Which level delineates horse/rider proficiency??

[Lusoluv]

A while back a dressage magazine article said between first and second level the tests require a competency where most amateurs start to drop off. Many riders can get a horse on the bit and W/T/C competently for training and first level. But once the skills for shoulder-in, travers/renvers, halfpass are needed, many riders struggle. So at 2nd, 3rd level+, you start to see a big drop in ridership. This is a general observation…

As lower level eventers, we were wondering what is the Eventing equivalent? At what level do the XC questions and SJ height/course technicality start becoming a noticeable filter for the average ammy eventer? We thought perhaps between Novice and Training?

[OverandOnward]

Starter, aka “speed bump eventing”, based on a recent starter class I watched. :winkgrin: There were those who cruised around nicely, and those with horses skittering around the obstacles rather than over them, the horses taking advantage of all that open acreage around the jump. Riders who have experiences like that at starter often do not continue to compete in horse trials, although they may enjoy schooling.

Actually that’s a tongue-in-cheek answer (aka ‘snark’ I suppose). Others will answer from a better range of experience with riders at all levels.

To me, eventing requires a higher level of preparedness than most other disciplines simply because, on cross-country, the rider is sitting on a horse in the horse’s natural element - the big outdoors with no arena fences. It requires a fair amount of riding savvy just to be there, to control the natural instincts that can be highly stimulated in that environment. And also direct a horse over a variety of terrain and types of obstacles. Funny enough, it seems to be the ground-level obstacles such as the ditch, bank and water that so often prove to be the greatest challenge to getting the performance from the horse.

So based on my limited experience, the s hits the f, that is, the rubber meets the road, on the first cross-country school. Those who are not ready are immediately separated from the herd - figuratively and literally.

There is probably a higher level that is a better measure of those who will be BN/N Lifers (like me) and those who will go on. And as in dressage or any sport disciplines, ambition to go higher has a lot to do with it - I’m guessing you are asking about those who are thinking of going higher.

[enjoytheride]

I’d say between Novice and Training. Novice is really just 3 inches over BN with not much more difficult combinations (she says having never ridden it). Training is where the fences get both bigger but the combinations become more difficult.

[Scribbler]

@Lusoluv

A while back a dressage magazine article said between first and second level the tests require a competency where most amateurs start to drop off. Many riders can get a horse on the bit and W/T/C competently for training and first level. But once the skills for shoulder-in, travers/renvers, halfpass are needed, many riders struggle. So at 2nd, 3rd level+, you start to see a big drop in ridership. This is a general observation…

As lower level eventers, we were wondering what is the Eventing equivalent? At what level do the XC questions and SJ height/course technicality start becoming a noticeable filter for the average ammy eventer? We thought perhaps between Novice and Training?

I would say the big roadblock in moving up to 2nd and 3rd level is not that these things are so difficult. It is that the horses are started incorrectly and hastily at training and 1st level, and the holes in the training start to show up there. It’s true you need to be a competent intermediate rider to do a shoulder in or a half pass, but they aren’t that difficult on a well-balanced horse.

I say this after also seeing a number of low level pros hit the same roadblock.

[Highflyer]

I think most horses and riders can get through training and first level dressage, and bn and novice eventing. Training (like second) is where suitability for the horse and fitness for the rider start to be a factor. The difference between prelim and third is that bad dressage doesn’t get you killed or injured. I think it’s true for jumpers and hunters as well-- most horses can do 3’ and many can do 3’3 but 3’6 is where they have to have a bit of ability.

[OverandOnward]

@Scribbler

I would say the big roadblock in moving up to 2nd and 3rd level is not that these things are so difficult. It is that the horses are started incorrectly and hastily at training and 1st level, and the holes in the training start to show up there. It’s true you need to be a competent intermediate rider to do a shoulder in or a half pass, but they aren’t that difficult on a well-balanced horse.

I say this after also seeing a number of low level pros hit the same roadblock.

This is an excellent point - when hasty full-of-holes training matters less, and when it suddenly becomes a showstopper.

It definitely shows up when horses go from horse trails Novice up to Training. Suddenly the good water horse freezes at the top of the down bank to water; they can’t just gallop madly over the ditch because there are jumps one and two strides in front of and behind it … that type of thing.

[EventerAJ]

I think Preliminary level is what separates “men from boys,” figuratively speaking. Prelim xc questions start to demand straightness (corners, angles, skinnies), jumping out of a gallop rhythm, and creating different balances (coffin canter, riding obstacles with designed terrain, etc). The jumps are big enough that horses/riders must have a level of competence and experience, and a feel for a distance. Most horses, and many ponies, can make time easily at Training level-- there isn’t much change between “safe jumping speed” and “gallop between fences.” Prelim is when time penalties are more likely to come into play, as riders must conscientiously slow down, and go again. Prelim is where so many riders feel like there is a huge jump between the levels, so much that the USEA added the new Modified level midway between T and P.

