[QUOTE=ASBJumper;7430188]
Yes, lovely - I like his grandsire even better. Fantastic type.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-g2q2hqDaaaE/UZr5w6KQxbI/AAAAAAAAArg/bxhjYAT7mjg/s1600/Highland+Denmark+%232.jpg[/QUOTE]
Oh my ASB, I have never seen this horse. Nice, thank you. The temperament of the Highland Dale horse was so perfect.
I have a registered mare. Old bloodlines. Looks like a WB. Probably large heart carrier or has the X-factor. I’ve known nearly every horse in her 4 generation pedigree.
[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;7432358]
I am no expert in Saddlebreds, but there IS a reason so many breeders are choosing to crossbreed Warmbloods. A few posters in this thread have made comments about the mind - the Warmblood is bred to be a supreme athlete, to be sure! But like any supreme athlete, they are a bit of a diva. Many are either (a) stubborn or (b) hot and reactive. And sometimes a and b! So for the average rider, they are not an easy or fun ride. How may average riders (be they AA or lower level Trainer) can bring along an athletic WB without the help of a better rider? Of course the flip side to that - more WBs are in pro training then most other breeds, which helps them up the levels.
It is kind of like watching the Olympics -so may of the top athletes are a bit “lacking in social graces”.
The average rider wants a horse they can ride on their own - in most cases, budget restrictions dictate that they buy a horse that doesn’t require full time training. Hence the desire to crossbreed. And the popularity of USDF’s All Breeds program!
Add to that - the innate soundness of some breeds that just doesn’t translate to the WB. I can’t tell you how many people I know who have a WB and another horse - and consistently, it is the WB who is lame or off. Torn suspensory, pedalostitis, meniscus strain, SI strain, kissing spine, the list goes on and on and on. And as a small-time breeder of WB CROSSES, I get the story from about half the people who contact me - I want a cross, my WB isn’t sound. And - I’m tired of fighting with my WB.
I have great respect for the WBs and the trainers and riders who bring out the best in them, but I also desire a horse who is just more into people, who has a desire to please, who is sensitive but safe. And who stays sound.
I also recognize that MOST RIDERS are not headed for the top - they are middle income (and often middle age) AAs, lower level Pros, Juniors without wealthy parents - and they want a horse they can ride, have fun on, compete locally and regionally, perhaps make it to the mid levels or dip their toes into FEI someday. And they don’t have the big $ to buy the top quality WBs - and the “culls” are culls for a reason - they are stubborn, or difficult, or they can’t move, or they are lame. And that is not what your average rider wants or needs, and that is why some breeders are cross breeding. I don’t breed for jumpers, so I can’t really comment on that specific discipline, although some of my crosses are jumping and eventing, and doing quite well.
I consider “quite well”, as a young horse that is in the top 3 in regional and local competitions, top 10 regional championships. They are beating WBs, and clinicians are commenting very favorably on their athleticism, honesty, and work ethic. Their riders love them. I consider that a successful breeding program. I’m not breeding for the Olympics. I do use bloodlines that are capable of upper level work - there is a difference between a horse who can do GP and a horse who can compete at WC, WEG, Olympics. And competitive at shows - any horse can do lower levels, but not any horse can be competitive. And there is a huge difference in the rider who can train and compete that way too!
My point - educated cross breeding is not a bad thing. Breeding for the average rider is not a bad thing. But - having said that - you must be educated, you must understand bloodlines and genetics, and you must be willing to put the money and time into raising these babies correctly. The average rider does not buy a foal - they buy a horse who has 6 months to 2 years of training - which means you commit to getting your horses started under saddle and going well. It is not a commitment to enter into without thinking about the long term side of it.
OP - COTH Breeders Forum has always been focused on Euro lineage WBs - I seldom post here because of people like Bayhawk - the lack of common courtesy and respect is very sad. There are some wonderful knowledgeable people on this board, but the message delivery isn’t always so great, especially when some of the arrogance starts to spout. And it is even easier to be so unpleasant when posters don’t use a real name and have a weblink to people know who the person is. And it is a “breed” biased forum, which is why you don’t see many non-WB people active here. Yes, there are plenty of people who are breeding non-WB (or WB cross) sport horses, but they tend to avoid a forum where their results are always going to be called “inferior”.[/QUOTE]
I wanted to pop in and say I thought this post was very well written.
