Which dressage stallions have the most swing/elasticity?

[candico]

I think Don Frederic is a bit of a freak of nature. Not that you wouldn’t be thrilled to get one like that, but not to be expected! Like Florencio and Quaterback, although they are great sires, I doubt they will reproduce their movement in that extreme. The hard part is figuring out the nick that gets those qualities even if the mare and sire may be somewhat lacking as far as being extreme, yet put together they pass it on. Also, most of those super buoyant guys are hard to keep the regularity in their gaits - kind of like having to stand in a row boat versus sit in one. Especiallly in movements such as the half passes, it seems easy to disrupt the swing so the horse ends up looking uneven - even with the most pro of riders, but in all they do tend to score super high… Overall, I think they are harder to keep sound, as you notice more of the top FEI horses are not those who won the Bundeschampionate.
Here in NA, I would say Freestyle, but like him to a more modern mare with a quicker and more powerful hind end and although many of the "F"s can look lithe and modern as youngsters, they do tend to get heavier as they age. I love Negro, but can see how one might not appreciate him if you are looking for a Don Frederic. He is more of a Grand Prix destined producer, then a head turner for the basic trot especially. He seems to stamp a canter that will easily find all the Grand Prix movements at an early age, plus piaffe and passage that are head turners. The "W"s do generally have an uncanny ability to swing their butts and like Florestan, it seems to be that the line has a stamp that is easy to recognize, you just have to decide whether you like that stamp!
Not that familiar with the "Don"s, but I do really like the video of David Blake on Don Gregory. Some Don Schufro’s have incredible movement, but others I have seen, duds. So the nick must be important there.

Not to hijack the thread, but speaking of Quaterback, does anyone have any thoughts on Quatenkoenig? Not sure if he is available yet, as he is very young, but the combination of the bloodlines looks interesting…

[Dan]

[QUOTE=candico;6355245]
I think Don Frederic is a bit of a freak of nature. Not that you wouldn’t be thrilled to get one like that, but not to be expected! Like Florencio and Quaterback, although they are great sires, I doubt they will reproduce their movement in that extreme. .[/QUOTE]

We will find out in a year. My San Amour mare is in foal to Don Frederic.

Dan

[alexandra]

[QUOTE=candico;6355245]
I think Don Frederic is a bit of a freak of nature. Not that you wouldn’t be thrilled to get one like that, but not to be expected! Like Florencio and Quaterback, although they are great sires, I doubt they will reproduce their movement in that extreme. […][/QUOTE]

Please go to the thread about him and read what I wrote there and understand why I would expect that a lot of his offspring will have the same sort of ability. But as in any cross: The stallion can not do miracles on mediocre mares…

[Donella]

I doubt they will reproduce their movement in that extreme.

Man, if I got even half of the movement that horse has I would be thrilled. I don’t need a clone, nor do I expect one when I breed to any stallion. It sounds like DF got a lot of his movement from his dam’s genetics.

Anyways, to me that horse screams elasticity!

[rodawn]

Candico is right in that a lot of times you have this horse with a vast amount of elasticity and it can sometimes interfere with the swing and fluidity of the gaits because elasticity does not translate into relaxation and you can only get swing if you have relaxation. In all levels of Dressage, but especially in upper levels, Swing, Evenness of gaits and Relaxation are keyly graded elements, as is elasticity. I would rather take a horse with slightly less elasticity as long as there is very good swing, fluidity and relaxation and mental attributes (aptitude for dressage). I would never forsake swing and evenness of gaits. Elasticity provides some pizzazz to the gaits, but some very elasticky horses go along looking unbalanced and hence uneven in their gaits. If you’re going for elastic, you need to make sure you also get swing, balance and a horse who is able to relax in order to get the fullness of their swing with true throughness, and then it balances out; otherwise, it’s too uppy-downy and not enough forwards.

[Donella]

I agree, that is why I asked for stallions that have both

[kdavies]

I have found that Romanov produces foals/horses with quite a bit of swing and elasticity. Of course, it seems more like it is the “right” combination of dam and sire that produces the enormous elasticity like Don Frederic.

