OP, If you do decide to breed an ASB x WB, try to find an ASB with as little gaited blood behind it as possible. A laterally moving cross will probably not do well in Dressage. I have a Morgan x WB and she is lovely, that cross works very well.
[QUOTE=exvet;7433468]
Of course you have your Jazz’s & Ferro’s & such, but I would venture to say there are more mellow, “rider-friendly” WBs than not. I have no personal experience with ASB so I can’t compare, but I do have extensive experience with PB Arabs, Akhal Tekes & TBs…and (for the most part…there are ALWAYS exceptions) and I can tell you that WBs are SUPER mellow compared to all these other breeds.
Ah but there’s the real rub isn’t it? Some of us are turned on by a particular type and some by a particular breed. Those who eschew the virtues of saddlebreds are no different than those of us who love a good Arab or TB or Akhal Teke (or Welsh Cob :winkgrin:). While I agree that F1 crosses can be tricky, I also know that they can be some of the best products out there and usually are so after careful research and educating oneself.
OP, I’m another who fails to breed FEI level warmblood to FEI level warmblood and am very happy with my results. I do my best to be responsible in my choices and make worthy citizens of the same. Simply by doing that I find that there is a market. I know what is easiest for me to train and I know what I want to throw my leg over…fortunately I’m not alone in that endeavor and thus my market is defined and so far I find it’s ever present.[/QUOTE]
You miss my point. Several people have said WBs are hot, stubborn, diva-like. For the most part, this simply isn’t true.
Has nothing to do with breed preference and all about breed accuracy. For instance, I do not and will not recommend many Tekes to beginners or low level ammies. They tend to have strong personalities and are VERY reactive.
Simply correcting a misstatement, that’s all.
All the horses you posted were friesian crosses. I don’t really want a friesian cross. And that is the way the gg world is turning right now. And I’ve already stated several times WHY I want to breed one myself, and it’s not to make money. And when did I ever say I was looking to produce low level horses? In fact, I said I was looking to produce ammy friendly horses. That only means it would be something that doesn’t require a pro ride. As well as something that us financially attainable for an ammy rider.
I also never said I couldn’t afford a $5K foal. I said I couldn’t afford $10, 000-$12, 000 foal. Which is what the wb/asb foals that are what I am looking for are priced at. That a BIG price difference.
Oh isn’t she cute! Now I want one too…
[I]You miss my point. Several people have said WBs are hot, stubborn, diva-like. For the most part, this simply isn’t true.
Has nothing to do with breed preference and all about breed accuracy. For instance, I do not and will not recommend many Tekes to beginners or low level ammies. They tend to have strong personalities and are VERY reactive.
Simply correcting a misstatement, that’s all. [/I]
No I didn’t miss your point at all. I know many WBs that aren’t hot or at least what I would consider as hot. You (that’s the collective you) can tell me all day long how whacko Arabs are but they were what my kids learned how to ride on because my Welsh cobs were too much for a kid; yet, many think “Welsh” is synonymous with kids’ mount. To many of us who gravitate towards a breed, we tend to see more of the positives than the negatives and both sides tend to paint with a very broad brush/stroke. I’m just pointing out that the breeds being considered by the OP may be that person’s breeds, kind of like Arabs, Morgans and Welsh are for me. I will acknowledge all their drawbacks but that doesn’t make me want them any less or make me want to cast one aside because all the data says that WBs are the way to go if you want to succeed.
I find the hypocrisy of this board extremely ironic at times.
Breeders constantly telling other folks not to breed because there are too many unwanted horses ? 
Pot, meet kettle…
Clearly the OP is not going about this without consideration.
[QUOTE=Texarkana;7433830]
I find the hypocrisy of this board extremely ironic at times.
Breeders constantly telling other folks not to breed because there are too many unwanted horses ?
