Where would you shop for an upper level event prospect?

[vineyridge]

Fact is that it’s not cost efficient for pro RIDERS in the US to make young horses. For them they need to have enough experience on the horse to be able to evaluate how far up it can likely go. They can put a year or two on a going horse and sell to a young rider with ambitions. For them, getting a young (7 or so) 2* horse makes sense.

Since the US has very few really good young horse makers to get them to the 2*
level, shopping overseas makes sense for the professionals. Most breeders here or overseas don’t have the capacity or funding to make their horses to the 2* level, and every day of professional training has to add to the price of the horse. It’s just that the cost of making to that level is MUCH higher in the US.

[SLR]

BFNE That being said, what is your complaint then? If there is a great availability of prospects in the mid-atlantic, and they are easy to get to, then is your complaint that they are not being sold because no one has the eye for quality that you, or Boyd, or Phillip do? If the ULR and their owners were just educated they would be buying here? Why then do Philip and Boyd go to the same people in Europe and here to buy young stock? Philip has had his fair share of horses sourced by Carol Gee. I think the younger, less educated buyers then are just rrying to follow the lead. Just trying to sort out what you are saying. and honestly trying to understand. The reasons I mentioned earlier for going abroad are the same ones the ULR use for going to Europe. But again, I believe they are buying, or trying to buy, what is being placed by the judges.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

My complaint is not with my own selling of horses. I don’t have an issue selling mine. My issue is those thinking they have to go abroad to find prospects. Or even that it is hard to find a prospect. There are tons available here in the US and they are not hard to find if you know what to look for.

Most of the horses Boyd, Phillip et al are getting from the Carol Gee’s are ones that are at the 1* or 2* level already. That is a different animal…and a MUCH higher price tag than the OP posted. Occassionallly…they will also get young if they are there and see one…but I doubt either is running to Europe for youngsters. They both also have many in their barns that are younger…and sourced from here in the US. Hell…Boyd breeds his own occassionally.

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=AKB;7861365]
One advantage to going to Ireland is that the Irish can produce their horses more cheaply than we can. When we were at the Royal Dublin Show in August, I sat next to an Irishman. He takes his 3 year olds on quiet, group, trail rides on the good footing. His 4 year olds compete every other weekend at a cost of $80 per competition. By the time he brings a 5 year old to the RDS show, the horse is an experienced competitor who is relaxed and focused over the huge jumps at the RDS.[/QUOTE]

I think that is a huge part of why people like shopping and buying there. I haven’t been to Ireland, but I have traveled extensively in England and love riding there. Why? Because it is so easy to tack up and go out the back of the property and ride for miles. No wonder their horses are so comfortable with the eventing scene because by the time they are ready for the big time they have seen it already as you pointed out.

Riding out in the woods, on trails, in big open fields is not a huge deal because these horses get to do it all the time. It isn’t a huge production to get out to school that way. You can go out for a hack and pop over some jumps here and there and not turn it into a big deal. Consequently the horses usually don’t think it’s a big deal either.

Edited to say: One day I was out on a trail ride with a few people from the barn where I was riding at the time. One of the people in the group was a GP dressage trainer who imported horses from Europe. She made the comment that “there are plenty of people in the US lining up to pay a lot of money for horses that are very inexpensive in Germany.”

If someone gave me a certain amount of money to spend on a horse, there is a certain level below which I wouldn’t shop overseas, figuring that most of my money would be getting caught up in shipping, commissions, broker fees, etc.

[judybigredpony]

BFNE Speaks the truth…and I can say with accuracy most of the mentioned BNR do not want to pay the $$$ for a US sourced Young Prospect especially an OTTB. They will,pay significantly more for same if it has a passport. It’s like buying a car it’s perceived to be better if “German Engineered” or Bavarian made" .
I sell enough horses year in and year out, see the same faces and get the same requests and hear the same …Want fancy big athletic elegant bold YEH prospect for…umm $3k-$5k…When I have that in my barn it goes for $10-15k and lasts maybe a week.
The Instant Gratification generation is fueled by the ego s and needs of instant reward owners…Patience and in it for the long haul has been eclipsed by We Want We Need We can Afford so just BUY IT…and like a generation of past if it has a title and comes from a drafty broke down old castle it must be better!
I have been to Ireland more than once and have been privey to some of,the behind the scenes, We don to get the best for sure …and a lot of,their horses don’t adapt to,our weather, footing and superior feed n forage. Their PPE ideas are not always in sinc with ours either.