Prelim is the gateway to the upper levels. It’s where you start to find out if a horse has what it takes to go higher-- does he mind dropping into water, leaping big ditches, is he honest enough to hold a line to a skinny off a drop or a turn? I used to think there was a worthy level of horsemanship and skill necessary to achieve Prelim-- it’s when most horses need a carefully prepared fitness schedule, dedicated riding 6 days per week. The jumps are big enough that riders can’t just “wing it” on an average horse.

However, I’m not sure if I’m just paying attention more, or if it’s really true, but I think the level of competence has declined in some ways…I see a few more riders who don’t really belong at Prelim out there bombing around making spectators gasp. They’re on generous horses with mountains of scope who cover up a lack of skill, experience, and gloss over rider mistakes while still getting around. Sure, it happens at every level (probably of every riding discipline), but I think Prelim is the level where riders better ask themselves, Do I Really Know What I’m Doing Or Else My Horse Or I Could Get Really Hurt.

[Janet]

I’d say the transition between Training and Prelim.

First of all, that is where the “80/20 split” is. 80% of starts are at Training and below. 20 of starts are at Prelim and above.

Second, Prelim is where the holes in your training show up. Straightness. Truly between leg and hand.

Third, Prelim when you REALLY need to jump at SPEED.

[pony_grandma]

The search function with this new format truly sucks. There was a really good thread about the difficulties of moving up to preliminary and it is nowhere to be found. "move up to prelim’ certainly doesn’t work… This angsts me because there is so much good information that has been shared overtime. I FEEL LIKE THE FORUM HAS SUFFERED FOR THIS. Some new person comes on here and ends up asking a perpetually repeated question and no one really wants to/or feels like retyping it all over again.

[brody]

At over 1000 posts the op isn’t exactly new

[ladyj79]

To hell with new people, i want an easy search function :lol::lol::lol:

while pros say between training and prelim, i think the bulk of ammie riders it’s between novice and training. That’s when I knew I wasn’t ever going to be a real eventer :eek: when my trainer would take me to school cc and say jump that and that and that and I would say I’ll jump that, go around that and I’m not jumping down that hill :lol: right out!

[mfleming13]

I think the big difference is between training/prelim as well. Most horses can get around a training provided they enjoy their job and have been relatively well schooled up until that point. Most riders can get around a training as well, and the jumps/combinations are forgiving enough to allow mistakes.

At preliminary, as a rider you have to be so much more organized. Your horse has to show up to play, you can kick and pull a horse around a training but you’ll get yourself into trouble really fast if you try to do that at prelim or above. It’s also the first time you’re really asked to gallop, and I know I ran my first few very slow because the new level was hard enough - we added the speed in once we were certain my mare understood her new job description.

[LadyB]

Currently experiencing the Training to Prelim jump.

Novice and BN, you can make mistakes and still get around, many riders love that. Plus when it’s a hobby with a full time job, it’s easier to pop around and have fun at the lower levels and not feel the pressure of being fit enough to get around. The bigger the jumps, the faster the speed, the more demand of work in dressage, not everyone has time to put the work in to be able to aim for those higher levels.

I think most stick to N and BN, some will try to dabble in training, but usually not for long or not as much. Prelim, in Canada, either you want to go somewhere and be an UL rider or your horse can do it. I find the UL’s lack in Canada. People are happier and feel safer with the smaller jumps, the slower speed, the less technical questions and less demanding fitness. Most at the lower levels are doing it for fun and just want to enjoy it.

I found going from PT(BN) to Training was hard, but then I attempted Prelim last year after being at Training level for 5 years (because we had lots of holes, and they were never fixed) and found Prelim to make me poop my pants. I remember sitting in the start box and totally opting to call it a day because I wanted to barf. Made it around and it was the most thrilling experience, but the questions were tougher, the straightness was demanded and the jumps were huge. But the dressage was fun, with more happening and more movements and more technical things it’s definitely more asked of horse and rider, but definitely more fun.

I would say that Prelim is the point where you need to know wtf you’re doing. The holes in your training show, with easier run outs, rails, crappy dressage tests because you’re not forward and fluid. Everything is asked more of rider and horse, and either you’ve got it, or you need to learn it.

[pony_grandma]

https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/f…ht=move+Prelim

I found the thread, I had to scroll back through the pages of my own posts. This is an excellent resource with a lot of good commentary! I’ll add it to the stickys.

And the 'new people" reference was not referring to the OP but was meant to be a catch-all term and for the questions that routinely get repeated here - like the I am going to Rolex for the first time ones.

[Janet]

while pros say between training and prelim, i think the bulk of ammie riders it’s between novice and training

I am one of the ones who says Tr/Prelim, and I am very much an amateur-

• Primary breadwinner
• 40+ hrs /week (IT/Telecom)
• ~3 hr/day commute.

