Where to find a saddlebred broodmare

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=epowers;7427667]
This is an Australian page. They are not talking about “American Saddle Breds” they are referring to “Australian Stud Book” mares. I would have thought this was fairly obvious, since they list the pedigree of the mares and most are anglo-trak. I can assure you on no uncertain terms that Trakehners do not allow American Saddlebreds in their books.[/QUOTE]

I am guessing that ASB in that context actually means “Australian Station Bred”. But I agree with you - just because some breeders are crossing various other breeds and crossbreds with Trakehners, it does NOT make the offspring “Trakehner”.

As has been mentioned, Trakehners are the closest thing in Euro warmblood circles to a true breed, specifically because they do not allow individuals from outside breeding populations to contribute to its top studbook for producing full papered Trakehners.

[Dance_To_Oblivion]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7427800]

My view is if a breeder has a thought out plan, does their homework, and is responsible with what they produce…then I’m not going to judge them just because it is or isn’t a choice that I would make. Sitting here with no details especially.

But if a goal is to produce an ammy friendly mount to go through the mid levels (4th dressage or Intermediate eventing or 1.2 meter jumpers) then there are a lot of roads to get there…and there are a LOT more riders who want even less of an athlete (they want the mind which IME you ARE more likely to get crossing a QH or ASB then sticking with WB only). A responsible breeder isn’t someone who just follows one path. It is someone who stays responsible for what they have produced.[/QUOTE]

This exactly. I don’t understand the venom directed at people simply because they have different breeding goals.

My gelding isn’t going to be an Advanced Level eventer, Grand Prix Show Jumper etc but he will certainly be a good 1* horse and who knows what else. If the OP, or anyone else, develops a good plan for their specific goals why do other people feel the need to be ugly about it?

[DownYonder]

And for those of you continually pointing to examples here and there of an ASB or ASB cross that is moderately successful in a sport horse discipline - no one is disputing that certain individuals from a “non sport horse” registry can do well in the sport horse disciplines. What some people are trying to point out is that these individuals are not the rule, and since they do not come from a breeding population traditionally bred for sport horse qualities, they do not possess the genetic depth of sport horse qualities that make them valuable to serious sport horse breeders aiming to produce for top of sport.

[ASBJumper]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;7427875]
What some people are trying to point out is that these individuals are not the rule, and since they do not come from a breeding population traditionally bred for sport horse qualities, they do not possess the genetic depth of sport horse qualities that make them valuable to serious sport horse breeders aiming to produce for top of sport.[/QUOTE]

The OP did not say she wanted to breed for an international GP jumper. She never said she was looking to produce a world-class FEI mount. So the points being made are irrelevant, unncessary and borderline inflammatory.

And when you say “sport” over and over again, you must obviously mean Jumping and Dressage only - and not racing, correct? Then pray tell what was the point of ever using quality TBs in sporthorse breeding, if they did not have “genetic depth of sport horse qualities” behind them…? Or Arabs, for that matter?

You clearly have no idea WHAT Saddlebreds were bred for before Saddleseat became a “thing”. They have generations upon generations of breeding as comfortable, agile, athletic riding horses with incredible tractable, trainable temperaments. They get their incredible heart and endurance from their TB ancestry. Before the infusion of WBs in NA, they were common in the jumping ring, often passed off as TBs, and were used in local races, long distance rides and as cavalry mounts. And… their numbers are extremely limited (and decreasing slowly with each passing year), so the fact that there are ANY competing at the mid-upper levels is a feat, if you consider numbers and percentages properly.

[ReSomething]

Inflammatory?

Oh, just a teeny tiny bit.

Hopefully the OP will have gotten some help to achieve her goals, this thread will die, and those of you that are horrified by the very idea can retreat back to your regular business.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=ASBJumper;7427890]
The OP did not say she wanted to breed for an international GP jumper. She never said she was looking to produce a world-class FEI mount. So the points being made are irrelevant, unncessary and borderline inflammatory.

And when you say “sport” over and over again, you must obviously mean Jumping and Dressage only - and not racing, correct? Then pray tell what was the point of ever using quality TBs in sporthorse breeding, if they did not have “genetic depth of sport horse qualities” behind them…? Or Arabs, for that matter?

