[QUOTE=SmartAlex;7431915]
It is difference of opinion that makes horse races.
And by the way, that is the nicest thing you’ve said so far. Right now I sort of like you :eek:[/QUOTE]
Well , I appreciate that ! Surely you know my frustration is not aimed at the horse ?
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7431926]
Well , I appreciate that ! Surely you know my frustration is not aimed at the horse ?[/QUOTE]
I do. And surely you know my frustration with you was not aimed at your expertise in breeding, nor your taste in sport horses but the appearance that your opinion was the discussion of using Saddlebred blood had no place on this forum.
So what was a simple question about where to shop for an off brand sort of breed that could have been answered in a couple of posts and faded to page three in a day has become a stimulating discussion of experimental breeding and the wisdom of breeding anything in this economy. Make no mistake, the women who love Saddlebreds are the nuttiest horsewenches there are (I say this as one of you so Mary, Sil, Classy, Julie et.al. don’t be upset) and will waste no opportunity to point out that our horses built America and are the opitome of versatility. In fact, I’m thinking of teaching mine to paint, and sweep the floor.
ETA: OK it’s official. I should not have had that second glass of wine. TIme to log out :o
[QUOTE=SmartAlex;7431949]
I do. And surely you know my frustration with you was not aimed at your expertise in breeding, nor your taste in sport horses but the appearance that your opinion was the discussion of using Saddlebred blood had no place on this forum.
So what was a simple question about where to shop for an off brand sort of breed that could have been answered in a couple of posts and faded to page three in a day has become a stimulating discussion of experimental breeding and the wisdom of breeding anything in this economy. Make no mistake, the women who love Saddlebreds are the nuttiest horsewenches there are (I say this as one of you so Mary, Sil, Classy, Julie et.al. don’t be upset) and will waste no opportunity to point out that our horses built America and are the opitome of versatility. In fact, I’m thinking of teaching mine to paint, and sweep the floor.
ETA: OK it’s official. I should not have had that second glass of wine. TIme to log out :o[/QUOTE]
Well , yeah…I just have never linked sporthorse breeding with Saddlebreds. The two just don’t go hand in hand.
Let me know when you get that training done…I need some painting and sweeping done around here as well !
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7431920]
Excuse me ?!!! I don’t have cast off foals. Every foal I produce will have 5 generations in a row of international competitors and they will have a job.
I decide what I need to keep for future breeding and all the rest are for sale and for all the same price.
I breed sporthorses and these words I live by…“breed the best and ride the rest”…a philosophy a few of you should take up.[/QUOTE]
Pump the brakes, you’ll give yourself an ulcer. I was talking about foals you deemed not breeding quality and to be sold.
And what price might those foals be for sale for? Probably more than your average horse owner can afford. I’d also like to add that I do not need or want a horse with 5 generations of showjumpers. So no matter the cost, I won’t be knocking on your farm’s door. You breed what is the best in your opinion, as shall I.
Hope those links etc help Fuzz 
[QUOTE=silvia;7431969]
Hope those links etc help Fuzz :)[/QUOTE]
They did, thank you! It seems that most of the lines I like are pretty rare, but they may just not be readily available or highly marketed on the web. Did you import your girls? Did you see the in person before you purchased them?
[QUOTE=fizzyfuzzybuzzy;7431985]
They did, thank you! It seems that most of the lines I like are pretty rare, but they may just not be readily available or highly marketed on the web. Did you import your girls? Did you see the in person before you purchased them?[/QUOTE]
Everything we have is bred here from imported lines which is why I thought I would share. The sires are standing in the USA and are relatively popular. The dams tend to come from 5-gaited stock lines, heavier and more solid. They’re findable.
If you go hunting and toss up a couple you like the Saddlebred breeders can probably tell you what those lines produce, that might help you in your hunt
[QUOTE=fizzyfuzzybuzzy;7431963]
Pump the brakes, you’ll give yourself an ulcer. I was talking about foals you deemed not breeding quality and to be sold.
And what price might those foals be for sale for? Probably more than your average horse owner can afford. I’d also like to add that I do not need or want a horse with 5 generations of showjumpers. So no matter the cost, I won’t be knocking on your farm’s door. You breed what is the best in your opinion, as shall I.[/QUOTE]
I am not catering to the “average horse owner” and my foals are no more expensive than any other good breeder in this country.
