Are Trakehners officially WB? There are a lot of ASB crosses into them.
Another question, WB registries typically don’t have a closed book do they? Pedigree counts but so does conformation, attitude and aptitude, at least I thought that’s why they kept the mare books where they aren’t quite right but their offspring are eliglble.
Remember in your search that a LOT of the eye bugging out, ‘weird’ muscling etc. comes from training. If you take the same horse out of the SS world and ask it to go like a dressage horse, the muscling will be different and the horse will look and move differently. Plus, most of that crazy, jumping out of it’s skin look is the horse showing off. Take those horses out of the show environment and they’re mostly very sane reasonable horses.
So if your looking for a good quality mare for breeding, don’t discount the SS types.
[QUOTE=ReSomething;7425620]
Are Trakehners officially WB? There are a lot of ASB crosses into them.
Another question, WB registries typically don’t have a closed book do they? Pedigree counts but so does conformation, attitude and aptitude, at least I thought that’s why they kept the mare books where they aren’t quite right but their offspring are eliglble.[/QUOTE]
Traks are the original WB and practically a breed.
And most of the respectable European WB registries had closed books and now have books open to other WB registries after inspection. The idea that they are open, and it is simply an inspection of type, is how some of the NA registries have approached it. Nothing to do with how WB’s were developed traditionally.
So yes, there are NA registries that will allow anything but that is not a reflection on WB’s in general. The COP were one exception but they are tightening up on them also for the respected registries.
It is hard to get consistency and quality if you only go on type. Pedigree is everything for the successful horses.
Were not ASBs used at one time in Dutch breeding? I seem to recall an article written about a horse named “(something’s) Playboy” and when he got to the Netherlands his name was changed because play (spelled different) means toilet in Dutch.
I think the cross is like any other breeding, you look at the mare and her pedigree, and siblings/family line and their performance. Also the stallion and his progeny preferably with others from the same family line or at least the same attitude and type.
My pony is an ASB on a Paint (so largely QH). I was hoping for ASB desire and QH common sense but his upbringing as a pet sort of messed that up. He is quite short of course, but very handy.
I’m a little sad that over the time I’ve been in horses we seem to have pigeonholed our breeding so now we have the perfect dressage lines in WB and the perfect jumping lines in WB, and never the twain shall meet. And what we’ve done in our breeding for the perfect QH halter horse makes me sick.
I think OP has every right to seek a horse that isn’t “perfect” but will be perfect for her. If ASB appeal to her then more power to her.
The Dutch Harness Horse x Saddlebred and Arab crosses are going to change the show horse industry positively. They are even better than we expected. The oldest ones are already in training with several well known Saddlebred and Arab trainers. They are good thinkers, very trainable, sound and have a lot of natural ability. The first ones that are shown proved to be winners. While countless open venues exist to enjoy different competition and discipline activities, several horse breeds registries also offer pedigree registration and showing opportunities for horses with Dutch Harness Horse lineage including: The Renai Horse Registry The Show Horse Alliance Half-Arabian Registry Half-Saddlebred Registry Dutch Harness Horse Registry of North America NAWPN
http://www.dutchharnesshorses.nl/index2.php?S=TheBreed&&AT=
Very similar types and purpose to start with.
Have not seen it in their jumpers or dressage horses to any degree.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7423183]
Amazing jumpers ? I will eagerly await an example of an amazing jumper coming from a ASB mother.[/QUOTE]
My gelding is from an ASB sire, Arabian mother, and is an incredibly talented jumper. Great knees, quick thinking, brave, and quick with his feet. My mare is out of an ASB mother, Arabian sire, and has plenty of dressage talent. My gelding regularly gets mistaken for a TB.
I think OP has every right to seek a horse that isn’t “perfect” but will be perfect for her. If ASB appeal to her then more power to her.
People can breed whatever they want for themselves, if they live with the results. But in a country where most horses go for slaughter, I think breeding experiments should be approached with much caution. Even horses bred with the best chances do not work out some of the time. But like I said, I live in a area with many failed attempts and I thought that point is an important one when considering this. At the very least it is meant to give the OP some ideas about breeding two different types and how people have managed it successfully.
People that do off breed crosses have to be even more knowledgeable than breeders who follow the recipe if they are to be successful. I have tons of respect for those that can pull it off. Most people can’t.
Stoicfish that’s a good point re the ethics of breeding in general.
ut if we take it to its logical conclusion we shouldn’t purpose breed at all, we should scour the backyards and auction houses for all those oops babies and try to make some use of them. That won’t happen and get us the known athletic propensities that good breeders are working for.
