Where to find a saddlebred broodmare

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;7426940]
As for Bayhawk, while his delivery certainly could use some polish, I can see where he is coming from. He breeds for the very top of sport, and he is affiliated with a top, top European WB registry with a long and proud tradition of producing jumping horses for the international big rings. For him, using a horse from a breeding population that has traditionally not been bred for show jumping, would be a huge, huge step backwards. While there have been some references on this thread to ASBs and ASB crosses achieving some success in various sport horse disciplines, I am not sure there is a single example of one who was/is consistently successful in the international show jumping arena.[/QUOTE]

Thank you DY…but my delivery doesn’t need polish. I meant for it to sound exactly as it did.

With breeding down around the globe and sooooo many horses standing around both here and in Europe that will ultimately go to slaughter , attempting to produce a horse that the majority of the world population doesn’t want is just irresponsible.

Think about it people before you bring a horse into the world !

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7426990]
Thank you DY…but my delivery doesn’t need polish. I meant for it to sound exactly as it did.

With breeding down around the globe and sooooo many horses standing around both here and in Europe that will ultimately go to slaughter , attempting to produce a horse that the majority of the world population doesn’t want is just irresponsible.

Think about it people before you bring a horse into the world ![/QUOTE]

While I agree about thinking before bringing a horse into the world…I disagree about your views of the ASB. Those may be your views…or the views of people very Euro Centric who think so high and mighty about themselves and the WBs…but for a large population of riders and owners, there are others worlds out there besides showing in the Olympic disciplines…and there are other very valid goals in breeding a horse besides just trying to breed an UL/International mount.

I tend to think breeding an athletic but ammy minded horse who could go in many directions is a fairly intelligent breeding goal—aimed more for the US general market. It isn’t mine…I’m trying to bred for the top level of my sport…but I respect it as a goal and do not think they are making some RADICAL breeding choices.

Me, I’d not cross a good ASB with a warmblood…because I wouldn’t want the WB mixed blood in there.

Here is article today in Eventing Nation. Again, the ammy market in my sport is much MUCH bigger than the market for the next 4* horse. So I can understand aiming to breed a nice allround horse that is well suited for that market. Again–not my goal, but a vaild business goal for someone else.

To me, the ASB is an old american breed. And has a lot of qualities that are desirable in any breeding program. But like all things, it takes the right individuals/family lines.

http://eventingnation.com/home/a-horse-of-a-different-color-giving-you-the-business/

[Bayhawk]

I disagree bornfree…there are so many horses that are not good enough for the top of the discipline and most make perfect ammy mounts with good brains and rideability.

This crap about needing to add Saddlebred blood for a good brain is ludicrous. Some of the best brains and mouths are on horses that only have 1.30 meter potential.

Go to any show around , ask most any trainers around…few would ever even consider this type of horse for their clients.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7427194]
I disagree bornfree…there are so many horses that are not good enough for the top of the discipline and most make perfect ammy mounts with good brains and rideability.

This crap about needing to add Saddlebred blood for a good brain is ludicrous. Some of the best brains and mouths are on horses that only have 1.30 meter potential.

Go to any show around , ask most any trainers around…few would ever even consider this type of horse for their clients.[/QUOTE]

Depends on which circle of trainers you run in I suppose. MOST american trainers haven’t a clue on breeding and don’t give a crap about it. All they care about is the individual horse. If it will do the job they want it for. A very very very small percentage care about a brand on the butt…but most do not. Typically only breeders care about pedigree.

That is one of the bad things about american trainers in my book. But even some of those that DO know breeding…ultimately they only care about the individual produced not its pedigree. My trainers care if they are rideable, sound and fit for their job (mentally and physically)…and what is needed for a particular student. And if they are an off breed but look the part…they are fine with it.

[stoicfish]

I think ammy horses are a good goal but that doesn’t give people a licence to breed anything under the guise of ammy horse. A good amature horse should be very athletic and have a patient temperament. BUT, these horses already exist in the different breeds. Plus they have value within their breed to protect the horse in terms of possible uses. I agree with the fact that ammy horses or crosses are already out there. We don’t need more horses, we need more trained horses with jobs. The horses are already out there. Why not find a ABS colt and train it up?

It is sort of a catch 22 if you say you need to add Wb, for talent or ABS for the mind then you are already starting with two horses of which neither fit your goal and are hoping the cross does the job…which is part of the issue with too many horses in NA. In breeding, each parent should be acceptable as is, other wise they are not a good candidate.
Just find a WB with a good temperament or an ABS with dressage potential.

and the nice saddlebreds have GREAT brains and will mellow at hot WB temperment without losing the gaits or making them thick/earthbound.

