I think Benicio is a super cool horse and I adore his sire, but am I the only one who thinks he trots with his hind end way out behind?
Another one that oozes elasticity is Lemony’s Snicket. Only time will tell if he can pass that on.
the video posted to me does not show swing or elasticity. When a horse swings you should be able to see the back “pulsating” and the energy traveling from the hind foot over the back to the mouth, etc. and elasticity to me means gumby-ish aka boingy aka gooey…
a good example of elasticity and good use of the back is - at least at times - Damon Hill - eta of course i cant off the top find a good video showing that but i do know i have watched several where i thought he showed good degrees of swing and elasticity…
I think Benicio is a super cool horse and I adore his sire, but am I the only one who thinks he trots with his hind end way out behind?
Another one that oozes elasticity is Lemony’s Snicket. Only time will tell if he can pass that on
The hind leg isn’t perfect, but it’s good enough in my mind. Belissimo is a bit the same way I think. I agree re Lemony’s Nicket forsure, was just watching a video of him yesterday thinking same thing.
the video posted to me does not show swing or elasticity. When a horse swings you should be able to see the back “pulsating” and the energy traveling from the hind foot over the back to the mouth, etc. and elasticity to me means gumby-ish aka boingy aka gooey…
Are you kidding me? That horse is so fantastic in the body…at least in my mind. It looks like a dream to sit on.
I do agree Damon Hill, one of my favs.
no, not kidding…maybe the video was just not a good representation? I am just basing my comments on that vid…
Romanov
Romanov just got second at a Dutch Olympic qualifier and was beat by just a few points…unfortunately he is second to another Edward Gal mount! But, Romanov would have won had he done the rein back correctly…!!! Edward said more or less “give us a break, its only our 3rd Grand Prix together”. The rein back mistake had to be a misunderstood cue and probably something they did not practice…oh well. 
Thats how it goes sometimes. Still, he is a very, very elastic horse and he got 8 for gaits from all 5 judges which was better than the horse who beat him got. And this is Grand Prix!! Lots of nice moving stallions never make it that far, and can’t do all the moves right? Oh, Romanov beat Peter Minderhoud’s horse and Anky’s too!!
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I like Sir Donnerhall with the right mare… Here’s a 2-year old I bred…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBiPitRs4BA
[QUOTE=siegi b.;6367234]
I like Sir Donnerhall with the right mare…[/QUOTE]
In your opinion, what type of mare is right for Sir Donnerhall?
With respect I thought Donella’s 2yo is a beautiful horse but was tight in her back and showing much tension in her video, the major enemies of swing and elasticity. She probably is elastic, she just wasn’t showing it in that video.
For comparison (not a good one but the best I’ve got) here’s my 6yo Le Rouge mare doing travers across the diagonal. The steps right at the end are what I want a horse to show throughout a test: elevation, elasticity and no tension.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26KWk7H0A-4&feature=youtube_gdata_player
IME Le Rouge is a superb sire. He passes on 3 good paces, good conformation and a beautiful mind that is just the right mix of reactive and calm.
Benicio sure is a cool horse, but I have to say watching the video I could not stop watching Anna Sophie Fiebelkorn ride, what a beautiful rider. If that is her normal training routine I love it. Nice partnership.
I like the stallion a lot fwiw. I don’t think he is perfect but he looks sound and steady with a good mind and correct gaits with just enough flash about him. Some of the things about him make me wonder how he would do at GP, is that where they are aiming him?
PP, I agree with you totally about Benicio. I find him one of the most appealing stallions I have seen in awhile. If his semen weren’t so expensive, I would certainly breed to him.
To me elasticity means that the horse can show a wide range of expression in it’s gate…it can go forward and back without losing rhythm. Horses that are not elastic may look nice in one trot but when you try and push them through a bit more or forward a bit more they just move the legs faster, lose rhythm ect. Maybe we have different ideas of elasticity.
My Sir Donnerhall (like her sire) looks elastic to me …but of course she is fired up so there is tension, tail is up…she is not swinging. Tension prevents maximal elasticity from showing itself but I don’t think it completely takes away one’s ability to recognize elasticity.
SS and Siegi, both nice horses!
I think you’re right Donella, we do have different ideas of elasticity. What you describe is what I call “adjustability” and a horse can be very adjustable, going effortlessly from collection to extension and back again without having any elasticity at all.
To me elasticity is a way of moving that is graceful and loose and powerful. Its rare, its difficult to produce and its even harder to keep intact throughout a horse’s training to GP. In fact I can’t think of a major GP horse at the moment who is very elastic. Valegro is powerful and adjustable and obedient but I wouldn’t call him elastic. Uthopia is graceful and energetic and supple but not particularly elastic. Mistral Hojris moves like a panther so maybe he has a degree of elasticity in his way of going?
I think the above shows that elasticity is not a prerequisite for becoming a top GP horse. Its more important for young horse classes and sales when a horse is not yet under saddle. It isn’t something that I have at the top of my list of Must Haves when I’m horse hunting. A good mind and a quick hind leg with enormous freedom through the shoulder are the top 3 things on my wish list.