Another valid point about taking a particular family line in one breed and doing a nick into another breed - you just won’t have the length of experience to select and compare a good cross. There are successful crosses out there, so if I were to go about it I’d be searching out the Harry Callahans and noting their pedigrees. I’d do some research on those Trak studs that outcross to ASB mares and see how their produce are performing.
I have this nice enough cross but my trainer and I were both stymied by the loss of his paperwork, there’s no way to attach his good qualities to his sire line because we just don’t know it, and also no way for her to look at him and say he’s a so and so baby and his training may take longer or he may respond well to this method versus that method.
It is very complex when done with care.
Stoicfish that’s a good point re the ethics of breeding in general.
ut if we take it to its logical conclusion we shouldn’t purpose breed at all, we should scour the backyards and auction houses for all those oops babies and try to make some use of them. That won’t happen and get us the known athletic propensities that good breeders are working for.
I actually strongly disagree with this and it is not the logical conclusion. That would be rewarding people that are not being responsible, penalizing people that breed good quality horses responsibly and diminish the overall health and quality of horses. But I know what your saying… 
The logical conclusion of reducing unwanted horses is to not encourage people to breed irresponsible, not to provide a market for the results.
To discourage people breeding horses that do not have a specific job for their horse and a product that is not in demand or has a existing market. AKA go on line and find what is available and what it is selling for.
If I was the OP, I would use a Dutch Harness stallion that was known for being versatile. Then she would have a registry and the horse would have more than one market. But would probably be able to do sport to the extent she was hoping for.
http://www.kwpn.org/2014/02/manno-son-graaf-kelly-harness-horse-champion/
I have seen this selection in person and they are really amazing horses, with similar types to ASB and they have some of the talents for dressage.
nice mare:
http://www.horseclicks.com/must-go-reasonable-offers-considered-beautiful-bla/horses/590905
There are also many good breeders in N Carolina, and you are not far from Kentucky either.
Contacting farms standing stallions in states near yours and explaining your wants should get you a few good leads. A ‘forward-headed’, big, sound mare that isn’t producing ‘show horses’ will usually be available reasonably.
Stoic–I think what she is after is more the brain of the ASB. Which in general is MUCH more laid back and easy than that of many Dutch Harness horses. But I do agree that in body type and movement, there are similar.
But I do agree with you in that some (certainly not all) WBs are such a mix you really don’t know what you are going to get. (Unlike what it seems like with many Trak. Stallions–who seem to really stamp their get with a very consistent type). I do think in that sense, there are lines in the ABS that produce a more consistent sport type. Just as there are lines in the Morgan (more government bred) that produce a sport type as opposed to the more park type.
The issue is knowing and finding that family type. Then pairing it with the right cross. Preferably one that also throws a consistent type.
[QUOTE=Megaladon;7425641]
Were not ASBs used at one time in Dutch breeding? I seem to recall an article written about a horse named “(something’s) Playboy” and when he got to the Netherlands his name was changed because play (spelled different) means toilet in Dutch.[/QUOTE]
Holland’s Golden Boy or Golden Playboy: http://www.pinterest.com/pin/216665432047052035/
FWIW whoever it was that scoffed at Saddlebreds as jumpers is either too young to remember, or if older has forgotten that many of the best jumpers in the Chicago region in the 1950’s and 1960’s were Saddlebreds, passed of as T’breds. Of course there is a lot of T’bred influence (plus common progenitors of Morgan and Standardbred) in the history of the Saddlebred, so that is not farfetched at all.
[QUOTE=ReSomething;7425737]
Stoicfish that’s a good point re the ethics of breeding in general.
ut if we take it to its logical conclusion we shouldn’t purpose breed at all, we should scour the backyards and auction houses for all those oops babies and try to make some use of them. That won’t happen and get us the known athletic propensities that good breeders are working for.
Another valid point about taking a particular family line in one breed and doing a nick into another breed - you just won’t have the length of experience to select and compare a good cross. There are successful crosses out there, so if I were to go about it I’d be searching out the Harry Callahans and noting their pedigrees. I’d do some research on those Trak studs that outcross to ASB mares and see how their produce are performing.
I have this nice enough cross but my trainer and I were both stymied by the loss of his paperwork, there’s no way to attach his good qualities to his sire line because we just don’t know it, and also no way for her to look at him and say he’s a so and so baby and his training may take longer or he may respond well to this method versus that method.
It is very complex when done with care.[/QUOTE]
Harry, like most Saddlebreds, was not bred to be a Grand prix dressage horse. But he was bred to be very trainable, no matter what discipline he was put into.
Harry Callahan was sired by a number one ranked sire of show horses, Supreme Heir, who was by the number one ranked sire…Supreme Sultan, and out of one of the finest Stonewall Supreme broodmare daughters ever, Supreme Airs, who produced another fine sire in Foxfire’s Prophet. Supreme Airs daughters produced the great sires Harlem Globetrotter and Yorktown Magic, and dam line granddaughters produced sires Top Gun, Castle Bravo, and Deep Blue.
