Which Trainer Would You Choose?

[reithme2]

I’m slowly picking up dressage with my former hunter OTTB. I say slowly because injuries and illness have been plaguing us the last few years BUT I think we are finally turning a new leaf despite it being 2020. Over the course of a year I’ve taken lessons from three different trainers (barn lets me bring in any trainer so long as they carry insurance). My goal is find one trainer to take bi weekly lessons with and hopefully see some progress with - which would you choose?

My goals are to learn to ride my horse correctly and get him going as well as he can (he has arthritis, downhill confirmation, long neck and back and was a war horse). Would be happy showing a few times a year locally at training level - maybe eventually first level?

Trainer 1 - Has her own facility and travels for lessons within a few minutes of her own farm
Focused on horses gate - worked on leg yields and spiraling in and out in trot and canter
Focused on inside leg to outside hand
Pushed for use of firm outside hand correction when my horse wanted to ignore half halts and run through my hand
Suggested using draw reins which I wasn’t a fan of - mostly because I don’t trust myself
When asking for halt wanted the horse to back up if he didn’t halt nicely (braced against the bit)

Cons - I really felt like this trainer was more pushy than what I want - I dont want to use ‘tools’ even if they lead to good results - again my goal isnt to go as far as possible but to ride correctly

Pros - Horse was going beautifully in lesson and the spiral in and out in trot to canter - back to trot spiral exercise was a great tip I still use often.

Trainer 2 - Assistant trainer at a large facility and travels for lessons a few days a week - came highly recommended
Focuses on my position a lot - not putting weight into stirrups/soft leg - hands together and down near withers - shoulders back and down
Wants to use as little aids/half halts as possible - Horse is anxious and needs to relax
Says horse has the ‘push’ needs the ‘sit’
Says focus on walk/trot until horse is more responsive to half halts and has multiple trots (slow/collected, medium, etc) before working on canter
Asks that I don’t keep my leg on - only use aids when needed nothing constant (again this makes sense but i feel like my horse falls behind my leg this way)
Says yes inside leg to outside rein but also outside leg to inside rein - should be able to ride both - Says horses big issue is he isnt straight
Told me not to worry if horse wants to brace against the bit at the halt to just give rein and eventually he’ll realize this isn’t an option?

Pros -
I like what shes saying and think it makes sense
Cheap
Already gives lessons at the barn so really easy to get on her schedule
When I watch her give other lessons I theoretically like her style - shes constantly saying ‘okay hes doing ‘x’ - correcty with ‘y’ - there or nope again’

Cons - I feel like my horse and I both struggle in lessons - i.e. I dont feel like I get a quality gate - horse is falling behind my leg - no obvious recourse when he ignores my half halts
When I ask what my half halts should look like/feel like - what variations to use trainer responds that there a hundred different half halts and that its something I need to feel out

Trainer 3 - Used to haver her own barn - now semi retired - judge
Focused on my position but also the importance of how it affected my horse
Lots of talk on theory and what you want to feel
Asked me to push the horse into the bridle at the halt with leg - not to let him back but also not to give until he gave

Pros - my favorite lesson and the one I got the most out of - loved that she backed up everything she asked me to do with WHY

Cons - EXPENSIVE - and trainer isn’t always available (judge and semi retired) so hard to get out

I think its pretty fair to assume that all three would do a decent job and despite differences are all trying to get us to the same goal. Trainer 3 is the obvious choice but consistent lessons would be difficult. My original thought was to lesson with trainer 2 as much as I can and bring in trainer 3 when possible. Again - I like what trainer 2 says but during the lessons I feel like I’m floundering a bit - but perhaps this will go away with time?

[Hawkridge]

Ask Trainer 3 how often she can commit to coming out to give you lessons…and if she can come out regularly (even if only once a month) I would stick with her. Are you able to go a month without lessons? If not, then use one of the other 2 trainers in between - but choose the one that is the most compatible with Trainer 3’s style.

[SillyHorse]

I would steer clear of any trainer who suggested you use draw reins. I’m also not a fan of asking a horse to back up when what you want is a halt. Even though focusing on gaits is important, trainer #1 would not be in the running for me. If you can afford #3, I think that’s your best bet.