OP, glad you like Maggie - if you purchase an in-utero you have to share. That mare looks superb.
ILU so much for this post! You said exactly what I was thinking and couldn’t organize my thoughts quite so articulately!
[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;7432358]
I am no expert in Saddlebreds, but there IS a reason so many breeders are choosing to crossbreed Warmbloods. A few posters in this thread have made comments about the mind - the Warmblood is bred to be a supreme athlete, to be sure! But like any supreme athlete, they are a bit of a diva. Many are either (a) stubborn or (b) hot and reactive. And sometimes a and b! So for the average rider, they are not an easy or fun ride. How may average riders (be they AA or lower level Trainer) can bring along an athletic WB without the help of a better rider? Of course the flip side to that - more WBs are in pro training then most other breeds, which helps them up the levels.
It is kind of like watching the Olympics -so may of the top athletes are a bit “lacking in social graces”.
The average rider wants a horse they can ride on their own - in most cases, budget restrictions dictate that they buy a horse that doesn’t require full time training. Hence the desire to crossbreed. And the popularity of USDF’s All Breeds program!
Add to that - the innate soundness of some breeds that just doesn’t translate to the WB. I can’t tell you how many people I know who have a WB and another horse - and consistently, it is the WB who is lame or off. Torn suspensory, pedalostitis, meniscus strain, SI strain, kissing spine, the list goes on and on and on. And as a small-time breeder of WB CROSSES, I get the story from about half the people who contact me - I want a cross, my WB isn’t sound. And - I’m tired of fighting with my WB.
I have great respect for the WBs and the trainers and riders who bring out the best in them, but I also desire a horse who is just more into people, who has a desire to please, who is sensitive but safe. And who stays sound.
I also recognize that MOST RIDERS are not headed for the top - they are middle income (and often middle age) AAs, lower level Pros, Juniors without wealthy parents - and they want a horse they can ride, have fun on, compete locally and regionally, perhaps make it to the mid levels or dip their toes into FEI someday. And they don’t have the big $ to buy the top quality WBs - and the “culls” are culls for a reason - they are stubborn, or difficult, or they can’t move, or they are lame. And that is not what your average rider wants or needs, and that is why some breeders are cross breeding. I don’t breed for jumpers, so I can’t really comment on that specific discipline, although some of my crosses are jumping and eventing, and doing quite well.
I consider “quite well”, as a young horse that is in the top 3 in regional and local competitions, top 10 regional championships. They are beating WBs, and clinicians are commenting very favorably on their athleticism, honesty, and work ethic. Their riders love them. I consider that a successful breeding program. I’m not breeding for the Olympics. I do use bloodlines that are capable of upper level work - there is a difference between a horse who can do GP and a horse who can compete at WC, WEG, Olympics. And competitive at shows - any horse can do lower levels, but not any horse can be competitive. And there is a huge difference in the rider who can train and compete that way too!
My point - educated cross breeding is not a bad thing. Breeding for the average rider is not a bad thing. But - having said that - you must be educated, you must understand bloodlines and genetics, and you must be willing to put the money and time into raising these babies correctly. The average rider does not buy a foal - they buy a horse who has 6 months to 2 years of training - which means you commit to getting your horses started under saddle and going well. It is not a commitment to enter into without thinking about the long term side of it.
OP - COTH Breeders Forum has always been focused on Euro lineage WBs - I seldom post here because of people like Bayhawk - the lack of common courtesy and respect is very sad. There are some wonderful knowledgeable people on this board, but the message delivery isn’t always so great, especially when some of the arrogance starts to spout. And it is even easier to be so unpleasant when posters don’t use a real name and have a weblink to people know who the person is. And it is a “breed” biased forum, which is why you don’t see many non-WB people active here. Yes, there are plenty of people who are breeding non-WB (or WB cross) sport horses, but they tend to avoid a forum where their results are always going to be called “inferior”.[/QUOTE]
OP, you haven’t answered the question several of us posed. Are you doing this to start a breeding program for market? Because how much $$ do you think you are going to make with just one mare?