I sell fillies all the time that are certainly top breeding quality. I often sell my best if I don’t need them. Maybe the mother is still young. Maybe I have sisters. Maybe I just don’t want to raise another filly right now for 3 more years. I just sold a young mare last year that has had 3 foals. All 3 were the highest scoring or tied for the highest scoring in the Nation. One of those foals was approved as a Stallion. I kept a filly for breeding last year that was not the best one I had , but she was the one that I needed. So like I said before , I don’t have “cast off foals” .
No need for you to worry what my foals cost as they are not bred for an “average horse owner”. They are bred for the sporting equestrian.
[QUOTE=Tradewind;7431710]
Interesting that ASB enthusiasts continue to refer to the “good ol’ days” when ASBs had a stronger presence in the jumper ring. I know nothing about the history of the breed so I cannot comment. However, I’m interested in what these breeders think of breeding these crosses in terms of moving FORWARD, not referring back to 40-50 years ago when the breed was more prevalent in mainstream sport.
Look at the type of event horse Bruce Davidson and Richard Meade were riding in the 70s; those horses would never be successful in eventing today. The sport has changed: TBs are still present, but the warmblood influence is substantial. Dressage and jumping standards have increased; the TBs that are internationally competitive are unique and purpose-bred (think Parklane Hawk, Shaabrak etc.) as they must compete with the event horses whose breeding is heavily influenced by warmbloods.
If ASBs were successful back in the day in disciplines such as show jumping but are no longer seen at mid to upper levels, why is this? Is it truly that jumper breeders have discounted a breed that can contribute some value because of the elitist view that warmblood breeds are best, or are ASB breeders thinking too much in the past and not being realistic about the direction the Olympic disciplines are moving in? Not trying to be snarky; genuinely interested in some opinions.[/QUOTE]
I believe that todays ASBs lack the scope necessary to do the big jumper classes of today. They also lack the scope to do the BIG event courses. Then again, so do most horses. They can do the lower level stuff, and do it well.
Any horse can do low level anything…how is that a selling feature or a reason to breed??
Please, let’s make something clear - not everyone wants a purebred Warmblood.
Warmbloods are not the only sporthorse breed.
Please continue.
Chesterfield is interesting and an example of the use of ASB in sport horse breeding. She has a good FEI record.
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/664213
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWAIHXqgKog
Landino has produced a few upper level jumpers too and there are others that have made the upper levels from these bloodlines.
Due to the mare base that Cream On Top has access too there are likely to be quite a few more based in Europe that make the grade in the future as well.
[QUOTE=silvia;7432040]
Everything we have is bred here from imported lines which is why I thought I would share. The sires are standing in the USA and are relatively popular. The dams tend to come from 5-gaited stock lines, heavier and more solid. They’re findable.
If you go hunting and toss up a couple you like the Saddlebred breeders can probably tell you what those lines produce, that might help you in your hunt :)[/QUOTE]
Thank you for keeping me on tracking and helping me filter the “noise”. This is the mare that I consistently drool over – http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/sassy+county She produces AMAZING athletes.
I, of course, love this mare – http://modernsporthorses.com/maggie.html
I love love love Borealis – http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/support-files/borealis.pdf
[QUOTE=Donella;7432094]
Any horse can do low level anything…how is that a selling feature or a reason to breed??[/QUOTE]
Quite simply, ASBs excel in dressage. Grand Prix jumpers at the highest levels? I do not think as much. As stated, how many of you have bred those horses? You can aspire to that, and I know that there are ASBs who can do it out there, but generally speaking, they’d be the exceptions. You think that because you are breeding some horses who happen to be warmbloods that you are part of that ride, and chances are, you aren’t.
The folks who are so hard pressed to prove the superiority of whatever they are breeding need to get clear with what they are actually producing. Lower level horses, or horses who will never compete beyond that point. And, your warmbloods have HUGE advantage in proving all of your points- the trainers who have found it profitable to work/train/sell them get them out to be seen. BUT, that doesn’t make them all exceptional, does it? You are still looking for that needle in haystack.
Bayhawk I would just like to throw something out there…You say that you breed for the highest levels then anything that didn’t meet that standard would be a “cast off” or a cull, yes it might have a job but it still isn’t what you’re goal was. The EU has been doing this for years by sending us their “showjumping failure” as hunters for us.
I just would like to throw out there that I personally believe that one should breed to improve the purpose of the breed. To say that WBs couldn’t stand any improvement is a lie and you all know it. No horse is perfect and if one is breeding they should be working to make it better.
