Which dressage stallions have the most swing/elasticity?

[rodawn]

[QUOTE=Donella;6368065]
Well, it is an interesting conversation for sure and we all like different things.

See, I don’t think a horse that can piaffe and passage has lost it’s elasticity…they just take on a high degree of positive tension (likely what you mean by muscle tone). But there is no doubt in my mind that for a horse to learn transitions between piaffe and passage, to go from passage to extended trot ect ect the horse HAS to be inherently elastic/adjustable/good through the body. That doesn’t mean that the horse always looks loose because positive tension dominates in those movements. But to get there I think you need that elasticity/adjustability!

I keep reading in the verband magazines the importance of these qualities (ability to work through the body well) and like I said, they judge young horses on it when they assess them in hand. I am assuming they feel there is a correlation between swing and elasticity and rideability/ athleticism for sport??

Anyways, it is interesting and I think great we can share ideas on stuff like this :)[/QUOTE]

Stolensilver is ABSOLUTELY correct. It is an excellent description, actually.

If you even watch a horse at liberty perform the piaffe or passage, they lose the elasticity to quite a degree.

Does that Grand Prix horse show elasticity at freedom again when turned loose in their paddock? Yes. But under saddle, the demands of the Grand Prix movements favor the litheness velvety-smoothness instead. Warmup of the GP horse is where they best show their elasticity, quality of gaits, suppleness. Then, as the warmup proceeds past into the real work and the demands of strength take off, they maintain their suppleness and litheness, but the movements go more towards floating gracefulness, velvety smooth. Then in the cool down, they once again bring more elasticity and spring to the step.

[Donella]

Stolensilver is ABSOLUTELY correct. It is an excellent description, actually

The text you quoted is my description …?

And I can see how one might not see it in the GP, but if you take most of the current top horses and see them warming up in more of a loose frame I think you would have a better point of comparison. For example, I remember a video of Steffen warming up either Ravel or Floriano and the horse just looks über elastic, loose, and swinging.
Now not having seen any SRS horses in warm up mode, would you say they lack elasticity? Carriage type Dutch horses? Would you say Holsteiners are less elastic as none have been suggested? Just think this is a very interesting conversation as far as what is elasticity?

I am glad you brought this up. Ok, I am going to generalize (realizing there ARE exceptions) but the Iberian horses are a great example of a breed that lacks elasticity and use of the back. We bought a Lusitano stallion a few months ago and trying to find one that actually swings even just a tiny bit was a big challenge. These horses always look so amazing in photos or slow motion, but the average Iberian horse is totally nonadjustable…they are so tight in the back that they hardly ever overtrack at the walk and they have one trot. Yes, they CAN sit amazingly well, super agile, athletic horses but elastic they are not. You try to push them through a bit more and their gait just gets quicker and more frantic. Obviously the ones that have some elasticity make fantastic dressage horses but it is a rarity in the breed at least from what I have seen. They are a great example of WHY we SHOULD be focusing on breeding horses with inherent swing and elasticity.

The Lipizzaner is a different breed …I am not familiar with the breed enough to say. The one we had at my place a few years ago was actually quite elastic…

Manni, the example you posted is right on!! That one moves very similar to my Sir D filly when she is relaxed. I can just imagine that if someone pushed yours more forward the trot would just get bigger and more expressive. That is an elastic youngster!

[rodawn]

LOL Donella - Because it was an answer to your post… and I agreed with Stolensilver. Since my post, I was trying to think of how might be another way to say it… it’s not like the horse loses the elasticity because a horse born with elasticity doesn’t lose it. It’s always there. It’s more like it morphs into something better, something smoother, more silky, more velvety. Like butter is butter, but when it’s creamed it’s different, but still butter.

Great conversation, by the way.

[candico]

I was just thinking that despite the whole baroque horse obsession a few years ago, where even all the BNTs were buying and advocating especially Lusitano’s, I only see one at Gladstone…
And as far as the Grand Prix, wouldn’t you say that the collected trot on the short side to extended trot would demonstrate elasticity? Or extended canter into a piroette? And can the extended walk demonstrate swing and elasticity?
Also, can a horse that lacks any suspension still be considered elastic? Does elasticity equal horizontal adjustability or some vertical as well?

[Donella]

Rodawn, I think I agree with you but my perception was that SS implies that swing and elasticity are rare qualities in a horse and not qualities she looks for because they make the horse harder to ride? That is not what it appears you are saying (nor am I).

Candico, I am not sure suspension is part of it but one would think so (hard to picture a horse with a large range of adjustability without suspension?)? I mean to get that GP horse that can score highly in all of those movements they need to have everything, not only the swing and elasticity but power, ability to collect, super hind legs ect ect. It all comes together in a great GP horses.