Or are you breeding this foal for yourself? If this is the answer, what is your problem with just buying a horse already on the ground? ASB, ASB/WB cross, Georgian Grande…whatever. Then you KNOW what you will be getting.
Honestly, I speak from experience. I started my WB program 17yrs ago (a blink in time for most breeders) with ONE mare. The original intent was to produce a horse for myself I could never afford to buy. Well, as it turned out, I got “hooked” on breeding and the market was good enough to at least break even.
And that’s a good thing, because for what I’ve spent, I could have bought anything short of Totalis over the last years!!
Now, I am on my 2nd generation of homebreds (luckily that 1st mare gave me nothing but fillies and THOSE fillies have given me mostly fillies…if they’d all had only colts I’d have been screwed.). The G2 homebred fillies are proving to be very excellent quality; winners of their foal inspections, in the top 10 of the nation for fillies inspected. The oldest, now coming 3, just sold to an upper level dressage pro and will be aimed towards the 5-6 yr old YHC.
The youngest, born in 2013, tied for Reserve Champion filly for her registry at only 2.5 mos of age.
But I have spent 10’s of THOUSANDS of dollars producing them…and I started with a 100% Hanoverian mare with solid, proven dressage lines, and stayed within breed/type.
So seriously, you should do the math: if you buy a mare for even a paltry $2-3000, pay for a breeding fee to a NICE WB stallion for $1000-1500 (plus vet fees/collection fees/shipping fees) for AI & such, $1000 plus feeding and caring for the mare for 11 mos. $1500-2000 (minimum) you have a MINIMUM of $5500 into the foal by the time it hits the ground.
And that doesn’t include possible issues like abortion, placentitis, dummy foals, mare not catching on the first cycle, so MORE collection costs, shipping fees, vet bills, etc. etc.
All that, and you could possibly get a “product” that is NOTHING like what you wanted…or like ANYBODY wanted.
This has nothing to do with the breed or the cross or anything…these are just basic breeding economics.
And if you are thinking to yourself…“Ah, but I am going to get FREE mare and breeding her to the closest, cheapest WB stallion I can find…” well, you are one of those breeders most likely to contribute to the slaughter issue.
So why breed your own. Why not just buy a GG? And I’m not asking to be confrontational at all…I’m simply asking WHY you are committed to doing this breeding?
I think it’s a fair question, don’t you?
[QUOTE=gypsymare;7431684]
They have been. The Georgian Grande.
There is such an incredible amount of misinformation and breed stereotype with regards to the Saddlebred.
The average horse person thinks saddlebred and sees this:
But with correct training and muscling, they look like THIS:
Borealis
Infuriating
James by Gypsy Santana
Abraxis Goldbrand
These are not the freaks of the breed. They are worked like normal sport horses. Not parked out, trained with their heads straight up in the air, tail set or padded.
These horses are so close to looking like a quality modern warmblood to begin with, an outcross is not some outrageous thing destined to produce a fugly.[/QUOTE]
This “breed” was not created using WBs. It was created using ASB, Friesens and various draft horses. A WB is nothing like a Friesen or a draft…although apparently the GG breed registry is not particularly strict about bloodlines…in my search I’ve foung GG breeders using ISH, Gypsy Vanners and some medium-quality WBs.
And the pics you posted are of the successful products…looking around the Net I’ve seen plenty that I certainly would not consider a success.
Anyway for the OP:
http://friesiansincolor.homestead.com/Forsale.html
Take your pick, make payments if you wish, total price at birth is $4500-5500. About the same as it would cost you to put your foal on the ground…and you wouldn’t be stuck with the cost of keeping that mare you originally purchased.
[QUOTE=silvia;7432344]
I noticed Gold Venture Farm are offering an in utero sale from Sassy County x Saint Sandro - maybe this could be an option?
I love Borealis as well, it was a very sad day when we lost his dam before we could import her.[/QUOTE]
While I LOVE her breeding program and what Sassy County produces, I can’t quite afford her foals, even in-utero prices.