Stonewall Supreme also sired Supreme’s Casindra, dam of sires Sultan’s Great Day and Casindra Sultan; and the broodmare Dixie Duchess, dam of Belle Elegant and Glenview Radiance.
Through other daughters he is grandsire of sires Penny’s Superior Stonewall, Rare Treasure, Lord O’Shea, Epcot Center, Blackberry Winter, The Chairman of the Board, Chief Kenyatta.
As a sire of sires: Stonewall Starfire went to South Africa, Jay O’lee, Supreme Rights and Supreme Hi-lite remained stateside.
Harry Callahan’s dam’s sire was The New York Times, a black son of the handsome New Yorker by the great Yorktown, son of Wing Commander. The New York Times sired sires Time out for Lovin’, Doing New York, and Waverly Hall. One of his daughters is the dam of the sire Undulata’s Nutcracker.
Another daughter of The New York Times: the dam of the mare linked to in my above post -whose sire is a Belle Elegant (see above) son.
Saddlebreds are linebred or closer and have been for over a century. It is very easy to get close relatives to the greats of today and the prepotence is marked.
Whatever mare you acquire, be sure you would like her to produce another in her own image, as most likely, she will.
Wow. That may be the rudest comment I have ever seen on this forum. Considering some of the cat fights over the years, that is really saying something. FYI, there is more than one sport out there. I bred for racing which may be the sportiest of them all without a warmblood in sight. Maybe if we were open to ideas other than the one already firmly cemented in our head, this would be a better place.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7423459]
I said it before…this is a sport horse breeding forum. I go sporthorse shows all over the world and have never seen a Saddlebred in them.
Still waiting for the examples of “amazing” jumpers or dressage horses coming from ASB mothers.
To the poster who asked why I come to this board. The answer is that I keep hoping that some of the true horsemen and breeders may have returned but I see my effort is futile.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=ReSomething;7425620]
Are Trakehners officially WB? There are a lot of ASB crosses into them.[/QUOTE]
Where did you get that there are a lot ASB crosses into Trakehners? Trakehners are the strictest of the European style warmblood registries as far as what they accept for breeding. Their breeding books are pretty much limited to approved Trakehners, TBs, Arabians, Anglo-Arabians, and Shagya). Offspring from anything else gets lesser papers, will be considered a part-bred, and it and its offspring would not be considered for Trakehner breeding approval. (Trakehner peeps, please correct me if I am wrong.)
Some registries have lower books where they will place mares that don’t meet the pedigree requirements for upper books. Other registries won’t accept those mares at all. Most of them won’t accept the offspring of those mares for full breeding approval, no matter who the sire is.
[QUOTE=Megaladon;7425641]
Were not ASBs used at one time in Dutch breeding? I seem to recall an article written about a horse named “(something’s) Playboy” and when he got to the Netherlands his name was changed because play (spelled different) means toilet in Dutch.[/QUOTE]
That story just keeps getting refloated. :sigh:
The Dutch at one time imported two ASB stallions to be used on a trial basis for their HARNESS HORSE book. One stallion was eliminated very quickly from the breeding books, and the other eliminated after evaluation of his first foal crops. He was not producing consistent resultants on a par with the offspring of full DHH (Dutch Harness Horse) stallions, and the desired qualities he was injecting were outweighed by the negative qualities.
Also note that the stallions were never approved for the RIDING HORSE books.
As for Bayhawk, while his delivery certainly could use some polish, I can see where he is coming from. He breeds for the very top of sport, and he is affiliated with a top, top European WB registry with a long and proud tradition of producing jumping horses for the international big rings. For him, using a horse from a breeding population that has traditionally not been bred for show jumping, would be a huge, huge step backwards. While there have been some references on this thread to ASBs and ASB crosses achieving some success in various sport horse disciplines, I am not sure there is a single example of one who was/is consistently successful in the international show jumping arena.
I can see, though, where someone who is not aiming for a top international candidate might be attracted to an ASB or ASB cross, esp. if breeding for dressage. They are pretty, they have a very uphill build, they have fancy gaits, and many have fairly good ammie temperaments - or at least, not hotter than “hot” warmbloods. The negative traits I have seen are that they seem to be somewhat rigid and stiff in the topline, are “leg-movers”, don’t have a huge amount of sit and carry needed for the upper levels, and I have noted a rather “dead” mouth in more than a few.
That said, if someone wants to breed ASB mares to WB stallions - go for it. They may get exactly what they want - a nice, ammie type horse.
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