I found this interesting in regards to Holsteiners, in an article written by the very knowledgable German breeder Jens Meyer:

" Fifteen years ago, it was fashionable to try and breed a Holstein dressage horse. You go and look at them at the stallion selection when they are two and a half, and wow, very good movement – but when you go to ride them – no movement. This is a problem, the horses can’t work through the back, they are not swinging, and in the end, not dressage horses"

And:

"So when you find a pedigree that is half Holstein and half Hanoverian and use them as a dressage horse, the risk is high that you have a horse with no swinging back – it’s best not to buy those problems, they come by themselves.”

[candico]

Hmmm… So then one might look at Wizard, for instance, and say that the Weltmeyer was potent enough to be put to a Holsteiner mare with good results. With that long back of his, that Weltmeyer hind end is almost a necessity to make it work. And Calecto, who is pure Holsteiner in my mind does seem more of a powerhouse with tons of suspension, but perhaps not as elastic? Just trying to get equal examples of impressive horses who have differing strengths which make them impressive. It does seem the Holsteiners who were any good for dressage were commandeered by the KWPN or Danish…
So then, can we judge lines in their ability to overcome another lines’ inability for swing, elasticity, a rideable back, etc to edge them ahead as far as their importance in the breeding shed versus the individual who is defined as most elastic of them all? There are several Sir Donnerhall and B line horses I like, but not sure they could improve upon as much as the W family in general. But then again, some felt Weltmeyer’s rideability was awful - and I loved the comment I read somewhere that Florestans’ give their riders a very good feeling even though they may not look so impressive. Of the amateur field, far more can effectively sit the trot of a Florestan than can sit the Weltmeyers. Then there is the question of if a horse is elastic and swings does that automatically equal rideability in at least the basic gaits? And how much do we define rideability in respect to the average amateur to that for a pro? Can a pro sit on a prospect and love it for it’s rideability where an Ammie says “no way!” Very interesting to think about.

[Donella]

Then there is the question of if a horse is elastic and swings does that automatically equal rideability in at least the basic gaits? And how much do we define rideability in respect to the average amateur to that for a pro? Can a pro sit on a prospect and love it for it’s rideability where an Ammie says “no way!” Very interesting to think about.

Yes, I think a big part of rideability is how the horse uses itself. It isn’t all of it…of course the horse has to want to work for you ect. There are many factors that combine to make a horse rideable. On the same token, rideability has nothing to do with who is riding it and everything to do with how trainable a horse is for the sport it was bred for. A horse doesn’t have poor rideability because it’s gaits are too big for an nonathletic , unskilled rider to ride…you know?

[elandalefarm]

I’m curious about what the level of experience is in this thread. How many posters here have bred a horse which has reached grand prix level in dressage, or ridden at that level?

[fairtheewell]

Peron was an extremely elastic horse. Too bad he didn’t really breed on… I can’t find any footage of him for some reason.

[Ibehorsepoor]

[QUOTE=elandalefarm;6376811]
I’m curious about what the level of experience is in this thread. How many posters here have bred a horse which has reached grand prix level in dressage, or ridden at that level?[/QUOTE]

Valid Point!:yes:

[Formosus]

Quote:
Originally Posted by elandalefarm
I’m curious about what the level of experience is in this thread. How many posters here have bred a horse which has reached grand prix level in dressage, or ridden at that level?

Valid Point!

…for so many threads on this board, not just this one, but in this case I think we had the contribution of quite experience riders and trainers.

[Donella]

I’m curious about what the level of experience is in this thread. How many posters here have bred a horse which has reached grand prix level in dressage, or ridden at that level?

I certainly don’t claim to be uber experienced by any means …my breeding program is quite young , with my oldest being four years old. I am also not a lifelong dressage rider but have ridden/trained FEI level dressage (my last horse was schooling all the gp before he had to be retired ). My SO is an experienced young horse trainer having spend lots of time in Germany with an internationally successful dressage rider who has won the world championships for young dressage horses and has coached the German young rider team. Our business focuses on training and developing young horses. My trainer/coach who keeps her horses at my place has been short listed for the team more than once. So again, I am by no means an expert but do have some experience in the sport.

I think quite a few of the posters here are successful breeders and riders (I know SS has trained/ridden her own in FEI level sport)…? On the other hand, if we all knew everything there is/was to know about both the sport and breeding for the sport then we wouldn’t be having this discussion. The purpose is to share ideas/experiences and to gain knowledge that way…

Elendale, I would like to hear what you think re elasticity/swing ect…