[Wits_End_Eventing]

[QUOTE=mareslave;7860495]
Fortunately or not so fortunately, event horses are made. It is about heart, partnership and horsemanship. We don’t do so well here in the US because we try to buy our way, not build it. Hence the reason we don’t see a lot of young US bred horses out there . It takes too long to develop them for our riders. The’do rather go buy something than train it…[/QUOTE]

I second this and would also add that often upper level US riders are buying horses without enough thoroughbred blood. We run pedigrees on horses people are bringing over out of curiosity, and they are often <50% TB blood. From our research, the chance they will make successful CCI**** horses is slim. While a horse may be stunning at the horse trials even through the three star level, if they do not have enough blood, they just are very unlikely to be successful at the CCI**** level.

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=Wits End Eventing;7874939]
I second this and would also add that often upper level US riders are buying horses without enough thoroughbred blood. We run pedigrees on horses people are bringing over out of curiosity, and they are often <50% TB blood. From our research, the chance they will make successful CCI**** horses is slim. While a horse may be stunning at the horse trials even through the three star level, if they do not have enough blood, they just are very unlikely to be successful at the CCI**** level.[/QUOTE]

I couldn’t agree more with this. Phillip Dutton certainly seems to be going in that direction. But one has to think that the vast majority of their competition horses are never aimed at the 4* level. There is only one 4* in the US, and most Rolex riders don’t ship to the European 4s. In other words, the need for a true 4 horse is VERY small. The years when there are Games means that people in North America may need one true 4* horse every other year. But the money in training, selling and riding other people’s horses is just as good at 3* and below for them.

[M_O_Connor]

Our 2012 colt by Jaguar Mail out of a 1/2 TB dam (5/8 TB) fits the OP’s description.

He’s big, agile, a good mover, looks to be super athletic in the free jump chute, and eager to please.

http://www.innerbayequestrian.com/cougar-trail.html

[Equibrit]

Try Canada; http://cl.jroo.me/z3/g/O/I/e/a.baa-dressage-moose.jpg

[secretariat]

There are a plenitude of UL prospects in North America, but our sheer size and lack of organization is a major detriment. Both NA and Europe (as well as Australia and NZ) have more quality horses than you can ever experience. In all cases, I’d strongly advise a reputable agent.

I suspect that some of the allure of Europe is romantic but the major advantage is the intense concentration of eventers; it’s less of drive to cover the entirety of Europe than Texas. Being able to see many, many horses in a short period of time (on Megan’s trips, she routinely SITS ON - not just sees, but sits on - more than 100 horses in six days or less; on her last trip, she sat on 101 horses and wanted 99 of them) is another. And obviously, they have awesome horses which impress us A LOT. We’ve imported 7 in less than a year.

But North America has just as many, just as awesome, and usually with a high % of TB blood, but be careful of modern TB breeding. We’ve bred 17 in the last 5 years and average selling 25 a year; our sales graduates include horses from starter through Rolex. I’ve got 2 colts on the ground - a 2 yo and a weanling - that I’m confident are the best in the world, at least the best we’ve ever bred. We’ve got 3 year olds with world class breeding (“prospects”) we just backed. We’ve got horses (more than prospects?) running Intermediate and Preliminary - so please understand these horses are available in NA, many of them from the others posting on this thread. Look at them, its easy and cheap.

The North American industry is probably not organized enough to be able to show you 100 horses in 6 days (but we can always show you 10 in 1 or 2 - most people don’t have Megan’s stamina - and our horses are always high in % TB (usually 50 - 100%, we still prefer our TB’s but we have to provide what the market wants)). The Va/Pa/Md areas, if organized, could probably compete with Europe both geographically and in quality/quantity of horses. But, IMO, neither the perception nor the organization are in place (yet).

And please don’t get lost in the Romance. Our horses growing up live outside 24/7 (with shelter) or when competing usually have 12 hour turnout - be cautious of hothouse flowers. They’re (almost) feral until they’re 3 and brought in to back. We routinely hack in 30 acre fields as well as the rings (both indoor and outdoor). Our riders can pop an XC jump anytime - either natural in the woods, or the 30-40 XC jumps in the fields the babies grow up with. My favorite picture is our 2009 foal crop playing on our bank complex. And our riders routinely hack through the woods to the back fields (deer and coyotes optional) and/or down the lane a mile or so to Antebellum for a horse trial, dressage test, or CT. And it’s a 7 minute trailer ride to either the Kentucky Horse Park or Masterson. I’m Kentucky Proud.