I can get and keep a horse Training fit and “tuned” with intermittent lessons, and still have a bit of a life.
Can’t do that for Prelim

[JP60]

The OP referred to Competency so that is what I’d address. I do find statements like this to be somewhat marginalizing of people. “You are just not good enough to do [fill in the blank]” when we may not know or understand what drives, motivates, or drags on anyone’s process of learning or competition.

As to competency, I would generally agree that the jump between Training and Prelim requires much much more effort from a Rider/Horse combination that if not approached correctly, could yield disastrous results. Even though I am only now dipping my feet into the Training Level, I’ve watched a number of my trainer’s students work to make the jump, but only one adult in the eight years I’ve trained there. I feel that for adult riders either coming back or starting out, they live a life that cannot easily sustain the work effort required to move higher. Full time job, family, costs etc. I do not see them staying at a level as a question of potential competence, but making good judgement that they would sacrifice quality at that level.

One other observation is that I see very competent and quality riders at the Novice and Training Levels while seeing people who create cringes at Prelim and above. A certain 4* rider would not be viewed as competent, but marginally capable to ride at that level. A competent Rider is one who factors both the horse and rider’s abilities into making that decision to move up or take on more effort.

Summed up, the decision factors for moving up are first based on life factors that can accept the increase in workload and maintenance, but once the decision is made, does the Rider have the willingness to refine the capability to ride at that level to one of being competent to stay at that level. Sterling and I have the capability to ride at Training, but are still working to be competent at Training as well. We may never see Prelim, because of costs, job, time, but not because I don’t think we could make the effort and learn how to be safe and well at the level.

[Synthesis]

@Highflyer

I think most horses and riders can get through training and first level dressage, and bn and novice eventing. Training (like second) is where suitability for the horse and fitness for the rider start to be a factor. The difference between prelim and third is that bad dressage doesn’t get you killed or injured. I think it’s true for jumpers and hunters as well-- most horses can do 3’ and many can do 3’3 but 3’6 is where they have to have a bit of ability.

Most horses can do 3’6" as well. The problem is the rider and room for error. At 3’, most horses don’t have to rock back much, if at all to clear the fence. They just have to yank their legs up. Hell, I once had a horse walk over a 2’9" gate one leg at a time. (Long story, not the intended outcome) Its pretty much the height where the forelegs meet the chest.

But at 3’3" the bar is usually into the actual chest, and definitely there at 3’6". The horse actually has to jump, making it harder to compensate for our mistakes. They can’t come in to the fence at a crawl or a sonic speeds, nor can they get over from underneath or the hail-mary long spot. This is the level where we have to have a bit of ability. We no longer have the option of saying ‘oops’ without our horse really having to dig us out of a hole.

In fact, if you watch the lower level jumpers, 3’3" is pretty much where the yee-haw land race over speedbumps riding stops. Most can’t do it without demolishing the course

[LadyB]

@Janet

I am one of the ones who says Tr/Prelim, and I am very much an amateur-

• Primary breadwinner
• 40+ hers /week (IT/Telecom)
• ~3 hr/day commute.

I can get and keep a horse Training fit and “tuned” with intermittent lessons, and still have a bit of a life.
Can’t do that for Prelim

I live on a little hobby farm with 4 horses, with stalls. I also work a 730-430(3 days a week and 730-530 2 days a week) job, as well as ride 2 horses. I did 2 Prelim last year, the first one was a bust and the 2nd we completed. It’s a lot of work and I do wonder if I will ever get it, plus the money, it’s a lot to afford. Between trailering/gas, lessons, schooling costs, and shows, and then all the added every day horse costs, it’s a lot. Training level fitness was fairly easy, but to go Prelim I’m trying super hard, but it’s exhausting and a lot of work for the average amateur with a 9-5 job.

For the record, I barely have a life.

[Twigster]

@ladyj79

while pros say between training and prelim, i think the bulk of ammie riders it’s between novice and training. That’s when I knew I wasn’t ever going to be a real eventer :eek: when my trainer would take me to school cc and say jump that and that and that and I would say I’ll jump that, go around that and I’m not jumping down that hill :lol: right out!

Lifelong weenie eventer here, and I also vote that it’s the Novice to Training Step, and all in the jumping phases. For me, who rides with much more of a dressage focus day-to-day and year-to-year, I think 3rd to 4th is what separates the wheat from the chaff so to speak. I think almost any sound horse can passably (6’s) execute a single flying change and 3rd level collection and extension with enough diligent training.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Competency…I’d say novice to Training is the first filter. With another big filter at Training to Prelim.

Fitness…I’d say Training to Prelim. In other words…a rider can be more than competent, have the skills and the horse but the fitness first really comes in to play for both horse and rider at Prelim.

And ultimately for us desk jockies…I think lack of RIDING fitness takes out more of us than riding competency.

At prelim…they both factor in a lot more.