[QUOTE=stolensilver;6367865]
I think you’re right Donella, we do have different ideas of elasticity. What you describe is what I call “adjustability” and a horse can be very adjustable, going effortlessly from collection to extension and back again without having any elasticity at all.
To me elasticity is a way of moving that is graceful and loose and powerful. Its rare, its difficult to produce and its even harder to keep intact throughout a horse’s training to GP. In fact I can’t think of a major GP horse at the moment who is very elastic. Valegro is powerful and adjustable and obedient but I wouldn’t call him elastic. Uthopia is graceful and energetic and supple but not particularly elastic. Mistral Hojris moves like a panther so maybe he has a degree of elasticity in his way of going?
I think the above shows that elasticity is not a prerequisite for becoming a top GP horse. Its more important for young horse classes and sales when a horse is not yet under saddle. It isn’t something that I have at the top of my list of Must Haves when I’m horse hunting. A good mind and a quick hind leg with enormous freedom through the shoulder are the top 3 things on my wish list.[/QUOTE]
This. In fact, some of the very nature of training at the GP removes some of the elasticity in favor of lithe, velvety-smooth swing and suppleness, and effortless gracefulness.
See I don’t think a horse can be adjustable without being elastic. I have also heard elasticity described as “accordion like” but that would also describe the term “adjustable” Elasticity should not be an elusive quality (elasticity that is off the charts would be just like a horse that shows a “10” in anything, which would be indeed rare)…
I am assuming that is the reason it is part of the judging system of most warmblood associations ie when you take your warmblood mare to the inspection she is scored on “swing and elasticity”. It is expected that good three year old’s show swing and elasticity…if it were this rare, elusive quality that is different from what I described above then I doubt it would be part of the standard by which they judge young horses in hand. What do you think they are looking at when they judge these qualities in three year olds?
This. In fact, some of the very nature of training at the GP removes some of the elasticity in favor of lithe, velvety-smooth swing and suppleness, and effortless gracefulness.
Can you explain this further please?
OK, when you train a horse up the levels you are basically asking them to engage their abs and move with controlled power. The myriad of changes of direction and pace and within the pace of a GP test are extremely muscularly demanding and test a horse’s gynasticism and strength to the maximum.
Elasticity on the other hand requires a certain amount of looseness in the muscles in order for it to be shown. You can’t do a passage and retain elasticity IMO. Same with piaffe and pirouettes. The muscular effort of those movements is so hard that even a horse who was enormously elastic as a youngster will lose that quality when they reach GP.
I suppose an easier way of putting it is a GP horse has to have a lot of high tone in their muscles in order to do the test. Elasticity on the other hand requires fairly low tone in the muscles so the horse flows over the ground. I think the two are mutually exclusive.
But if you lose elasticity as you train the horse, you gain strength and power and adjustability and balance. Good movers who are powerful and active and uphill and rhythmical (like Valegro, he was a young horse champion from the age of 4 onwards) retain those qualities and enhance them as they progress and gain more expression in their paces as they gain in strength.
I’ve never really thought about this in depth before, just known that elasticity is not something I especially look for in a prospect. Now I know why!
Well, it is an interesting conversation for sure and we all like different things.
See, I don’t think a horse that can piaffe and passage has lost it’s elasticity…they just take on a high degree of positive tension (likely what you mean by muscle tone). But there is no doubt in my mind that for a horse to learn transitions between piaffe and passage, to go from passage to extended trot ect ect the horse HAS to be inherently elastic/adjustable/good through the body. That doesn’t mean that the horse always looks loose because positive tension dominates in those movements. But to get there I think you need that elasticity/adjustability!
I keep reading in the verband magazines the importance of these qualities (ability to work through the body well) and like I said, they judge young horses on it when they assess them in hand. I am assuming they feel there is a correlation between swing and elasticity and rideability/ athleticism for sport??
Anyways, it is interesting and I think great we can share ideas on stuff like this
fwiw, this stallion, Don Frederic is praised for his high degree of elasicity as you can hear in this video.
and fwiw, i agree with Donella re: elasticity etc.
And I can see how one might not see it in the GP, but if you take most of the current top horses and see them warming up in more of a loose frame I think you would have a better point of comparison. For example, I remember a video of Steffen warming up either Ravel or Floriano and the horse just looks über elastic, loose, and swinging.
Now not having seen any SRS horses in warm up mode, would you say they lack elasticity? Carriage type Dutch horses? Would you say Holsteiners are less elastic as none have been suggested? Just think this is a very interesting conversation as far as what is elasticity?
I think people mix up what a “lofty” animal looks like and an elastic one.
Elastic is the ability to adjust like was said.
Suspension is the time in between foot falls and if they are very slow legged it doesnt always mean there is strength or the ability to adjust.
Lofty is just the actiony leg/knee and sometimes is the carriage horse movement without the full use of the back.
Elastic and lofty horses with suspension and strength and a quick hind seems to be the goal but oft times we are missing bunch or some of these things.
Not to hijack this thread, but I think it is very interesting to read especially since the topic moved away from the stallions towards the meaning of elasticity…
My contribution
- a three year old, in my opinion very elastic young horse. This one is not backed yet and in this video there should be no tension. But I believe, you can still see what some people here tried to explain.