[Crosiadore]

I love Romanov on Don Schufro mares …when they get the “Don Schufro” hind leg. What I find interesting is Romanov is coming 12 this year. I so rarely see any of his get come through Auctions or in the US out there competing. What am I missing? Not trying to be negative as I like the stallion. and in Denmark his offspring do well. Just curious about the rest.

[kdavies]

Agreed about the Romanov hind leg . . . I find that he does not pass on that dragging hind leg very often though. . . .
I don’t know where all the Romanov offspring are . .most that are ages 6,7, and 8 seem to be located in Denmark I guess? I’ve only come across younger ones (foals to 4 years old) in the US and Germany. . . . . But he is one of those stallions that I am always interested in looking at/purchasing the offspring.

I do think he produces a little late maturing offspring . . they don’t start to look like a real horse until age 4 or 5. (opposite of Sandro Hits which definitely look mature at an earlier age in general)

[candico]

It’s not that I think Don Frederic will be a disappointment as far as a breeding stallion. It is more that I have read studies, Dutch I believe, that movement is the least heritable trait behind most conformation points. I can see how the shape of the Wolkentanz hind end can make it most likely that the offspring will have the desired type of movement. So then how many generations does that transcend? And perhaps not to cross with a more pre potent line that would change that engine?
It would be interesting to compare these extreme movers and points of conformation to see why the mechanics allow for such freedom yet with power at the same time. Also what traits put a wrench in it…
I do know of some pro’s who with their big money sponsors have had the chance to sit on some of these super movers. They say awesome for going round and round, but difficult to imagine getting it to Grand Prix. Usually they suggest to the client if they really want that one, leave it in Europe. Considering most in NA do not ride like the average European rider, a great mind and ease of trainability with a handsome exterior seems to be what we need more from our local breeders. That said, if I had a really nice mare I’d take a chance a breed to any one of these super movers because I’d just be content going round and round or even watching someone else go round and round all day on a horse that moves like that. And the chances of getting one produced are far better than that of winning the lottery so I could actually buy one already made!

[Donella]

I agree that they don’t need to be huge movers, nor can most people here ride them. However, a dressage horse needs to use it’s back well , that part is non negotiable to me.

[candico]

Hey, I hear ya on the must have’s and such, especially since we do have plenty enough who disappointedly don’t use their backs and so many that you wonder if they even know they have a hind end at all… I hate having a horse that you have to keep thwacking it on the hind end to remind the horse to think about using it, and then not getting tension because you just thwacked it. Ugh.
I just checked your website, Donella, and I think you should be telling us your opinion on which lines improve swing and elasticity? You have used some super stallions to mares with a very good foundation of rideability, capability in the bloodlines and pretty heads to boot! So far, which crosses do you think have added more to the movement? In my opinion, the picture of your retired guy coming across the diagonal is the quintessential example of what I would look for in a prospect. That hind end driving and elevating the front end - no “out the back door” business there!

[Beentheredonethat]

Hm. I don’t like what you guys are calling super movers like Quaterback and Sir Gregory. I see that it looks cool when you push these horses young, but as a rider, it’s really HARD to train and ride these horses. And what moves really cool and big doesn’t always grow to be able to actually do the dressage movements. (And, yes, I trained the other horse I bred to GP.)

Like I said, I have two Freestyle, and I think they’ll do well. Mom has that flashy movement you love, partly because she’s a pain in the ass. When she moves like that, it’s not good. That movement is less important than being able to train up the levels and keep the horse sound. That freaky movement often comes with a personality that’s hard to train, and doesn’t stay sound. What I really like about Freestyle besides the size and shorter back he added, and kept the movement, is his MIND. My green 4 year old has go and looks at things, and her big spook is to loooooooook. She does baby stuff, I get after her, and she goes, “oh, OK, I’ll do it that way.” Her mother will argue about it for years and have a hissy fit. That relaxation of mind allows the swing and elasticity because they just don’t get that upset about anything, and they are up for hugs ALL of the time, and in fact insist on them from any human nearby. Apparently they’re all the same. Nice to know what you’ll get from the stallion.

[springer]

Falsterbo and Sir Gregory.