Now with all that being said the Dutch have the right idea when it comes to their KNPV breeding. Their philosophy is we don’t care what it looks like but as long as it does the job to a high level its ok with us. Now to get titled aka “inspected/approved” is very hard. Now mind you they started this program it was back in the day, but they used dogs like collies, mals, German shepherds and even the bully breeds. Also keep in mind that they had dogs that didn’t meet the standard and they were culled, they did not let kennel blindness get in their way.
My point is if one does through research and makes an educated decision and is prepared to deal with a substandard foal, then guess what she is doing nothing that hasn’t been done in the past.
[QUOTE=fizzyfuzzybuzzy;7432157]
Thank you for keeping me on tracking and helping me filter the “noise”. This is the mare that I consistently drool over – http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/sassy+county She produces AMAZING athletes.
I, of course, love this mare – http://modernsporthorses.com/maggie.html
I love love love Borealis – http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/support-files/borealis.pdf[/QUOTE]
I noticed Gold Venture Farm are offering an in utero sale from Sassy County x Saint Sandro - maybe this could be an option?
I love Borealis as well, it was a very sad day when we lost his dam before we could import her.
I am no expert in Saddlebreds, but there IS a reason so many breeders are choosing to crossbreed Warmbloods. A few posters in this thread have made comments about the mind - the Warmblood is bred to be a supreme athlete, to be sure! But like any supreme athlete, they are a bit of a diva. Many are either (a) stubborn or (b) hot and reactive. And sometimes a and b! So for the average rider, they are not an easy or fun ride. How may average riders (be they AA or lower level Trainer) can bring along an athletic WB without the help of a better rider? Of course the flip side to that - more WBs are in pro training then most other breeds, which helps them up the levels.
It is kind of like watching the Olympics -so may of the top athletes are a bit “lacking in social graces”.
The average rider wants a horse they can ride on their own - in most cases, budget restrictions dictate that they buy a horse that doesn’t require full time training. Hence the desire to crossbreed. And the popularity of USDF’s All Breeds program!
Add to that - the innate soundness of some breeds that just doesn’t translate to the WB. I can’t tell you how many people I know who have a WB and another horse - and consistently, it is the WB who is lame or off. Torn suspensory, pedalostitis, meniscus strain, SI strain, kissing spine, the list goes on and on and on. And as a small-time breeder of WB CROSSES, I get the story from about half the people who contact me - I want a cross, my WB isn’t sound. And - I’m tired of fighting with my WB.
I have great respect for the WBs and the trainers and riders who bring out the best in them, but I also desire a horse who is just more into people, who has a desire to please, who is sensitive but safe. And who stays sound.
I also recognize that MOST RIDERS are not headed for the top - they are middle income (and often middle age) AAs, lower level Pros, Juniors without wealthy parents - and they want a horse they can ride, have fun on, compete locally and regionally, perhaps make it to the mid levels or dip their toes into FEI someday. And they don’t have the big $ to buy the top quality WBs - and the “culls” are culls for a reason - they are stubborn, or difficult, or they can’t move, or they are lame. And that is not what your average rider wants or needs, and that is why some breeders are cross breeding. I don’t breed for jumpers, so I can’t really comment on that specific discipline, although some of my crosses are jumping and eventing, and doing quite well.
I consider “quite well”, as a young horse that is in the top 3 in regional and local competitions, top 10 regional championships. They are beating WBs, and clinicians are commenting very favorably on their athleticism, honesty, and work ethic. Their riders love them. I consider that a successful breeding program. I’m not breeding for the Olympics. I do use bloodlines that are capable of upper level work - there is a difference between a horse who can do GP and a horse who can compete at WC, WEG, Olympics. And competitive at shows - any horse can do lower levels, but not any horse can be competitive. And there is a huge difference in the rider who can train and compete that way too!
My point - educated cross breeding is not a bad thing. Breeding for the average rider is not a bad thing. But - having said that - you must be educated, you must understand bloodlines and genetics, and you must be willing to put the money and time into raising these babies correctly. The average rider does not buy a foal - they buy a horse who has 6 months to 2 years of training - which means you commit to getting your horses started under saddle and going well. It is not a commitment to enter into without thinking about the long term side of it.
