A simple Google search will tell you all you need to know about Bayhawk. Yes, his delivery can be a bit abrupt but don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. He really does walk the talk and I for one, am always grateful for his little kernels of knowledge.
There’s a fine line between “innovating” and “reinventing the wheel”, and the low end market is flooded with the results of people’s backyard experiments. That’s the point I think people are trying to make.
I’m not anti ASB. Of the various off-breeds, it would probably be my first choice. I’d cross an ASB long before I’d even consider a Morgan, Quarter Horse, Paint, Mustang, etc. I’ve seen other threads on here which were much more alarming than this one with people considering crosses sounding much farther off the wall than this one, so in that regard it’s a shame this is the thread that turned into a trainwreck while other worse threads flew under the radar. I wasn’t overly alarmed at the idea of ASB/Wbld in the grand scheme of things, but this seems to have morphed into a thread about cross breeding. Having said that, cross breeding is still risky and I can understand people advising against such a risk, since the low end market is already flooded.
I’m not anti crossbred either. People who know what they’re doing can do it very successfully. However the majority of cross breeders don’t know what they’re doing, they’re crossing whatever horses/breeds are convenient or affordable to them without a thought toward responsible breeding, and thanks to them the market is flooded with crappy horses and responsible people are gun shy about the idea of people creating more.
Turning on bayhawk for calling a spade a spade is a disingenuous distraction. It’s telling that when people can’t support their views, they personally attack the opposition instead.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7434791]
GAP…don’t mention my name in your diatribes. When you actually breed a horse or compete one, you may then get a little credibility. You come on here giving absolute advice and giving absolute statements about things you don’t have a clue about.
I don’t “spit” on anything. I have previously stated that F1 crosses with TB’s are generally not desirable because you have lost parts of both parents and have different parts of both parents.
You wouldn’t know about your last sentence either as you don’t have the experience to know what will or won’t make a good cross.[/QUOTE]
Yes I do know what would make a good cross, because I know horses. I could care a less whether someone like you thinks I have credibility or not.
Yes I have both bred a horse and competed. I had to provide a competition record in eventing for the insurance company after my mare’s death, which occurred shortly after the birth of her foal.
And yes, you do spit on TB/warmblood crosses. There are whole threads on this forum full of your own actual diatribes on the subject. This very thread is full of your spitting on the idea of SB/ warmblood crosses.
[QUOTE=Fourbeats;7436014]
A simple Google search will tell you all you need to know about Bayhawk. Yes, his delivery can be a bit abrupt but don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. He really does walk the talk and I for one, am always grateful for his little kernels of knowledge.[/QUOTE]
His posts on here tell me all I need to know.
[QUOTE=Serious Leigh;7436018]
Turning on bayhawk for calling a spade a spade is a disingenuous distraction. It’s telling that when people can’t support their views, they personally attack the opposition instead.[/QUOTE]
People have supported their views regarding Saddlebreds. Didn’t you read the thread?
[QUOTE=Serious Leigh;7436018]
There’s a fine line between “innovating” and “reinventing the wheel”, and the low end market is flooded with the results of people’s backyard experiments. That’s the point I think people are trying to make.
I’m not anti ASB. Of the various off-breeds, it would probably be my first choice. I’d cross an ASB long before I’d even consider a Morgan, Quarter Horse, Paint, Mustang, etc. I’ve seen other threads on here which were much more alarming than this one with people considering crosses sounding much farther off the wall than this one, so in that regard it’s a shame this is the thread that turned into a trainwreck while other worse threads flew under the radar. I wasn’t overly alarmed at the idea of ASB/Wbld in the grand scheme of things, but this seems to have morphed into a thread about cross breeding. Having said that, cross breeding is still risky and I can understand people advising against such a risk, since the low end market is already flooded.
I’m not anti crossbred either. People who know what they’re doing can do it very successfully. However the majority of cross breeders don’t know what they’re doing, they’re crossing whatever horses/breeds are convenient or affordable to them without a thought toward responsible breeding, and thanks to them the market is flooded with crappy horses and responsible people are gun shy about the idea of people creating more.
Turning on bayhawk for calling a spade a spade is a disingenuous distraction. It’s telling that when people can’t support their views, they personally attack the opposition instead.[/QUOTE]
Perfect interpretation ! It always happens this way…when they can’t argue with knowledge…they always resort to personal attack.