Pot, meet kettle…
Clearly the OP is not going about this without consideration.[/QUOTE]
Thank you! Sometimes I wonder if the nay saying is based on the worry of competition, or that quality horses produced at a lower cost will bring the demand for their WB foals down.
[QUOTE=Donella;7433603]
It was mentioned numerous times on this thread that ASBs excel at lower level dressage (as if this is something to brag about). My point is that so can anything with four legs and a brain.
If you are looking to breed something that excels in the sport of dressage past second level then you are not stacking the deck in your favor by using an ASB mare. Not saying it is impossible, of course, just harder to do.[/QUOTE]
The main factor preventing an athletic, trainable horse with 3 good gaits from being competitive past second level at a local/regional level (where the vast majority of us reside) is the talent of the rider and quality of the training. Period.
Equating competitiveness, or lack thereof, past second level with a specific breed is a straw man argument. Baseline competitiveness begins with an athletic, trainable horse with 3 GOOD basic gaits…and that can be found under many, many ‘labels’. The next factor is quality riding and training. The vast majority of horses in the hands of talented riders and trainer in dressage are warmbloods, and therefore the odds of ‘some’ of them being competitive past 2nd level is high. It’s partially a number game and warmbloods have the odds in their favor, along with also being purposely bred to be athletic and have 3 good gaits (which does not mean all of them possess these qualities, or are trainable, ridable or fun for an ammy).
However, having said all of that, this conversely does not mean horses of other lineage cannot have 3 good, competitive dressage gaits, nor does it Exclude individuals horses of XYZ breed/Hienz 57 with 3 good gaits and trainability from also being competitive past second level should they be lucky enough to land in the hands of quality riding/training. The odds of these stars aligning are just much lower, and therefore these types of individual non-warmblood horses are not as common past second level.
So, to link the fewer numbers of non-warmblood anything being competitive past second level with the idea that they CANNOT be competitive past second level is a false comparison that unfortunately gets repeated often.
I don’t mean to sound negative towards our breeders here. There are some top notch, elite breeders on this forum who have put in lots of blood, sweat, and tears to produce phenomenal quality horses. I truly respect their knowledge and hard work.
But at the same time, I think it’s rather inconsiderate to assume no one else is capable of producing a horse that will have a home and be a useful member of equine society.
I think it’s safe to say that most folks posting here for advice and education aren’t the type to produce 6 generations of unwanted pintawalkaloosas because babies are cute and gelding is expensive. :lol:
Thank you! Sometimes I wonder if the nay saying is based on the worry of competition, or that quality horses produced at a lower cost will bring the demand for their WB foals down.
As one who colors outside the lines on a regular basis, I honestly don’t think the naysayers are worried about competition nor that we’ll lower the cost/demand for their WBs. I know with full clarity that I am not endangering their business in anyway. I think much of it comes from their experience and success and feel strongly that their way is the only right way to do things. I agree with them that they have found the right recipe for their goals and desires based on likely much work and expense. Many who have responded have proven their mettle and expertise. I give them full credit for that but I am one of those (and I’ve said this repeatedly over the years) who prefers my breed first and foremost and the disciplines of my choosing come second. Many simply cannot understand that and that’s okay. I think if someone is doing their homework and establishing a path that lessens the chances of getting a conformationally unsound or mentally unsound animal and commits to do what it takes to see that it has a job, then there is nothing wrong with what they choose to breed. There are all types of successes and winners in this world. We’re not all lining up to be in the same race.
[QUOTE=fizzyfuzzybuzzy;7433855]
Thank you! Sometimes I wonder if the nay saying is based on the worry of competition, or that quality horses produced at a lower cost will bring the demand for their WB foals down.[/QUOTE]
Just do a search for Wb X. I did but the results would not link properly. There was a lot of these horses going for 3k and under in the ads. There was some for a decent price but they had a proven show record and were still valued way less then their full WB counter parts at the same level.