Wow, what a loss on Borealis’ dam. I’d even be open to breeding him to a WB or VERY modern draft mare. But the problem with the ASB being the sire is that I could conceivably get an ASB mare approved in a WB registry and the subsequent foals could be registered. Unless it was the draft mare, then I could do a georgian grande registry.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7432776]
OP, you haven’t answered the question several of us posed. Are you doing this to start a breeding program for market? Because how much $$ do you think you are going to make with just one mare?
Or are you breeding this foal for yourself? If this is the answer, what is your problem with just buying a horse already on the ground? ASB, ASB/WB cross, Georgian Grande…whatever. Then you KNOW what you will be getting.
Honestly, I speak from experience. I started my WB program 17yrs ago (a blink in time for most breeders) with ONE mare. The original intent was to produce a horse for myself I could never afford to buy. Well, as it turned out, I got “hooked” on breeding and the market was good enough to at least break even.
And that’s a good thing, because for what I’ve spent, I could have bought anything short of Totalis over the last years!!
Now, I am on my 2nd generation of homebreds (luckily that 1st mare gave me nothing but fillies and THOSE fillies have given me mostly fillies…if they’d all had only colts I’d have been screwed.). The G2 homebred fillies are proving to be very excellent quality; winners of their foal inspections, in the top 10 of the nation for fillies inspected. The oldest, now coming 3, just sold to an upper level dressage pro and will be aimed towards the 5-6 yr old YHC.
The youngest, born in 2013, tied for Reserve Champion filly for her registry at only 2.5 mos of age.
But I have spent 10’s of THOUSANDS of dollars producing them…and I started with a 100% Hanoverian mare with solid, proven dressage lines, and stayed within breed/type.
So seriously, you should do the math: if you buy a mare for even a paltry $2-3000, pay for a breeding fee to a NICE WB stallion for $1000-1500 (plus vet fees/collection fees/shipping fees) for AI & such, $1000 plus feeding and caring for the mare for 11 mos. $1500-2000 (minimum) you have a MINIMUM of $5500 into the foal by the time it hits the ground.
And that doesn’t include possible issues like abortion, placentitis, dummy foals, mare not catching on the first cycle, so MORE collection costs, shipping fees, vet bills, etc. etc.
All that, and you could possibly get a “product” that is NOTHING like what you wanted…or like ANYBODY wanted.
This has nothing to do with the breed or the cross or anything…these are just basic breeding economics.
And if you are thinking to yourself…“Ah, but I am going to get FREE mare and breeding her to the closest, cheapest WB stallion I can find…” well, you are one of those breeders most likely to contribute to the slaughter issue.
So why breed your own. Why not just buy a GG? And I’m not asking to be confrontational at all…I’m simply asking WHY you are committed to doing this breeding?
I think it’s a fair question, don’t you?[/QUOTE]
The reason I did not previously answer this question was because this thread had become a sh*t show and I didn’t want to get caught in the cross fire. But I would start with a GG if I found one that I really liked that I could afford. The one’s I like are not in the $4500-5500 range, more like the $10,00-12,000 range. I can produce the same for half the price, and it would be mainly for me. I would not be selling the foal as a foal, but get it started under saddle and continuing on to show/etc. I am not looking to make money on the venture, I love breeding, raising foals and training young horses. If I eventually broke even, I’d be more than happy. As you said, most of the GG are from mediocre stock (with a few notable exceptions), so I am looking to produce a higher quality for essentially the same price (mare purchase price might be higher, as well as stud fee, but that would only be a minor price increase). I would have the mare costs anyway, as I would only purchase a mare that I would either breed again (provided the foal showed quality) or would be my riding/lesson/husband/guest horse. So I’d be feeding and vetting, and trimming an additional horse anyway. I work in the vet field, so I have access to low cost, high quality vet care. I’m extremely lucky in that.
I am not hoping to breed a horse that will go to the Olympics (although you never know when you’ll get a genetic gift), but I’ve seen not so athletic horses with great brains be nationally competitive in the ULs. And I’ve seen those horses bred out the wazoo (and sold to top trainers for BIG $$$$ as unstarted youngsters) give the trainers and riders the big horsey finger and refuse to do what they were bred for. So it goes both ways.