That is not how breeding works, you get random traits of both parents, like losing the gaits and a hot mind.
I know of a 3/4 Wb/ Arab that has 2 excellent WB dressage stallions in the pedigree and it still looks like a weird little arab with not great gaits. 2 gens of WB stallions and still not the desired results. This is as common or more so then the success stories.

[Donella]

I agree with Bayhawk. I mean this in the nicest possible way but the reality is that there are a kabillion horses out there that fit the description of “pretty” and “ammy friendly” and many of them go to slaughter. That means the market for a horse that simply has a good temperament and looks nice is flooded. So why try to breed more? There are enough horses out there suffering the consequences of ill thought out/ignorant breeding decisions.

[ASBJumper]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7423183]
Amazing jumpers ? I will eagerly await an example of an amazing jumper coming from a ASB mother.[/QUOTE]

Here you go:

http://www.horse-canada.com/horse-news/angela-covert-lawrence-claims-40000-grand-prix-of-blainville/
https://data.fei.org/Horse/Performance.aspx?p=22D861B89539FB0B3728D14033837F9F

This mare is BWP papered, but her dam is a Saddlebred - that was entered into the BWP books in Belgium.
She not only competed at GP, she WON at that level.

So Bayhawk, please keep your ignorant comments to yourself if you have nothing helpful to say.

[Megaladon]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;7426932]
That story just keeps getting refloated. :sigh:

The Dutch at one time imported two ASB stallions to be used on a trial basis for their HARNESS HORSE book. One stallion was eliminated very quickly from the breeding books, and the other eliminated after evaluation of his first foal crops. He was not producing consistent resultants on a par with the offspring of full DHH (Dutch Harness Horse) stallions, and the desired qualities he was injecting were outweighed by the negative qualities.

Also note that the stallions were never approved for the RIDING HORSE books.[/QUOTE]

My apologies for refloating the story.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=ASBJumper;7427356]
Here you go:

http://www.horse-canada.com/horse-news/angela-covert-lawrence-claims-40000-grand-prix-of-blainville/
https://data.fei.org/Horse/Performance.aspx?p=22D861B89539FB0B3728D14033837F9F

This mare is BWP papered, but her dam is a Saddlebred - that was entered into the BWP books in Belgium.
She not only competed at GP, she WON at that level.

So Bayhawk, please keep your ignorant comments to yourself if you have nothing helpful to say.[/QUOTE]

You have shown nothing here other than an exception in a tiny mini prix somewhere in the middle of nowhere !

I can show you a QH Peter Leone rode in the World Cup but do you think he is out looking for more QH’s ? Do you think we should start breeding QH crosses for WC showjumping ?

The only ignorance being spewed here is from those that don’t know a darn thing other than how to give foo-foo a carrot and to kiss her on the nose.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Donella;7427338]
I agree with Bayhawk. I mean this in the nicest possible way but the reality is that there are a kabillion horses out there that fit the description of “pretty” and “ammy friendly” and many of them go to slaughter. That means the market for a horse that simply has a good temperament and looks nice is flooded. So why try to breed more? There are enough horses out there suffering the consequences of ill thought out/ignorant breeding decisions.[/QUOTE

Where is the like button for this !

[ReSomething]

Where did I read of ASB bloodlines in Trakheners - all hearsay I guess - although this Australian stud has ASB mares in the broodmare band and I can’t see where they are breeding pure ASB as well as Trak. I could have definitely missed that if they are.

http://oritahpark.webs.com/mares.htm

[D_BaldStockings]

Oh, those poor people with Cream on Top…

Who does trace to Holland’s Golden Boy, despite the fact he was not approved for Riding horse breeding…
http://www.hansdings.nl/index.php?c=Nieuws_detail&id=3&l=eng

Mayhaps people should discard all of Farn’s get, too, as he was old-type and had (gasp!) Arab ancestry.
But there was that pesky Ferro, and later Metall, not to mention Nimmerdor…

I don’t think most on here are ignorant.
Most people selectively remember what they want; what jibes with their preconceived ideas. That’s human nature. And leaves lots of room for innovation or differing viewpoints. Heck even the Europeans had to start from scratch post WWII and it is amazing what careful infusion of Thoroughbred, Trotter, and anglo Arab sires wrought on the hefty farmstock/cavalry recruitstock in 70 years.

Not to mention their astounding marketing and exclusive WBFS that only records success within their breeding registries coterie and ranks registries rather than sires or dams across registries which might prove the actual bloodlines of the horses across registries… you know, BREEDING statistics that would be helpful to those actually making mating decisions.

