree:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/platinum+park+daydreamin

Damline is from Winsdown Farms in the USA which has a great reputation for producing (and they support the production of) sport horse Saddlebreds.

The black filly is very tall, narrow and rangy and has spectacular movement in all three gaits. She is a little long in the cannon but seems to make up for it everywhere else. Loose movement with long limbs. Sensitive but not dfficult.

Pedigree:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/platinum+park+reflected+dream

Damline similar to the chestnut mare, with the American standing stallion The Knight’s Reflection on top. This was the one we were looking to possibly cross with Trakhener else a heavily built Saddlebred.

The pinto filly is the first gen from our stallion’s crop. She is good in the body with a good long hindquarter. Movement is nice in all three gaits but not spectacular, however she has the natural ability and good strong attitude to cope with higher level training when that time comes.

Pedigree:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/tropical+storm7

Sire is very tall modern park type, a 3/4 brother to Doctor Zhivago. His sire is at stud in America and progeny from a heavier mare like we did with this filly produces the type you see above. Very amateur friendly temperaments and a lot of scope in their movement. Biggest issue with the breed is the lack of suspension and springy backs, which can be fixed with training or you look for lines that have it. Sadly the mare we secured to bring this into our programme was euthanised before we could import.

This filly was also assessed for ACE by Tonne Bockmann as a yearling and he really liked her type. She was well scored around 75% with 8’s for type front and topline.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Stoney447;7428146]
What I love most about threads like this is that neither side thinks they are in the wrong and nary will change their minds for anything.

Sure Bayhawk comes across blunt. He says what he means. He is entitled to his opinions, and they are certainly well-informed ones.

Sure, the OP is also entitled to breed whatever she wants, whenever she wants to.

This is a BB where people come to share their opinions. Whether its pro-ASB or against breeding ASB with warmbloods for sport, it shouldn’t matter as we all have the right to share our opinions within the scope of the rules of posting at COTH. If it hurts someone’s feelings, that is unfortunate, but I am so tired of people trying to tell us that we should water down our opinions until they are PC.

I, for one, choose to stay within the paradigm of European breeding, as I believe in their proven results as well as their breeding savvy and knowledge of bloodlines. It does not bother me that some of you think that is an insult, as thrown out somewhere earlier in this thread.[/QUOTE]

Stoney ! Long time no hear. Hope all is well !

Yes , I am blunt…it is my style . I crack up when folks here think that somethings rude , too blunt , arrogant or whatever. They wouldn’t make it 5 minutes at the dinner table with some of the best breeders in the world in Germany. What they call rude and blunt…I call education.

As long as folks keep living in the land of the offended…they will always be more concerned about how something was said, instead of what was actually said.

[propspony]

Wow Bayhawk, just wow.

Well, my back can’t handle a warmblood trot, nor do I want to deal with a warmblood brain, so when it came time to breed my TB mare for my next horse, I went to a gasp quarter horse stallion, with some proven “sport horse” breeding behind him.

Now, I’m not going to the Olympics, and I’m not going to ever event at the advanced level unless it involves some kind of drug-induced hallucination or… nope, can’t think of any other way… but…

I bred this filly to be my next prospect, with the intent of showing her lower level dressage, eventing, h/j etc. That made her a SPORT HORSE. That’s right. It’s the chosen discipline and NOT the breed.

This is not the “Warmblood Breeders Forum.” There are PLENTY of those out there.

I dare you to go tell a Connemara or Irish draught breeder they aren’t breeding “sport horses.” In fact, go tell the many, many people I grew up with who did ride morgans and saddlebreds (and quarters, paints and appaloosas) in the dressage and eventing rings, that they weren’t riding sport horses.

But I’d make sure and duck as soon as you said it.

[propspony]

and for clarity, I’m not referring to the “Should you cross a warmblood to an ASB mare” argument, but rather to the “How DARE You bring up a saddlebred on a SPORT HORSE breeding forum” comment.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=propspony;7428389]
and for clarity, I’m not referring to the “Should you cross a warmblood to an ASB mare” argument, but rather to the “How DARE You bring up a saddlebred on a SPORT HORSE breeding forum” comment.[/QUOTE]

I am right…this is a sporthorse breeding forum and I’ve asked for examples of ASB sporthorses and I got two…well actually only one because the other was Australian !