Full Wb’s with so so pedigrees are not selling very well also. Many are going for around 5k or under and they are decent horses, probably as talented as what the cross is going to bring.
OP, you sound like an intelligent person. But you say that the type of horse your looking for is costing 10-15k as a foal or young horse. Correct? 15k for a foal or weanling buys you a nice horse with potential. I can give you a ton of examples of very solid amateur horses for that price and less that will easily take their owners as far as they have time to go.
BUT you have 5k to put into a foal that may or may not turn out the way you want (please believe this to be true and even the ABS people are not denying that a cross is more random in results). So you think that the 5k foals out there now do not have the talent that you will be able to breed for 5k?
http://www.dreamhorse.com/full_search.php
Put in warmblood X and in age “under 3”. These prices are typical of that type of horse. Doesn’t mean they will not be nice horse or they don’t show potential, just means they do not have a good market value.
I did the same search with ASB’s and the crosses, same thing. The full horses had a much higher value then the crosses. Fair or not, that is the market and I guess people are having a hard time understanding why you want to spend the money to breed that horse when we are seeing that type of horse all around us for much less than it cost us to breed a foal.
http://www.fallclassicsale.com/files/Sale_Results_2013.pdf results from a sale last year…not untypical for the market. If you search, you can find the bloodlines and ages of the results. There was some very decent prices for the well bred horses (19# was a foal and 12# was a nice gelding just started with beautiful movement) and many of the lower priced horses were either horses with another breed in the pedigree or they have average pedigrees and did not show their talent in the two days leading up to the sale. Some of the lower priced horses will probably turn out to be decent horses for their ammy owners. Friend bought one last year 3900, a gelding from frozen semen and he is a doll. Will make a wonderful horse for someone and will have talent to dressage/jumping low level.
THIS is the reason people are telling you to look for a horse for 5k. Because many people are already losing money to breed these horses, they are already out there and the fails are ending up in the auction.
Stoicfish- have you ever considered that it may not be solely about money/value for the OP?
For all those folks that keeping making the comments that WB’s are hot and won’t stay sound…This is absolute BS and the problem lies with you. You abviously don’t know how to breed them or buy them.
I have never had a soundness issue nor a temperment issue and don’t know anyone here or in Germany that does. I would never tolerate that in my line.
Warmbloods dominate the world of equestrian sport and they couldn’t do this if they weren’t sound or sane.
Now lets get back to American Saddbred promotional channel.
[QUOTE=Texarkana;7433896]
Stoicfish- have you ever considered that it may not be solely about money/value for the OP?[/QUOTE]
Yes. If she just wants to raise a foal and keep it for life just for the experience. That is fine. No harm in that.
But there was several references like this
In fact, I said I was looking to produce ammy friendly horses. That only means it would be something that doesn’t require a pro ride. As well as something that us financially attainable for an ammy rider.
that leads me to believe that the OP believes she will fill a void in a market where there certainly isn’t a void. There are tons of ammy friendly horses with talent enough for their owners out there already around 5k. The foals that are 10k or up are probably much more talented than she is able to produce with that cross.
So according to her own statements, it is about money and the availability of a certain type of horse.
[QUOTE=cb06;7433873]
The main factor preventing an athletic, trainable horse with 3 good gaits from being competitive past second level at a local/regional level (where the vast majority of us reside) is the talent of the rider and quality of the training.[/QUOTE]
I agree with this comment, and will also add that a factor in “talent of the rider” is the ability to sit the trot, absorb and go with the motion of the back, and keep the horse working through its topline without shutting down its gaits. This can be pretty tricky for many amateurs, esp. as we get older and for those of us who have spent most of our adult lives at a desk job.
Many warmbloods are very swingy in their backs. While this can vary quite a bit from individual to individual, and from bloodline to bloodline, dressage bred warmbloods often have more swing and power than some amateurs can handle. Many of these folks are much more comfortable - mentally and physically - on a horse with less swing, less power, less motion through the topline, and they advance in their riding much more quickly if they aren’t constantly having to struggle to keep themselves balanced and in sync with a big moving “back mover”.