We encourage you to go to Europe to look for your lifetime horse. But we equally strongly encourage you to look in North America, and in my case in Kentucky - Lexington is the center of my world and IMO the center of the horse/eventing community. Give North America a try.

Howard Moore

[SportHorse08]

Some very Interesting View!

If you are still in Europe/Ireland I would recommend you contact Melanie Ashe her webiste is www.ardeosporthorses.com

[LisaO]

Ask Wendy Webster at W2 Holsteiners.

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=LisaO;7886111]
Ask Wendy Webster at W2 Holsteiners.[/QUOTE]

I’ll probably get flamed for mentioning this, but you have to be really careful about a 4* gallop/canter when shopping for an UL prospect. The Hunter offspring that I saw at Rolex last year seemed to be lacking that light, ground covering gallop and didn’t, IIRC, make it round the course. He had a very heavy XC pace and seemed to me to be pounding the ground.

That gallop and stamina are why blood is still thought to be necessary at the 4* level.

[szipi]

Like a lot of breeders, I mostly breed jumpers/dressage horses. Sometimes you raise/train a few that just scream event horse - I do train my youngsters on cross-country, with dressage being the foundation in the program. My stallion, Lotus T is also. 70% tb and was named potentially the best event sire in North America in an article by the USEA magazine.

Still, I have not found a reliable outlet to the event market, weather breeding or performance horses. Even when I manage to place a horse in the right hands, and the horse clearly works out, eventers seem to get stuck with the old habit of not buying based on bloodlines and what works, they tend to go for cheap and try to find the next rags-to-riches story.

Right now I have a 4yo Ariadus x Lasting Impression gelding that should be developed to be an international eventing superstar. He is built as a rock with good conformation, great feet and dry joints/tendons. He is 65% tb, but no tb in the first two generations. He has 3 good gaits, a superb jump - but at the same time he is super brave, forward and has a great gallop. Great mind though, never out of control. Does everything on cross-country, never hesitates and lives it.

I called up my eventing contacts, but absolutely no interest (I am not going to just give him away). Maybe I need to start my own thread asking advice on this! So, I’m just bringing him up as an upper level jumper prospect, he will be doing the 5yo YJC classes at HITS.

[ise]

Ryan Wood - Woodstock Eventing. We have 4 horses and 3 ponies with him - they are all homebreds of ours. We are very pleased with the training program and the results. Ryan also imports some nice prospects from Ireland.

[ellisrun]

Anyone have any thoughts on horses from South America? Specifically Argentinian WB’s? Random, but came across one in the US I liked. He was in SJ training, but for an amateur weenie eventer I quite liked him.

[weixiao]

Ellisrun- I rode with/for an Argentine for a long time as a JR and he had almost solely Argentine horses and a lot of them were really nice! The Henry Jota auction is in just a few days http://www.harashj.com/2013/ehome.html and you can see the offerings here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wEtnDFfLmk

You would probably have to do a bit of legwork to calculate blood in their pedigrees, my GUESS would be that several of them probably are not enough blood if you are looking for a 4* horse, but I don’t know that for fact and there are a lot of upper levels before 4* where you don’t need as much blood. So it depends what you are looking for. I haven’t seen the whole video but lot 3 and 7 were my picks from what I watched. Peter Atkins’ HJ Hampton is a graduate of this program.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=ellisrun;7891619]
Anyone have any thoughts on horses from South America? Specifically Argentinian WB’s? .[/QUOTE]

Most are jumper bred…and the same or similar bloodlines as you find in Europe and in the US. They have some very nice horses. For eventing though you would need to find ones with a high percentage of TB blood. South America is not yet known as a producer of either top event horses or event riders. Although there is some very nice TB blood down there (I knew a top UL event horse from Arg. but he was an OTTB)…it just hasn’t been their focus (as compared with say the jumpers or polo). So that wouldn’t be where I would go look for a top event prospect…but if you find an individual horse that you love or one already imported, I would judge the individual and not where he/she came from. It is more affordable to raise them down there…but after importing costs and quarantine…I don’t see you saving a ton of money on a prospect. If you find one that has been well handled and started well…maybe not as an eventer but as a jumper…you could possibly find a good deal. But unless you have personal connections down there or are already down there…I don’t see it a place where you are going to find a better/cheaper deal than you could already find in the states.

[ellisrun]

Thx weixiao:) I will certainly be watching that at work today:)

[weixiao]

I should have clarified that my experience with them was for SJ not eventing, but all but one of then was really very brave and I don’t think there was anything that looking back makes me think they wouldn’t have evented.