I wholeheartedly agree with Mystic Oak and exvet on their posts. They said it much better than I could. In my own experience, I’ve ridden with BNTs with horses that cost more than my house. And I’ve been the WS, groom, barn manager that tacked up those $$$$ horses for their wealthy owners (and also tacked up my own horse, a clyde/TB gelding) and have them ask me why I am smiling during my ride! I had more fun on my less talented, less trained, but incredibly sweet and willing draft cross than they did on their EU imports.
If I don’t find an ASB mare that I feel would produce a high quality, sane, healthy, athletic foal for me to raise and show, I would not breed one.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7432824]
Anyway for the OP:
http://friesiansincolor.homestead.com/Forsale.html
Take your pick, make payments if you wish, total price at birth is $4500-5500. About the same as it would cost you to put your foal on the ground…and you wouldn’t be stuck with the cost of keeping that mare you originally purchased.[/QUOTE]
I would love one of their foals, but I am about as far away from WA as you can be and still be in the USA! :lol: It would cost about as much to ship the foal to me as the purchase price! I’d rather spend the money I would spend on shipping on getting one of Golden Venture’s foals.
[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;7432358]
I am no expert in Saddlebreds, but there IS a reason so many breeders are choosing to crossbreed Warmbloods. A few posters in this thread have made comments about the mind - the Warmblood is bred to be a supreme athlete, to be sure! But like any supreme athlete, they are a bit of a diva. Many are either (a) stubborn or (b) hot and reactive. And sometimes a and b! So for the average rider, they are not an easy or fun ride. .[/QUOTE]
Ok, this is 2nd or 3rd time this statement has been made and it’s just sheer nonsense. If you notice, one of the things they grade WBs on is “rideability” and “character.” If you know the pedigree, many of them could be ridden by any bone head who knows how to keep a leg on either side & stay upright.
My Rubinstein granddaughter has had 3 foals by 3 different stallions…the 3rd is still home, but the 1st two were started easily by their middle-aged ammie owners (women, btw) with minimal help from any pros. The 3rd was started this last spring by a far from accomplished rider and after only 6 rides broke 60% at a schooling show in Intro (“9” for wallk).
OTOH my Weltmeyer mare tends to produce, if not pro rides, at least horses that do not suffer fools lightly…a fumbling, ignorant ammie would not do well on them.
Of course you have your Jazz’s & Ferro’s & such, but I would venture to say there are more mellow, “rider-friendly” WBs than not. I have no personal experience with ASB so I can’t compare, but I do have extensive experience with PB Arabs, Akhal Tekes & TBs…and (for the most part…there are ALWAYS exceptions) and I can tell you that WBs are SUPER mellow compared to all these other breeds.
We really must be careful not to make statements that don’t have much validity.
Quite simply, ASBs excel in dressage. Grand Prix jumpers at the highest levels? I do not think as much. As stated, how many of you have bred those horses? You can aspire to that, and I know that there are ASBs who can do it out there, but generally speaking, they’d be the exceptions. You think that because you are breeding some horses who happen to be warmbloods that you are part of that ride, and chances are, you aren’t.
ASB’s do not “excel” in dressage. Far from it.
Since you asked, I have only been breeding warmbloods for dressage for the last six years, so my breeding program is in it’s infancy. But I will say that my breeding goals consist of a lot more than to produce a horse that can hopefully do low level sport and look pretty.
I still have a LONG way to go before my breeding goals have a chance to be realized but I hope I am on the right track. So far only two of the horses I bred are at a point where they can be fairly evaluated. The first horse from my breeding program was presented to the Hanoverian verband this year. She scored an average of 8.14 and her scores for the dressage part of the test were 8.5, 8, 8, 9, 9. That is from Dr. Ludwig Christmann and Dr. Brockmann, director of Celle stud. The test rider is a GP rider at Celle and he gave her a 9 for rideability. She was named best Canadian Hanoverian mare and was also winner of the prize for highest MPT score in Canada. This is the first mare we have had at an age to performance test. Her youngster sister was also winner of her class at Spruce and scored an overall 8. She will do her MPT next year and I am fairly confident she will outdo her older sister.
Dr. Ulf Moller sat on my older mare and told me that the work would come really easily for her. He should know. The individual that rides my five year old spent some of last year riding horses for Hof Kasselmann, a really top sales barn in Germany. They host the worlds most exclusive sale of dressage and jumping horses in the world and he told me that if my five year old was over there she would likely be put in the PSI auction.