You clearly have no idea WHAT Saddlebreds were bred for before Saddleseat became a “thing”. They have generations upon generations of breeding as comfortable, agile, athletic riding horses with incredible tractable, trainable temperaments. They get their incredible heart and endurance from their TB ancestry. Before the infusion of WBs in NA, they were common in the jumping ring, often passed off as TBs, and were used in local races, long distance rides and as cavalry mounts. And… their numbers are extremely limited (and decreasing slowly with each passing year), so the fact that there are ANY competing at the mid-upper levels is a feat, if you consider numbers and percentages properly.[/QUOTE]

FYI - my aunt raised and showed Saddlebreds. The first horses I spent any time around or rode were Saddlebreds. I have a very good understanding of where Saddlebreds came from, and I stand by my comments - they were not traditionally bred for top of sport. And yes, I mean primarily jumping and dressage, along with eventing. And I am :rolleyes: that you don’t understand the difference for SPORT HORSE DISCIPLINES between the genetic depth brought by TBs versus the genetic depth brought by ASBs.

[halo]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7423459]
I said it before…this is a sport horse breeding forum. I go to sporthorse shows all over the world and have never seen a Saddlebred in them.

Still waiting for the examples of “amazing” jumpers or dressage horses coming from ASB mothers.

To the poster who asked why I come to this board. The answer is that I keep hoping that some of the true horsemen and breeders may have returned but I see my effort is futile.[/QUOTE]

Im sure they were there, you just didnt know what you were looking at.

[ASBJumper]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;7427965]
FYI - my aunt raised and showed Saddlebreds. The first horses I spent any time around or rode were Saddlebreds. I have a very good understanding of where Saddlebreds came from, and I stand by my comments - they were not traditionally bred for top of sport. And yes, I mean primarily jumping and dressage, along with eventing. And I am :rolleyes: that you don’t understand the difference for SPORT HORSE DISCIPLINES between the genetic depth brought by TBs versus the genetic depth brought by ASBs.[/QUOTE]

Well, there you have it - apparently the only horse “sports” out there are Dressage, Eventing and Showjumping.

Racing, Combined Driving, Steeplechase, Endurance, apparently these are not sports. And since they are not sports, then neither TBs nor Arabs were ever bred for “sport” (let alone the “top” of sport), yet they were used (prolifically) in the breeding of Warmbloods.

Logical. Makes perfect sense.

[beowulf]

I don’t understand why you WOULDN’T want to breed the right type of ASB to a WB. The right ASB is everything most WBs aren’t - sound their entire lives, intelligent, and willing to throw themselves off a cliff if it makes their owner happy… Can’t tell you how many nasty, rude, temperamental, inconsistent, lame, unwilling and untrustworthy warmbloods I’ve met. Don’t get me wrong, I love warmbloods - I could talk about my favorite families all day - but most of them came from TB or Anglo or SB descent…

I often think the WBs as a whole would benefit greatly from some sound blood and infusion. The way the registries are going now it makes me wonder if the horses will hold up soundness wise their entire lives. The extravagant movement and (to me) undesirable conformation exhibited in the all-the-rage stallions today is alarming, and these hot stallions are typically nowhere to be found in competition tomorrow. And most of the WBs I know (which have come from well respected lines) are sidelined with life-ending injuries at an early age. A barn I rode at in college was replete with WBs from every registry and line imaginable (many of which are discussed with fervor on this forum) and there were only a handful of them (3, maybe?) that were sound AND generous/willing partners.

OP good for you for taking the snarky commentary and unwelcome critique so well. I hope you find the mare of your dreams and when you do, I think an update post in this “Sport Horse Breeding” forum is mandatory. Sport Horse Breeding to me doesn’t mean just warmbloods… I guess the only sports out there are the ones the WBs are in? So dressage and jumping exclusively? Driving, racing, endurance and steeple chasing aren’t sports either?

PM me your prerequisites if you want - I have a close friend who has a 3rd level ASB mount that is retired. I don’t know if she’s ever considered breeding her, but I bet she could point you in the direction of one like her mare. One of the best mares I’ve ever met.