For many of these folks, an ASB, or QH, or Morgan, or draft cross with less motion in the back may indeed be their ideal lower level horse.
[QUOTE=stoicfish;7433888]
Just do a search for Wb X. I did but the results would not link properly. There was a lot of these horses going for 3k and under in the ads. There was some for a decent price but they had a proven show record and were still valued way less then their full WB counter parts at the same level.
.[/QUOTE]
I clicked on your link and didn’t even see Warmblood cross as a search option. What exactly is a warmblood cross anyway? My filly is half TB half Hanoverian but is 100% Oldenburg registered and branded. Is she a warmblood cross?
[QUOTE=Laurierace;7434024]
I clicked on your link and didn’t even see Warmblood cross as a search option. What exactly is a warmblood cross anyway? My filly is half TB half Hanoverian but is 100% Oldenburg registered and branded. Is she a warmblood cross?[/QUOTE]
It takes you to Advanced search (or was supposed to) and under the “Include Breeds” go till you find “Warmblood cross”.
Or you can search the American Warmblood Soc or Reg as there is examples of Wb X to other breeds (other than the Arab or TB that can be accepted traditionally into the books).
Tb is not considered an off breed for most Wb’s as it is improvement blood.
http://hanoverian.org/interested-in-breeding-your-thoroughbred-arab-or-anglo-arab-mare-to-a-hanoverian-stallion/
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7433285]
Ok, this is 2nd or 3rd time this statement has been made and it’s just sheer nonsense. If you notice, one of the things they grade WBs on is “rideability” and “character.” If you know the pedigree, many of them could be ridden by any bone head who knows how to keep a leg on either side & stay upright.
OTOH my Weltmeyer mare tends to produce, if not pro rides, at least horses that do not suffer fools lightly…a fumbling, ignorant ammie would not do well on them.
Of course you have your Jazz’s & Ferro’s & such, but I would venture to say there are more mellow, “rider-friendly” WBs than not. I have no personal experience with ASB so I can’t compare, but I do have extensive experience with PB Arabs, Akhal Tekes & TBs…and (for the most part…there are ALWAYS exceptions) and I can tell you that WBs are SUPER mellow compared to all these other breeds.
We really must be careful not to make statements that don’t have much validity.[/QUOTE]
I agree about not making statements that lack validity, however…I don’t believe my statements lack validity - there are many, many comments on this thread (and in this forum) about other breeds that show a terrible lack of knowledge or bias against other breeds, for which those breeders have no personal experience or education. At least some who are speaking up here have dealt with WBs, and chosen to go another route because the WB route wasn’t right for them. I am not saying that all WBs are difficult - but generally, the price for one that is an easy ride with training is way out of the average person’s budget. Compare that to a cross, and the price may be way less. Of course, the downside to that - the cross breeder is making less, with essentially the same financial output.
If you are comparing to TB, AkT, and Arab, you are comparing to hotbloods - of course, they are going to be hotter then a WB.
Many of the people I know are riding Warmbloods - and many of them are difficult rides. I personally have owned quite a few - my original cross breeding experiment was due to frustration w/ the WB types I could afford. I think this is partly because the ones with the better gaits and rideability are EXPENSIVE - so for the average rider who can’t afford a $40k Training Level horse or older schoolmaster, this leaves them with the less-then-perfect WB, of which there seem to be many.
I could list at least 20 or 30 examples (horses and owners I personally know), including those in pro training, who are tougher rides. I have several trainer friends with success in the FEI level, and while most of them love the WBs, most also acknowledge they can be a tougher ride for the average ammy rider. THEY want a WB because IF you can ride them well, the odds are stacked for FEI performance, but most of the trainers I know also acknowledge that their clients may NOT be able to produce that ride.