So while these achievements are FAR from being close to producing horses that have excelled at the upper levels, I think and hope that I am on the right track. I have had very good offers on my horses, all from FEI riders. That gives me a good indication too, that I am on the right track with my breeding program. But at the end of the day, I am a novice in this breeding game. I know very, very little…but the one thing I do know is that breeding for less than average is not what a good breeder does.
Really though, this has nothing to do with what I am breeding. My point in all of this is simply that no breeder should ever aspire to breed a horse that is simply " pretty and capable of low level work" ie average/below average because as I have said repeatedly, THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF HORSES ALREADY OUT THERE CAPABLE OF DOING SO. They are all over the place. Any horse with four legs and a semi normal brain can do low level anything. Why, WHY on earth would you feel that the world needs MORE of these?? It really just boggles the mind.
And again, this has nothing at all to do with breed. Mystic Oak breeds crossbred horses and they are lovely horses but I am guessing her breeding goals consist of more than to just produce “a horse capable of low level success”. I don’t care what people breed if they are breeding for a real market. The problem exists when people breed animals for a market that is already hugely flooded. That just isn’t right, I am sorry, but it is not. And it IS the reason that so many horses go to slaughter every year.
[QUOTE=fizzyfuzzybuzzy;7432953]
I can produce the same for half the price, and it would be mainly for me. [/QUOTE]
Just realize you have no idea if you can produce the same. That’s why breeding is a crapshoot and breeding F1’s is even more of one.
But as long as you are willing to keep it no matter what AND keep the mare, it’s all good. And I assume you are?
[QUOTE=fizzyfuzzybuzzy;7432953]
I am not looking to make money on the venture, I love breeding, raising foals and training young horses. If I eventually broke even, I’d be more than happy. As you said, most of the GG are from mediocre stock (with a few notable exceptions), so I am looking to produce a higher quality for essentially the same price (mare purchase price might be higher, as well as stud fee, but that would only be a minor price increase). I would have the mare costs anyway, as I would only purchase a mare that I would either breed again (provided the foal showed quality) or would be my riding/lesson/husband/guest horse. So I’d be feeding and vetting, and trimming an additional horse anyway. I work in the vet field, so I have access to low cost, high quality vet care. I’m extremely lucky in that.
If I don’t find an ASB mare that I feel would produce a high quality, sane, healthy, athletic foal for me to raise and show, I would not breed one.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7433291]Just realize you have no idea if you can produce the same. That’s why breeding is a crapshoot and breeding F1’s is even more of one.
But as long as you are willing to keep it no matter what AND keep the mare, it’s all good. And I assume you are?[/QUOTE]
Nobody knows. But I know people who are consistently producing lovely foals from F1 crosses. I just can’t afford to buy them already on the ground. Those breeders are doing it as a business, and need to sell at a profit. I understand that for sure, and don’t fault them one bit. Still doesn’t mean I can afford the babies.
I believe my last post already answered the other question. Just because I’m not the idiot you think I am, it’s no reason to ask to me repeat myself endlessly. You’ve already stated that I am taking an enormous (and apparently unnecessary) risk in breeding anything other than an FEI level WB mare to and FEI level WB stallion, even though that it not really what I’d like to produce. Not sure what else you are hoping to get from this conversation? That you converted me and that I will only breed what you and some other people on this forum feel is suitable? OK, fine. You guys win.
.
You’ve already stated that I am taking an enormous (and apparently unnecessary) risk in breeding anything other than an FEI level WB mare to and FEI level WB stallion, even though that it not really what I’d like to produce. Not sure what else you are hoping to get from this conversation? That you converted me and that I will only breed what you and some other people on this forum feel is suitable?
I was simply wondering why anyone would breed with the goal of producing " a pretty horse that can do low level work" when there are hundreds of thousands of cheap horses out there that already fit that bill. You can’t blame someone for wondering such a thing can you?
Of course you have your Jazz’s & Ferro’s & such, but I would venture to say there are more mellow, “rider-friendly” WBs than not. I have no personal experience with ASB so I can’t compare, but I do have extensive experience with PB Arabs, Akhal Tekes & TBs…and (for the most part…there are ALWAYS exceptions) and I can tell you that WBs are SUPER mellow compared to all these other breeds.