[beowulf]

And to the comment about tons of nice horses going to auction and consequentially slaughter, don’t contribute, etc etc…

I’m guessing you have never set foot in those types of situations - or even met an ASB in person. I’ve been to plenty of auction houses, from New Holland to the scarier auctions down south where the only attendees are killbuyers and hillbillies. The horses that go through there are rarely the product of someone’s “ammy type lower level sport horse”.

Most of the horses that go through are products of racing industry and backyard breeding. And I mean Clyde and Glenn’s backyard breeding where they put their downhill and half blind QH and mini together just because they have the parts and an unoccupied uterus. You see lots of horses that are lame or crippled, and you see a lot of conformationally defunct horses too.

Every now and then you find a nice horse, and it is truly is tragic. There are tons of nice horses going to slaughter every day, but they are rarely from the OP’s market or industry.

And you know, for the record - the percentage of horses that are slaughtered that came from OP’s conscientiously bred ammy-market are very likely the same percentage of horses that go to slaughter from your market, Bayhawk. The horses in Euro that are bred to be UL/WC horses and don’t make it - those horses end up on dinner plates too!

[Laurierace]

Well that isn’t necessarily true. I personally have bought two saddlebreds out of the kill pen and the rescue I volunteered for pulled dozens. Especially at New Holland, the saddlebreds are beloved by the amish until they are not and they are discarded. No breed is immune from having an asshat owner but to villify the OP is ridiculous.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=halo;7427990]
Im sure they were there, you just didnt know what you were looking at.[/QUOTE]

No , see that’s just my point. We know exactly what we are looking at because we know the pedigree , breeder and studbook of record.

There are no Saddlebreds , nor a single one in the pedigree in top jumping sport. It doesn’t really need to be at the top. Go to the 5yr old show at WEF and see if you see horses with saddlebred blood in the showring.

Hell , you people were just caught trying to take credit from the Australiens when you saw ASB beside the horses name and you thought it meant American Saddlebred ! You don’t have a clue as to what you are talking about…

[stoicfish]

Wrong on both accounts. I live by a slaughter plant and the local auction sells them, approximately 50% go for slaughter (82k a year in Canada). And we have a very active SB community here. Lots of people use them for the mountains along with TW.
I think SB are wonderful horses. I just see lots of crosses that don’t work out well especially with Wb’s. I would rather see them crosses with a Morgan/Arab or a type that is more consistent with theirs. Then you don’t get the horse by committee.
It is sad how these conversations always go. Mud slinging from both sides, including WB’s could benefit from a cross with XYZ. The reality is that any cross will not bring as much as a full WB, unless it proves itself under saddle otherwise.
I hope that it works out well if the OP does go ahead. But this is a sport horse breeding board and I think the subject of a cross bred is important. In terms of success and responsibility.
Beowulf- lots of good horses go for slaughter. We have a surplus. 82k a year. Of course the ammy market horses goes for slaughter. And if WB’s have as many issues as you say…why would you use them to breed??? It is seriously this logic that is the problem.

[Stoney447]

@ReSomething;7427905

Inflammatory?

Oh, just a teeny tiny bit.

What I love most about threads like this is that neither side thinks they are in the wrong and nary will change their minds for anything.

Sure Bayhawk comes across blunt. He says what he means. He is entitled to his opinions, and they are certainly well-informed ones.

Sure, the OP is also entitled to breed whatever she wants, whenever she wants to.

This is a BB where people come to share their opinions. Whether its pro-ASB or against breeding ASB with warmbloods for sport, it shouldn’t matter as we all have the right to share our opinions within the scope of the rules of posting at COTH. If it hurts someone’s feelings, that is unfortunate, but I am so tired of people trying to tell us that we should water down our opinions until they are PC.

I, for one, choose to stay within the paradigm of European breeding, as I believe in their proven results as well as their breeding savvy and knowledge of bloodlines. It does not bother me that some of you think that is an insult, as thrown out somewhere earlier in this thread.

[ReSomething]

“You people” would be me. And I can’t tell you just how it makes me feel to be belittled, called ignorant and uneducated for an honest error. Not one of you people had the grace to correct me politely.