[Hobbs]

Is there an ignore function on this message board?

[propspony]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7428408]
I am right…this is a sporthorse breeding forum and I’ve asked for examples of ASB sporthorses and I got two…well actually only one because the other was Australian ![/QUOTE]

You’re joking right? Tons of people linked to saddlebred sporthorses, including one at Grand Prix, and one currently on the cover of Eventing Nation.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;7428132]
Wrong on both accounts. I live by a slaughter plant and the local auction sells them, approximately 50% go for slaughter (82k a year in Canada). And we have a very active SB community here. Lots of people use them for the mountains along with TW.
I think SB are wonderful horses. I just see lots of crosses that don’t work out well especially with Wb’s. I would rather see them crosses with a Morgan/Arab or a type that is more consistent with theirs. Then you don’t get the horse by committee.
It is sad how these conversations always go. Mud slinging from both sides, including WB’s could benefit from a cross with XYZ. The reality is that any cross will not bring as much as a full WB, unless it proves itself under saddle otherwise.
I hope that it works out well if the OP does go ahead. But this is a sport horse breeding board and I think the subject of a cross bred is important. In terms of success and responsibility.
Beowulf- lots of good horses go for slaughter. We have a surplus. 82k a year. Of course the ammy market horses goes for slaughter. And if WB’s have as many issues as you say…why would you use them to breed??? It is seriously this logic that is the problem.[/QUOTE]

FTR, I should probably add I am not talking about just TB racing. A lot of the SBs are slaughtered, and they’re nice horses. I think you overlooked my point. The market is saturated with good horses that go to slaughter, but most of them aren’t horses that were brought into this world for what the OP has in mind. I find it, quite frankly, disgusting that there are people on this forum with such close-mindedness. ASBs can be sport horses as can any other horse that proves sound and versatile - and the opinions expressed on this thread about how OP’s thread doesn’t belong in this forum is elitist and juvenile.

On another tangent, things go in and out of style - including horse breeds. It’s not to say that sometimes outcrossing can produce grotesque results – it certainly can. But I think a lot of the issue is people’s close-mindedness. For some reason most people seem to think only one type of horse is suited for a job, and that simply isn’t so. There are representatives of breeds in every discipline making a name for themselves (except for maybe, QH-only ones) and if it makes more people open their mind to the fact that “prospect” isn’t limited to WB only, I’m certainly open to it. It’ll keep more than one horse off a dinner plate…

As a side note to your comment, I wouldn’t use WBs to breed. So nothing to dispute there. If I wanted a horse that was sound until the day it died, I would never consider a “pureblooded” WB. Something with heavy TB or Arab blood, certainly - but that’s just little old me, and I’m not shooting for WC or ULs. I have no delusions of grandeur.

Of course, this type of comment will earn the disparagement of many breeders on this forum. But when I think of what kind of reputation most WBs have, “soundness” doesn’t seem to be one of them. Athletic, beautiful, and good movers do - but soundness seems to have fallen somewhere short in the equation.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=propspony;7428428]
You’re joking right? Tons of people linked to saddlebred sporthorses, including one at Grand Prix, and one currently on the cover of Eventing Nation.[/QUOTE]

Go look at the rankings…not one ranked in jumping , dressage , or eventing.

[endoftheday]

So then the question is - what is a “sporthorse”? A mini pulling a cart is certainly performing and is therefore a sporthorse(pony) according to the above arguments. Any horse performing can therefore be deemed a sporthorse. There is no disrespect for any breed or their attributes from this horse lover. The popularity of WBs has increased due to the WEG and Olympics etc yet many are not truly educated about the background. And quite frankly it is insulting to WB breeders (who are also sporthorse breeders) to hear that their breed needs to be “improved”. Love whatever breed you have - and if the OP wants to create a WB/ASB mix then she can. Just as a Perch/TB mix. She may have a nice horse. She will probably not be able to register it as a WB but she should know that if she is educated about WBs. ASBs are absolutely fine horses. They are not WBs.