So, I may be a bit biased. I have one of each. Both are based in the U.S., too. Perhaps someone should start a thread like this for U.S. based stallions. There ARE plenty to choose from.
Edited to add… both have approved sons.

[Donella]

I just checked your website, Donella, and I think you should be telling us your opinion on which lines improve swing and elasticity? You have used some super stallions to mares with a very good foundation of rideability, capability in the bloodlines and pretty heads to boot! So far, which crosses do you think have added more to the movement?

Thank you! I am no expert by any means and that’s why I posted this question, for some fresh insight. I think my Sir Donnerhall is very elastic, more so than her dam (but there is some tension, could swing more…especially in video she is fired up a bit) FWIW here is a video of her at 2 years old, fat and hairy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE_UJ6N11-U&feature=plcp

I don’t think “freak” movement necessarily means the horse uses it’s body well. Look at a horse like Vivaldi and in particular some of the popular Dutch stallions. Hind legs are electric (great) and tonnes of expression but yuck in the back (in my mind)…but still “huge” movers. Quaterback is not the same type of mover as Don Frederic…very different in fact. A horse that is a big mover but uses it’s bodywell is not going to be hard to ride or train…the opposite is true.

In my opinion, the picture of your retired guy coming across the diagonal is the quintessential example of what I would look for in a prospect

Thanks. To be honest he was a cheap local auction horse…half Standardbred but was a blast to ride and train. A few years ago in a clinic Robert Dover asked where in Europe we got him…Ha!

[Donella]

Here is another example in terms of swing AND elasticity…pretty close to my idea of IDEAL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36Sd_Ji70Q8

[springer]

@Donella;6363839

Here is another example in terms of swing AND elasticity…pretty close to my idea of IDEAL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36Sd_Ji70Q8

He is lovely. Don’t flame me, but don’t you think anything that nice exists in the US?

[Oakstable]

So what’s the fascination with the manure droppings?

Is that the typical wrapping on the legs for schooling?

[honeychile]

[QUOTE=springer;6364634]
He is lovely. Don’t flame me, but don’t you think anything that nice exists in the US?[/QUOTE]

I don’t think that is the point. Whether or not the horse is in Germany, US, or Timbuktu, it is simply an example of one that Donella finds to have the qualities she likes.

I don’t want this thread to become a US bred vs import debate. :winkgrin:

[candico]

Funny that my best mover is actually a Canadian thoroughbred that originally had a career as a jumper. When during a clinic we told Dietrich this, who resided in Canada, he said “No, this horse must be German!”
I gave up on breeding soon after I started because I wanted it to be so scientific, but it really is also an art. I would try to mathematically integrate things like the charts the Dutch use, the breeding indexes, gait scores, # of offspring competing etc. etc. I thought if I morphed a picture of the mare and stallion together, I could see exactly what I was going to get… Ha! But I did pour over lots of books and magazines from Europe to try and figure it out. The one thing that I read is that if an offspring had some trait to the extreme, the pendulum would start to swing back the other way in their offspring. Not sure when you hit that extreme as far as swing and elasticity, but like the fastest racehorse or the highest jumper is unlikely to produce something which will break its record. Of course, if a trait becomes a common goal amongst breeders, that trait will become more prevalent in the breed.
I don’t think you would go wrong with any of these stallions, but as you know you can breed the same mare to stallion a dozen times and get all sorts of results. But certain stallions do seem to carbon copy more than others and so that is where those in Europe are more privy to catching that trend more than those of us limited to YouTube or a few handful of local offspring.

Even when an American or Canadian, I assume, gets a really nice stallion they seem more often than not to keep them in Europe for several reasons, but mainly the number of mares to breed to… And generally, we have so few riders capable AND willing to do a youthful stallion. Also, we can’t compare as far as number of offspring to really gage what is being produced as easily as in Europe. So I assume that is why we gravitate toward looking at those stallions versus local ones.

But back to what you like Donella, I do think the B line may be where you will find the traits you wish for and a wide marketability as far as rideability that will suit both amateurs and pros. The Stella video is the only one that wouldn’t load for me, but love the other videos - so dramatic with the Adele music, etc. and chestnuts with Chrome to boot!