I will gladly admit that I have a limited and biased knowledge base of ASBs however I do believe that the only approved breeds for OLD and probably most WBs to cross with are Arabs and TBs. I have seen QHs and APPs be presented but only graded as ISR eligible. The WB registries are concerned with knowing the purity of the breeding foundation. I am sure that is why they allow the Arabs and the TBs for refinement purposes.
There is also the whole “GAIT” issue that I have not heard anyone speak to. WBs are looking at 3 clearly defined gaits. You certainly don’t want something to start doing a strange gait down the centerline. And for what it is worth there has not been one example given of an ASB yet on this thread that I would consider breeding to or using as breeding stock for my program. Not being mean just honest. And, some of the dressage examples were alittle scary and hollow to me.
Thank you!! THIS is certainly what I’ve been saying. Especially since the OP says the product is for her own use (although she really hasn’t disclosed what that use would be).
Anyone who has any experience with breeding of ANY breed will tell you it’s a high risk game: not only the “risk” involved in the quality of the resulting foal (because history is littered with “Best to Best” producing crap), but also the risk to the mare, to the pregnancy, to the foal…and then to the animal while it grows up.
All in all, it makes far more sense to BUY a horse already on the ground rather than a newbie breeder “experimenting” with a far from proven F1 cross for some undisclosed sport.
I just can’t believe there isn’t a horse out there somewhere (probably several) that fits the OP’s needs & wants that isn’t already on the ground. That’s all.
[QUOTE=europa;7436291]
I will gladly admit that I have a limited and biased knowledge base of ASBs however I do believe that the only approved breeds for OLD and probably most WBs to cross with are Arabs and TBs. I have seen QHs and APPs be presented but only graded as ISR eligible. The WB registries are concerned with knowing the purity of the breeding foundation. I am sure that is why they allow the Arabs and the TBs for refinement purposes.
There is also the whole “GAIT” issue that I have not heard anyone speak to. WBs are looking at 3 clearly defined gaits. You certainly don’t want something to start doing a strange gait down the centerline. And for what it is worth there has not been one example given of an ASB yet on this thread that I would consider breeding to or using as breeding stock for my program. Not being mean just honest. And, some of the dressage examples were alittle scary and hollow to me.[/QUOTE]
Gaits actually were addressed earlier in the thread, and proof of anything on a thread on COTH is an tiny tiny amount of the info out there. Besides, Hilda Gurney actually liked ASBStar’s horses. If the OP can find a mare that has all of the attributes she wants, well, no one can really tell her whether she should breed or not.
[QUOTE=europa;7436291]
I will gladly admit that I have a limited and biased knowledge base of ASBs however I do believe that the only approved breeds for OLD and probably most WBs to cross with are Arabs and TBs.
There is also the whole “GAIT” issue that I have not heard anyone speak to. [/QUOTE]
It has not been “spoken to” because there is nothing to “speak to”.
Saddlebreds are not a naturally gaited breed the way Icelandics and Pasos are, despite the frustratingly popular misconception. They can easily and readily be TRAINED to slow gait and rack.
As has been pointed out multiple times already in this thread, the detractors are freely admitting they have little to no knowledge of ASBs while the defenders are consistently pointing out they have plenty of experience with WBs and yet choose ASBs (or crosses thereof, or other breeds) for sport ANYway.
I rode nothing but Warmbloods when I lived in Europe (Brussels, specifically). I leased a couple, rode a bunch more, competed with them, handled them, rode green ones, packers, etc etc. I too never saw anything “wrong” with them per se, they were what I knew and was used to.
Until I bought my first Saddlebred. Then another. And another. My perspective changed drastically. Just like it did for SO many others, some of whom have posted on this very thread.
So can we please stop going round and round on this? Can we all agree to disagree? The OP is not going to go out and buy a $100 sway-backed piece of sh*t and breed to the unapproved, unsound sled of a WB down the road, ok? It’s pretty clear she’s got a good head on her shoulders and will be responsible about her choices. So can we please stop this back-and-forthing without listening that is going on here?
I am certainly not telling her not to do what she wants. I too just think there are so many horses already out there to choose from. And everyone needs to remember this is a sport horse breeding forum not a I want to breed my heart horse one time for a personal horse of my own thread. She can do what she wants but coming on here and telling breeders that…well she had to know what the response would be.