Warmbloods are not scored for rideability - the stallions are, but the vast majority of non-stallions never go through testing beyond foal inspection. Even the MPT is not required, and is a one-day, simple riding test, that really doesn’t give much indication of how rideable the mare is - as already stated, any horse can do a Training Level test. AND rideability does not mean safe and sane for a lower level rider, it means rideability for a talented pro rider. There is a huge difference. And it is not always inherited - especially since the dam may not have been tested. Of course, there are certain lines that tend to be more rideable - R and D lines are generally easier then W lines (I am more familiar w/ Oldenburg/Hanoverian then I am w/ Dutch lines, but the Dutch horses I know have all been hotter). Interestingly, I’ve dealt with a few B line horses (dam-line and sire line) that were tough cookies, yet we think of that as another good-brain line.
Yes, some of them are “mellow” - and those can be just as hard to ride because mellow means “no go”. To find one that is light, sensitive, sensible, and forgiving means spending $$$. One of my trainer friends tried a few of those mellow types as resale projects and hated them, they were totally safe, but total slugs. Her favorite horses were a WB/Arab cross and a WB/Friesian cross. Yes, she found the crosses to be a more fun, sane,suitable ride.
I’m not saying ALL WBs are difficult, but my experience has been they are more difficult then some of the other riding breeds in general. I’ve owned several WBs, and some of them were fun, fairly easy rides - but not always upper level prospects by any means. Some were so horrid and fight-ready, I put them down (yes, I’ll admit that). I have a yearling right now that is the sweetest, most agreeable guy, I just love him, but they are not all that way. Being a breeder, I have several breeder friends, and their babies are generally not easy babies.
I appealed to one breeder friend for help with a young WB mare I had bought - she came over, worked with her, and said “this isn’t that unusual, you are just use to easy horses”. Well, yes, that is my breeding goal (along with ability to be competitive). Not unusual meant she kicked, bit, and flipped over backwards when she didn’t like what was asked of her. As long as things went her way, she was fine. So, for someone who wants to go do Training Level work, she’ll probably be a dream, fancy gaits, pretty, but the minute you ask her to work harder or load in a trailer, or deal with clipping, all bets are off.
I look at some of the breeding programs on this board, and some are turning out top-quality, potential international quality horses (such as Donella, such as Mo Swanson, such as Siegi). I see some of those horses in the show ring - they are exciting to watch! And I admire them for that - we need North American breeders with international goals. But they are selling toward a clientele who can afford those horses - and afford to have them in training.
This Breeder’s Forum is really a marketing machine for Warmbloods, I think we all know that. If we wanted to go with real validity, we would admit that other breeds can do well - that sport horse breeding is not limited to WBs. I know plenty of Morgans that are quite competitive in eventing and dressage. I have seen some lovely Paints in the dressage and hunter ring. The Friesians are proving themselves in the dressage ring - at the USDF Finals, we saw quite a few Friesians and Friesian crosses in the top rankings. There are more and more Iberians doing well in dressage, and a friend has started eventing them. I’ve seen some Welsh Cobs in the dressage ring that were lovely. Why can’t we accept that these breeds are also sport horses and may have something genetically to contribute to the sport horse world? It doesn’t mean that the WB breeders need to change their course, it just means maybe they won’t jump in with posts that anyone who would consider such breeding is a fool.
Well, having said that, sometimes I think all breeders are fools - we seem to help finance the rest of the riding community:o Anyone who thinks they are going to make money breeding, well, it is highly unlikely. You’re better off dumping money at the Black Jack table, the odds are more in your favor.
[QUOTE=Donella;7433287]
Quite simply, ASBs excel in dressage. Grand Prix jumpers at the highest levels? I do not think as much. As stated, how many of you have bred those horses? You can aspire to that, and I know that there are ASBs who can do it out there, but generally speaking, they’d be the exceptions. You think that because you are breeding some horses who happen to be warmbloods that you are part of that ride, and chances are, you aren’t.