OP - COTH Breeders Forum has always been focused on Euro lineage WBs - I seldom post here because of people like Bayhawk - the lack of common courtesy and respect is very sad. There are some wonderful knowledgeable people on this board, but the message delivery isn’t always so great, especially when some of the arrogance starts to spout. And it is even easier to be so unpleasant when posters don’t use a real name and have a weblink to people know who the person is. And it is a “breed” biased forum, which is why you don’t see many non-WB people active here. Yes, there are plenty of people who are breeding non-WB (or WB cross) sport horses, but they tend to avoid a forum where their results are always going to be called “inferior”.
[QUOTE=Donella;7432094]
Any horse can do low level anything…how is that a selling feature or a reason to breed??[/QUOTE]
No. As with any breeding endeavor, the individuals should be exceptional. Even for ammies. You have to define exceptional, but for myself (definitely an ammy) I want something with an excellent mind and temperment, sound, three good to beautiful gaits, and the ability to jump well over 4’ with ease and a lot of scope. I haven’t jumped in years but when I did I wanted a horse that could easily get me out of trouble. An “off breed” prospect doesn’t need to be expensive, but exceptional. The difficulty is in finding one.
My point - educated cross breeding is not a bad thing. Breeding for the average rider is not a bad thing. But - having said that - you must be educated, you must understand bloodlines and genetics, and you must be willing to put the money and time into raising these babies correctly. The average rider does not buy a foal - they buy a horse who has 6 months to 2 years of training - which means you commit to getting your horses started under saddle and going well. It is not a commitment to enter into without thinking about the long term side of it.
BRAVO and thank you for stating what many of us do believe in and follow and aren’t exactly impoverished for doing it. Nor are we adding to the equine over population problem.
As a rider, I want sane and fun. As a breeder, I want athletic, versatile, dependable and straight forward to train. As a competitor I want a partner that willingly helps me attain my goals and graciously gives me the opportunity to become a better rider. As a veterinarian, I want easy keeping, long-term soundness. As an amateur who works full-time and who has dabbled in the warmblood world, I have chosen to stay away from such because I need mounts who can fit my lifestyle and wallet. The warmblood mantra and breeding for the olympics has it’s place; but, there is a whole 'nuther market and ‘world’ out there. If anything should have demonstrated that it should have been the attendance at our first National Dressage finals.
My point - educated cross breeding is not a bad thing. Breeding for the average rider is not a bad thing. But - having said that - you must be educated, you must understand bloodlines and genetics, and you must be willing to put the money and time into raising these babies correctly. The average rider does not buy a foal - they buy a horse who has 6 months to 2 years of training - which means you commit to getting your horses started under saddle and going well. It is not a commitment to enter into without thinking about the long term side of it.
This is the responsible version.
I have Wb’s and non WB’s and I agree that Wb’s are not for everyone. Really agree.
I also have enough respect for the other breeds that I don’t think you need to add a WB to get a good horse as many other breeds are good already. Sometimes a cross can work out well when people with more knowledge than the average breeder does it and they are willing to put a lot of time and money into their decision. But most of the time, these crosses are done with the simplistic idea that you will get the best of both worlds on one try by someone that has little breeding knowledge…and it doesn’t work out. This is the case 9.7 times out of ten.
Wb’s are not a homologous group, and even WB breeders can get a lot of variation in results. It isn’t that I don’t think ASB are not good enough to cross with a WB, I think they are good enough without a cross for the OP’s purpose but if she wants to breed them, then at least start with a more similar type stallion for her new mare to see the results. Someone posted some nice ASB pictures. Good looking horses but the genotype is going to be very dissimilar to those of a Wb even if the phenotype has a resemblance.
F1 crosses with Tb’s have varied results and usually it is the F2-F3 that the influence has the most value. Most people are not willing to take on that type of endeavored to see if it truly is a valuable addition of blood (for all those suggesting that Wb’s need improvement blood). And most breeds will not support that with registration.
You can use a NA Wb registry to do that but like I said, that experiment has taken place, starting with an non Wb mare and adding Wb. Trust me. This has been done to death and the results are that the offspring are not that successful as a group. There is some that are very nice but they are always undervalued because of their pedigree when they are young. There are more that are hot and short, or fine boned and big bodied, huge head and short. Some are athletic but they are a hard sell. And the stud fee, breeding and food all costs the same. Most of these breeders just get full Wb mares as they realize the other way didn’t turn out financially like they thought.
As the poster above pointed out, unless you are willing to put the time and money into your experiment, you are left with a devalued horse most of the time. Research sales and auctions if you do not believe me.
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