[cb06]

[QUOTE=Megaladon;7427550]
My apologies for refloating the story.[/QUOTE]

Again, the horse I posted, Superman, a Grand Prix horse and registered KWPN (Dutch Warmblood)…His Dam sire IS Holland’s Golden Boy, a full ASB…clearly stated on his facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.462134840953.242619.323733875953&type=3

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/hollands+golden+boy

http://youtu.be/PfZNGWpYwv8

[epowers]

[QUOTE=ReSomething;7427626]
Where did I read of ASB bloodlines in Trakheners - all hearsay I guess - although this Australian stud has ASB mares in the broodmare band and I can’t see where they are breeding pure ASB as well as Trak. I could have definitely missed that if they are.

http://oritahpark.webs.com/mares.htm[/QUOTE]

This is an Australian page. They are not talking about “American Saddle Breds” they are referring to “Australian Stud Book” mares. I would have thought this was fairly obvious, since they list the pedigree of the mares and most are anglo-trak. I can assure you on no uncertain terms that Trakehners do not allow American Saddlebreds in their books.

[_Tradewind]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;7426940]
As for Bayhawk, while his delivery certainly could use some polish, I can see where he is coming from. He breeds for the very top of sport, and he is affiliated with a top, top European WB registry with a long and proud tradition of producing jumping horses for the international big rings. For him, using a horse from a breeding population that has traditionally not been bred for show jumping, would be a huge, huge step backwards. While there have been some references on this thread to ASBs and ASB crosses achieving some success in various sport horse disciplines, I am not sure there is a single example of one who was/is consistently successful in the international show jumping arena.[/QUOTE]

THIS. Absolutely. Different breeding/competition goals. Those posters who refer to their ASB crosses having tremendous jumping ability are likely not referring to ability to jump 1.40 m+ which is the goal of breeding for breeders like Bayhawk. Not that breeding for the amateur market should be discounted as it represents the vast majority of riders, but it is sometimes difficult for breeders of high level horses to comprehend breeding for the lower levels.

I breed for and ride at the upper levels of eventing, so when the videos of successful ASB “eventers” posted show horses competing at the Novice level, this doesn’t fit with my model of eventing achievement. However, 80% of event riders do not compete above Training level, so this market definitely has to be considered. I also agree, though, that breeding for the “lower levels” should not be an excuse to breed crap. If you aim to breed a 1.60 m horse, more often than not you won’t get quite the ability you’re striving for. Therefore, it should be no one’s goal to breed a horse that might get to Novice level, as you’re likely to end up with a talentless backyard animal.

[ASBJumper]

[QUOTE=Tradewind;7427760]
THIS. Absolutely. Different breeding/competition goals. Those posters who refer to their ASB crosses having tremendous jumping/dressage ability are likely not referring to ability to jump 1.40 m+ which is the goal of breeding for breeders like Bayhawk. Not that breeding for the amateur market should be discounted, as it represents the vast majority of riders, but it is sometimes difficult for breeders of high level horses to comprehend breeding for the lower levels.

I breed for and ride at the upper levels of eventing, so when the videos of successful ASB “eventers” posted show horses competing at the Novice level, this doesn’t fit with my model of eventing achievement. However, 80% of event riders do not compete above Training level, so this market definitely has to be considered.[/QUOTE]

Fine then, here:
http://eventingnation.com/home/a-horse-of-a-different-color-giving-you-the-business/

Competing at Prelim this year, rider hoping to move up to a 1* by end of season. After that, who knows.

This horse (scroll down to Canyonleigh Sir Echo) competed to the 1* level and was sold before moving up to Intermediate:
http://www.katechadderton.com/team_horses.html

[_Tradewind]

[QUOTE=ASBJumper;7427766]
Fine then, here:
http://eventingnation.com/home/a-horse-of-a-different-color-giving-you-the-business/

Competing at Prelim this year, rider hoping to move up to a 1* by end of season. After that, who knows.

This horse (scroll down to Canyonleigh Sir Echo) competed to the 1* level and was sold before moving up to Intermediate:
http://www.katechadderton.com/team_horses.html[/QUOTE]

I’m not trying to discourage breeders of ASB crosses from breeding event horses, but the reason these are standouts is because they are EXCEPTIONS. No one would post an article about how interesting it is that a Thoroughbred/Irish Sporthorse/Holsteiner etc. made it to 1* level (which, by the way, is far from the top level of the sport).

Is this because breeders to not consider ASBs in their breeding programs? Because these horses are so targeted towards other disciplines that they don’t make their way into eventing/dressage/jumpers? Perhaps, although unlikely.