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ASB’s do not “excel” in dressage. Far from it.
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Since you asked, I have only been breeding warmbloods for dressage for the last six years, so my breeding program is in it’s infancy. But I will say that my breeding goals consist of a lot more than to produce a horse that can hopefully do low level sport and look pretty.
I still have a LONG way to go before my breeding goals have a chance to be realized but I hope I am on the right track. So far only two of the horses I bred are at a point where they can be fairly evaluated. The first horse from my breeding program was presented to the Hanoverian verband this year. She scored an average of 8.14 and her scores for the dressage part of the test were 8.5, 8, 8, 9, 9. That is from Dr. Ludwig Christmann and Dr. Brockmann, director of Celle stud. The test rider is a GP rider at Celle and he gave her a 9 for rideability. She was named best Canadian Hanoverian mare and was also winner of the prize for highest MPT score in Canada. This is the first mare we have had at an age to performance test. Her youngster sister was also winner of her class at Spruce and scored an overall 8. She will do her MPT next year and I am fairly confident she will outdo her older sister.
Dr. Ulf Moller sat on my older mare and told me that the work would come really easily for her. He should know. The individual that rides my five year old spent some of last year riding horses for Hof Kasselmann, a really top sales barn in Germany. They host the worlds most exclusive sale of dressage and jumping horses in the world and he told me that if my five year old was over there she would likely be put in the PSI auction.
So while these achievements are FAR from being close to producing horses that have excelled at the upper levels, I think and hope that I am on the right track. I have had very good offers on my horses, all from FEI riders. That gives me a good indication too, that I am on the right track with my breeding program. But at the end of the day, I am a novice in this breeding game. I know very, very little…but the one thing I do know is that breeding for less than average is not what a good breeder does.
Really though, this has nothing to do with what I am breeding. My point in all of this is simply that no breeder should ever aspire to breed a horse that is simply " pretty and capable of low level work" ie average/below average because as I have said repeatedly, THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF HORSES ALREADY OUT THERE CAPABLE OF DOING SO. They are all over the place. Any horse with four legs and a semi normal brain can do low level anything. Why, WHY on earth would you feel that the world needs MORE of these?? It really just boggles the mind.
And again, this has nothing at all to do with breed. Mystic Oak breeds crossbred horses and they are lovely horses but I am guessing her breeding goals consist of more than to just produce “a horse capable of low level success”. I don’t care what people breed if they are breeding for a real market. The problem exists when people breed animals for a market that is already hugely flooded. That just isn’t right, I am sorry, but it is not. And it IS the reason that so many horses go to slaughter every year.[/QUOTE]
Actually, every single one of the ASBs that I have started here- a couple of which have been used as examples on this thread- excelled in dressage. No, not all of them went out and competed.
The first colt from my breeding program was foaled on 1979. Over the years, I have learned that the most important thing is to breed the best to the best, and hope for the best. However, besides the obvious crapshoot still left in that equation, we have all of the other elements- who winds up with a horse, how they are started, whether they ever compete. So, with all of the variables, how do we define success? I believe that it is in having a high quality useful product, that lands in the right spot. That may seem very simplistic.
Newby breeders, who believe that they are going to set the world on fire- in any breed, discipline, etc.- are always entertaining, just like anyone who is new at anything. There is the excitement, and the sure belief that they are going to be successful. Just be sure that you know how you are defining success.
I’ve had some of the very best- horses who were truly competitive over the years, and I’ve also had horses who were great partners, but not worth wasting the horse show fees on. But the reason I am an advocate for the American Saddlebred is that I can be extremely competitive on one, but I also always have a great time working them, because they consistently have the work ethic and ridability that I love.
I call BS. You’re trying to say that no horse bred in Germany has ever had a less-than-stellar temperament or has become unsound? Really??? Get over yourself.