[SmartAlex]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7428408]
I am right…this is a sporthorse breeding forum and I’ve asked for examples of ASB sporthorses and I got two…well actually only one because the other was Australian ![/QUOTE]

So the basis of your argument is that Endurance, Combined Driving and Fox Hunting are not sports and people who would like to breed those types of horses are also not welcome to discuss in the COTH breeding forum? Just like anyone who is not breeding for the olympic level of Dressage, Jumping and Eventing. Because D_Baldstockings et al can give you plenty of examples of Saddlebreds in those sports. But you’re right. No one should be breeding anything other than horses designed for those sports. We should all be riding your breeding culls instead.

vive la différence

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=SmartAlex;7428481]
So the basis of your argument is that Endurance, Combined Driving and Fox Hunting are not sports and people who would like to breed those types of horses are also not welcome to discuss in the COTH breeding forum? Just like anyone who is not breeding for the olympic level of Dressage, Jumping and Eventing. Because D_Baldstockings et al can give you plenty of examples of Saddlebreds in those sports. But you’re right. No one should be breeding anything other than horses designed for those sports. We should all be riding your breeding culls instead.

vive la différence[/QUOTE]

Didn’t say anything about anything you just wrote.

[propspony]

Here I will try this again. A “sport horse” is a horse that competes in specific disciplines. I doesn’t matter if it is “ranked” or not.

[endoftheday]

[QUOTE=propspony;7428498]
Here I will try this again. A “sport horse” is a horse that competes in specific disciplines. I doesn’t matter if it is “ranked” or not.[/QUOTE]

Will take that. What specific disciplines? no discrimination lol.
back to my point - why is the sport horse forum then often a place for some to discuss how they need to improve WBs with other breeds based on their own very subjective (and sometimes uneducated) opinions? Why does this forum always point back to the WB? Was the OP trying to find a good saddlebred mare to bred to a QH? no. As stated - no problem with trying to breed what you want. But it is an insult to the WB breeders to insinuate that WBs need correcting with non WB breeds. Just as an ASB breeder does not want to be told that her ASB needed correcting by a non ASB breed? I find a lack of respect for WBs in this thread.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Stoney447;7428146]
What I love most about threads like this is that neither side thinks they are in the wrong and nary will change their minds for anything.

Sure Bayhawk comes across blunt. He says what he means. He is entitled to his opinions, and they are certainly well-informed ones.

Sure, the OP is also entitled to breed whatever she wants, whenever she wants to.

This is a BB where people come to share their opinions. Whether its pro-ASB or against breeding ASB with warmbloods for sport, it shouldn’t matter as we all have the right to share our opinions within the scope of the rules of posting at COTH. If it hurts someone’s feelings, that is unfortunate, but I am so tired of people trying to tell us that we should water down our opinions until they are PC.

I, for one, choose to stay within the paradigm of European breeding, as I believe in their proven results as well as their breeding savvy and knowledge of bloodlines. It does not bother me that some of you think that is an insult, as thrown out somewhere earlier in this thread.[/QUOTE]

This comment struck me as funny, since Europeans have used a saddlebred to create some excellent jumpers.

If the horse has the desirable attributes, that’s what’s important. I don’t care if the horse is “unusual” for its breed. Heck, the average warmblood can’t jump scopey 1.4m courses or even piaffe well.

[Stoney447]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7428369]
Stoney ! Long time no hear. Hope all is well !

Yes , I am blunt…it is my style . I crack up when folks here think that somethings rude , too blunt , arrogant or whatever. They wouldn’t make it 5 minutes at the dinner table with some of the best breeders in the world in Germany. What they call rude and blunt…I call education.

As long as folks keep living in the land of the offended…they will always be more concerned about how something was said, instead of what was actually said.[/QUOTE]

All is well here! Looking forward to this year’s breeding season! Thinking about hitting the Z-tour this year to watch the young horses go in April, which should be fun.

Anyway, they may not like how you say it, but I am grateful that you do share some tidbits of your dinner table talk that I otherwise would never be privy to.