[Texarkana]

I remember watching Maxamillion (ASB x dutch cross) jump around at one of his inspections and being both shocked and impressed at his natural athleticism…

[QUOTE=Dance_To_Oblivion;7423774]
Sigh…I realize that this is probably going to open me up to a ridiculous amount of criticism, but good jumper can come from ASB mothers.[/QUOTE]

Your horse is gorgeous!

The only ignorance I see on this thread is the utter closed-mindedness being spewed by Bayhawk. Give it up, dude.

[silvia]

[QUOTE=ReSomething;7428148]
“You people” would be me. And I can’t tell you just how it makes me feel to be belittled, called ignorant and uneducated for an honest error. Not one of you people had the grace to correct me politely.[/QUOTE]

Don’t worry about it too much. People get excited when pushing their opinions around and tend to trample others in the process. I enjoyed your posts and if you make a mistake, so what - everyone does

We run an American Saddlebred stud in Australia with the express purpose of producing light horses for competition. The oldest we have right now is about to go under saddle so nothing performance wise yet, but I wanted to add to the discussion as our purposes are relevant to the OP’s post.

There is no question that the American Saddlebred is not as easy a task to develop for dressage in the body as most Warmbloods.

However there is also no question that the American Saddlebred is an incredible horse for the non-professional to ride and work with. Their willingness to work, forgiveness of errors and ability to quickly change wrongly taught things into the right form makes them absolutely fantastic to anyone learning to go up the levels with one horse.

I’ve worked with them for nearly 20 years now and find them an absolutely joy to deal with. That’s why we own and breed them for others to experience how fantastic they are as a saddle horse. It’s not the physical ability or the little shortcomings to be conquered, it’s the outstanding mental attitude that gets you over the line. They just handle everything. It’s fantastic.

I’ve attached a few snaps of our breeding stock for the OP, to see the type we are selecting for breeding for dressage and eventing. OP, if you would like bloodline details (most have recent imported lines and would have similar readily available in the USA) please let me know. The black mare is one we are considering crossing to WB, if it doesn’t make her too coarse.

5yo mare
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/t1/1385193_464236763694776_1878265328_n.jpg

2yo filly
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1/1378257_464237977027988_1533976620_n.jpg

2yo filly
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t1/546892_286279728157148_1156333008_n.jpg

Cheers

[endoftheday]

Why do people come on this forum and attempt to justify why they need to “fix” faults in WBs with non-WB breeds? WBs are exceptional for their purposes and it has taken years of closed or select breeding to get them this way. If you don’t like WBs for what they have been bred to be - stick with another breed. I have yet to see a WB breeder on a thread for another breed telling them they need a WB to correct them for their discipline. If ASBs where so good at sporthorse disciplines you would see a heavy infiltration already. Its not like the ASB is a newly discovered breed… If they are so predominant in WB pedigrees - why is it such a secret? What are the statistics? I like ASBs, but stating that they are secretly enhancing WB pedigrees is absurd. If they were such a benefit don’t you think WB breeders would have been jumping on it for years? And publicly?

[GAEventer]

Look who EN is featuring this week

http://eventingnation.com/home/a-horse-of-a-different-color-giving-you-the-business/

[silvia]

[QUOTE=endoftheday;7428247]
Why do people come on this forum and attempt to justify why they need to “fix” faults in WBs with non-WB breeds? WBs are exceptional for their purposes and it has taken years of closed or select breeding to get them this way. If you don’t like WBs for what they have been bred to be - stick with another breed. I have yet to see a WB breeder on a thread for another breed telling them they need a WB to correct them for their discipline. If ASBs where so good at sporthorse disciplines you would see a heavy infiltration already. Its not like the ASB is a newly discovered breed… If they are so predominant in WB pedigrees - why is it such a secret? What are the statistics? I like ASBs, but stating that they are secretly enhancing WB pedigrees is absurd. If they were such a benefit don’t you think WB breeders would have been jumping on it for years? And publicly?[/QUOTE]

For what it’s worth, I agree with you - it’s not good enough to point out a smidge of Saddlebred breeding here and there.

I don’t like Warmbloods, I don’t enjoy them. I like watching them, but I hate riding them. That’s why I have Saddlebreds - I really enjoy working with them. We breed them for performance because that’s what I like and I know others enjoy the same qualities too.