Ah but there’s the real rub isn’t it? Some of us are turned on by a particular type and some by a particular breed. Those who eschew the virtues of saddlebreds are no different than those of us who love a good Arab or TB or Akhal Teke (or Welsh Cob :winkgrin:). While I agree that F1 crosses can be tricky, I also know that they can be some of the best products out there and usually are so after careful research and educating oneself.
OP, I’m another who fails to breed FEI level warmblood to FEI level warmblood and am very happy with my results. I do my best to be responsible in my choices and make worthy citizens of the same. Simply by doing that I find that there is a market. I know what is easiest for me to train and I know what I want to throw my leg over…fortunately I’m not alone in that endeavor and thus my market is defined and so far I find it’s ever present.
I was simply wondering why anyone would breed with the goal of producing " a pretty horse that can do low level work" when there are hundreds of thousands of cheap horses out there that already fit that bill. You can’t blame someone for wondering such a thing can you?
I don’t blame any one for wondering what makes another person tick but I often ponder a different question…How many of those hundreds and thousands of cheap horses could actually do higher level work but simply aren’t expected to or asked to? Does expensive automatically mean it’s going to be the answer to my prayers or dreams…in my experience, no. I do produce for a lower income market and one who wants to enjoy their own journey in sport/hobby be it dressage, foxhunting, CDEs, or trail riding - or <gasp> all of the aforementioned over a lifetime. They have a post on each corner and are sound. Only the rider/driver really limits their potential. Perhaps the OP is just wanting to do the same?
I re-posted the OP’s original answer to Bayhawk’s initial post.
NOWHERE, at NO point, did the OP EVER state that all she wanted to do was breed a “pretty low-level horse”. NOWHERE.
She DID say she wasn’t aiming for an Olympic calibre athlete. That’s it.
I’m sorry, but last I checked there’s a lot of stuff in between Training Level and FEI, and 3 ft and 5’6". :rolleyes:
Good grief. Stop stuffing words into her mouth, people.
I don’t think anyone (certainly not me) is suggesting the OP switch to WBs if that’s not her cup of tea. In fact, I don’t see many posts that suggest that. My point is simply that even the most well-intentioned crosses made by people with years of experience don’t always turned out as planned.
Considering I spend about 15 mins on the net and discovered at least a dozen ASB x foals (and some slightly older) that were bred for “sport” for sale for $6500 or less, I really don’t see the point in the OP breeding one for $5500 when she can get exactly what she wants and it’s already on the ground. Examples after about 5 mins of searching:
http://www.equine.com/horses-for-sale/horse-ad-3241661.html
http://www.equine.com/horses-for-sale/horse-ad-3242880.html (this one is already training 2nd level)
http://www.horsebreederdirect.com/horses/flyingwfarms/friesianGGfilly14 (this one is really cute…$5000!)
http://www.horsebreederdirect.com/horses/flyingwfarms/FriesianGGFilly11
http://www.horsebreederdirect.com/horses/flyingwfarms/friesianggcolt12
The last three are priced at $5000 obo. And if she can’t afford a $5000 foal, how is she going to afford producing a $5000 foal?
Just sayin’…
This also might be an eye-opener for the OP should she think she could actually sell the foals for a profit. These breeders probably are making a tiny bit of profit because they own the stallion and their mare(s) have already paid for themselves by producing several foals.
But as a one shot deal and having to buy the stud fee? The OP will not be able to sell the product for anything close to a profit…she will be lucky if she breaks even (which is all I do…sometimes there is a tiny profit, but I don’t do this for the $$).
Again, it’s not really about the breed or the cross or any of that in my eyes. It’s about breeding an animal for lower to mid-level sport (at best) when there are already 1,000’s out there who easily fit the bill.
It was mentioned numerous times on this thread that ASBs excel at lower level dressage (as if this is something to brag about). My point is that so can anything with four legs and a brain.
If you are looking to breed something that excels in the sport of dressage past second level then you are not stacking the deck in your favor by using an ASB mare. Not saying it is impossible, of course, just harder to do.
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