I know a 15.1 Morgan that competed successfully to 2* level in eventing. He is a phenom. It did make me sit up and take notice, and become somewhat less prejudiced against Morgans on an individual basis. But that does not make me want to rush out and buy a Morgan to be my next upper level event horse. If he were a mare, as an exceptional individual, would he be worth breeding? Sure, why not? Maybe unorthodox, but on a case-by-case basis I see no reason to discriminate against exceptional individuals, even if they are the exception to the rule.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=ASBJumper;7427766]
Fine then, here:
http://eventingnation.com/home/a-horse-of-a-different-color-giving-you-the-business/

Competing at Prelim this year, rider hoping to move up to a 1* by end of season. After that, who knows.

This horse (scroll down to Canyonleigh Sir Echo) competed to the 1* level and was sold before moving up to Intermediate:
http://www.katechadderton.com/team_horses.html[/QUOTE]

Those will not impress them as they are not WC/Olympic level. I’m still a bit flabbergasted that someone thinks just because a breeder doesn’t follow their model they are contributing to the slaughter houses.

Really…I’ve been to those auctions. They are not brimming with nice pretty ammy friendly prospects. And absolutely agreement about too much indiscriminate breeding—of course I’ve seen that by a few WB breeders too. And hearing the difficulty people have finding that nice ammy horse…I don’t think there are a Kabillion of them out there of any breed.

My view is if a breeder has a thought out plan, does their homework, and is responsible with what they produce…then I’m not going to judge them just because it is or isn’t a choice that I would make. Sitting here with no details especially.

But if a goal is to produce an ammy friendly mount to go through the mid levels (4th dressage or Intermediate eventing or 1.2 meter jumpers) then there are a lot of roads to get there…and there are a LOT more riders who want even less of an athlete (they want the mind which IME you ARE more likely to get crossing a QH or ASB then sticking with WB only). A responsible breeder isn’t someone who just follows one path. It is someone who stays responsible for what they have produced.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Tradewind;7427760]
THIS. Absolutely. Different breeding/competition goals. Those posters who refer to their ASB crosses having tremendous jumping ability are likely not referring to ability to jump 1.40 m+ which is the goal of breeding for breeders like Bayhawk. Not that breeding for the amateur market should be discounted as it represents the vast majority of riders, but it is sometimes difficult for breeders of high level horses to comprehend breeding for the lower levels.

I breed for and ride at the upper levels of eventing, so when the videos of successful ASB “eventers” posted show horses competing at the Novice level, this doesn’t fit with my model of eventing achievement. However, 80% of event riders do not compete above Training level, so this market definitely has to be considered. I also agree, though, that breeding for the “lower levels” should not be an excuse to breed crap. If you aim to breed a 1.60 m horse, more often than not you won’t get quite the ability you’re striving for. Therefore, it should be no one’s goal to breed a horse that might get to Novice level, as you’re likely to end up with a talentless backyard animal.[/QUOTE]

oh, the horror, close your eyes:

Grandsire Holland’s Golden Boy: winning jumper mare, in Europe, Dutch rider, KWPN registry:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbGDVNcexW8

http://www.globalchampionstour.com/events/2011/valkenswaard/news/562/horse-festival-valkenswaard-van-der-pol-scores-top-spot-again-today/

http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/664213

Marlon is also in the pedigree, whose ancestry is Selle Francais, AngloArab, Thoroughbred and Groningen; more TB and Selle Francais coming in through the 3rd and 4th dams… but KWPN gets all the credit, no?

[_Tradewind]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7427817]
oh, the horror, close your eyes:

Grandsire Holland’s Golden Boy: winning jumper mare, in Europe, Dutch rider, KWPN registry:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbGDVNcexW8

http://www.globalchampionstour.com/events/2011/valkenswaard/news/562/horse-festival-valkenswaard-van-der-pol-scores-top-spot-again-today/

http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/664213

Marlon is also in the pedigree, whose ancestry is Selle Francais, AngloArab, Thoroughbred and Groningen; more TB and Selle Francais coming in through the 3rd and 4th dams… but KWPN gets all the credit, no?[/QUOTE]

Why is this in response to my comment…? I am not discrediting Saddlebreds in general, just suggesting that those who breed for the upper levels vs. the amateur market will have different breeding goals and will prioritize different characteristics.

BTW, this is also not really supportive of the claim that ASBs make good upper level horses. You are giving an example of a horse that is 1/4 Saddlebred, ie. 75% NOT Saddlebred. Relevance…? The Tourmaline Rose (Advanced eventer under Pippa Funnell, 3 time winner of the Hickstead Eventer’s Grand Prix) was 1/4 Lusitano (which I think is cool because I have a fair amount of experience with baroque horses). Yet, how many Lusitanos do you see in the ring at Hickstead?