[QUOTE=europa;7436377]
I am certainly not telling her not to do what she wants. I too just think there are so many horses already out there to choose from. And everyone needs to remember this is a sport horse breeding forum not a I want to breed my heart horse one time for a personal horse of my own thread. She can do what she wants but coming on here and telling breeders that…well she had to know what the response would be.[/QUOTE]
Since the OP is looking to breed a dressage horse it’s inappropriate for you to insinuate that she shouldn’t post here. So now according to you one can only post here if one breeds a bunch? I read and post here because I’m interested in the pedigrees and history of good horses – you know, where they come from.
With regards to your earlier post, I clicked on one link in Silvia’s post and looked at Forty Something – that horse was beautiful, certainly not hollow or scary.
Wow some people like to argue! I am just saying that this is a breeding forum. If you come on here with a suggestion such as the ASB/WB cross you would have to know that the WB breeders would wonder and have opinions. Common Sense. I personally would not go on a ASB forum and say hey your horses aren’t competitive so lets cross them with WBs…what do you all think? JUST SAYING
[QUOTE=europa;7436408]
Wow some people like to argue! I am just saying that this is a breeding forum. If you come on here with a suggestion such as the ASB/WB cross you would have to know that the WB breeders would wonder and have opinions. Common Sense. I personally would not go on a ASB forum and say hey your horses aren’t competitive so lets cross them with WBs…what do you all think? JUST SAYING[/QUOTE]
This isn’t the warmblood breeding forum. JUST SAYING.
You know, I could see why you would post on this thread a bunch of times if you had something helpful to contribute, but you don’t. You yourself are arguing on this thread.
Except - this is NOT A WARMBLOOD FORUM.
And she did not come on here asking “what do you think about doing this cross?” she asked where to find a good quality sport-type ASB broodmare. Unless you had advice on where to find such a mare, any other comments were unwarranted and inappropriate, honestly.
Now, can some of you guys please go spread your negativity on the Appy sporthorse thread? That person is (gasp) looking to breed an Appy sporthorse or possibly an Appy/WB cross… you must hurry up and go tell her what a stupid and pointless venture it is. :rolleyes:
She didn’t tell breeders anything, she asked where she could find a saddlebred broodmare, and was TOLD rudely by Bayhawk, that she didn’t belong on this forum, because only elite warmblood breeders like he is, are allowed to post on this “sport horse breeding forum.”
You know, despite the fact that “sport horse” is nothing more than the catchall phrase used to connote any horse used for what are traditionally considered the olympic disciplines, along with fox hunting, combined driving… and the like.
[QUOTE=europa;7436377]
And everyone needs to remember this is a sport horse breeding forum not a I want to breed my heart horse one time for a personal horse of my own thread. [/QUOTE]
I did come on here, and got WONDERFUL advice for when I bred my ONE heart horse ONE time. The resulting foal is exactly what I was aiming for, and barring unforeseen circumstances, we should be heading off to our first show in the next couple of months.
Good God. This is an open sport horse breeding forum, on a website hosted by a magazine, people… If you want to only talk about awesome elite warmbloods, there are forums FOR that.
Sometimes I think some of the breeders on here view people as their own personal property, to whom only THEY should be allowed to sell their offspring…
[QUOTE=europa;7436377]
I am certainly not telling her not to do what she wants. I too just think there are so many horses already out there to choose from. And everyone needs to remember this is a sport horse breeding forum not a I want to breed my heart horse one time for a personal horse of my own thread. She can do what she wants but coming on here and telling breeders that…well she had to know what the response would be.[/QUOTE]
This is what I said in my very first post but the Saddlebred Mafia put out a hit on me.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7436430]
This is what I said in my very first post but the Saddlebred Mafia put out a hit on me.[/QUOTE]
Not the saddlebred mafia, the people who keep pointing out that this is an all-breed sport horse forum.
But I’ve noticed that you ignore when people point out the fallacies in your arguments, or ask you to provide actual examples of your expertise.
Since everyone’s had the opportunity to discuss this topic for 19 pages, and things are getting more focused on the merit of the topic vs. the topic itself, we’re going to close the thread.
Thanks,
Mod 1