[reithme2]

Thanks! Trainer 3 I can afford once a month but they travel south for the winter for months at a time.
I’d really like more consistent lessons - I guess the real question is does trainer 2 seem worth their time?
My plan at this point is to keep working with trainer 2 and see if things start to come full circle - again I think what they are saying makes sense its just been a struggle to put it together but maybe we both just need more time to figure one another out.

[Mersidoats]

Does Trainer 3 teach other trainers who stay in the area? If o… could you work with one of those? Consistency of approach is important.

[alibi_18]

@reithme2

(…) he has arthritis, downhill conformation, long neck and back and was a war horse (…)

He is sound? Would he stay sound with the type of training you are looking for?

Whatever the trainer you pick, s/he will need to take that into consideration.

Trainer 1 - firm outside hand correction when my horse wanted to ignore half halts and run through my hand
Suggested using draw reins which I wasn’t a fan of - mostly because I don’t trust myself
When asking for halt wanted the horse to back up if he didn’t halt nicely (braced against the bit)

Depending on how is done, but as a general rule, backing up shouldn’t be a « correction ».

It’s a movement - and those who use it as a correction have then trouble to have a horse that stays onto contact and happily doing it in a test.

Draw reins would be a big no for an arthritic horse at your level. You’re gonna hurt your horse. New training and efforts must be gradual and not forced.

Trainer 2 - Wants to use as little aids/half halts as possible - Horse is anxious and needs to relax
Says horse has the ‘push’ needs the ‘sit’
Says focus on walk/trot until horse is more responsive to half halts and has multiple trots (slow/collected, medium, etc) before working on canter
Asks that I don’t keep my leg on - only use aids when needed nothing constant (again this makes sense but i feel like my horse falls behind my leg this way)
Says yes inside leg to outside rein but also outside leg to inside rein - should be able to ride both - Says horses big issue is he isnt straight

The spiral exercices at the trot and canter with trainer #1 might have feel like it was helping keeping your horse focused and all but if he’s tense, crooked and bracing… Better focus on the walk and trot until the relaxation, which is the base of the training scale, is (re)established.

Told me not to worry if horse wants to brace against the bit at the halt to just give rein and eventually he’ll realize this isn’t an option?

Bracing at halt; You can work on independent flexions while not moving, but bracing yourself against your horse’s mouth is not a good solution - it actually puts the horse behind the contact.

Work on your connection while moving.
Once you’ll be able to push your horse onto contact, the halt will come.
It’s not something you have to work on repetitively.

Cons - I feel like my horse and I both struggle in lessons - i.e. I dont feel like I get a quality gait - horse is falling behind my leg - no obvious recourse when he ignores my half halts
When I ask what my half halts should look like/feel like - what variations to use trainer responds that there a hundred different half halts and that its something I need to feel out

Pulling onto the outside rein is not an half halt.
Half halting is more than just nagging your horse.

You indeed need to feel it but more importantly, you need to wait for it’s action before asking another one.

If you feel lost by trying not to give constant leg aids, of course you will feel that your horse is confused as well. He is used to your nagging.

But by nagging incessantly, you feel that you and your horse are working.

What do you want : A horse that needs nagging or a horse that will work on its own? The leg aids aren’t just meant to tell the horse to move off and forward.

Are you sure you were having quality gaits with Trainer 1 if the need of draw reins was mentioned?

Trainer 3 -
Focused on my position but also the importance of how it affected my horse
Lots of talk on theory and what you want to feel
Asked me to push the horse into the bridle at the halt with leg - not to let him back but also not to give until he gave

I don’t really understand the big deal with your halt. Was that a special demand you had with all the trainers?

Your position is indeed very important.

Pros - my favorite lesson and the one I got the most out of - loved that she backed up everything she asked me to do with WHY

Talking is good, until it is not.

Just make sure the lessons aren’t just theories… It may start like that; trainer needs to put the basics down and explain more in details what/how will be worked on, and get to know you; but afterward, exercices that complement the theories are even more important.

Did this trainer gave you homework?

Cons - EXPENSIVE - and trainer isn’t always available (judge and semi retired) so hard to get

It’s better to have quality than quantity, even in lessons.

I believe you are right with training with #2 and taking lessons occasionally with #3.

I would probably add some canter during lessons with #2, but more in a half seat/hunter style mode for now.
What is being done for the arthritic changes?

Having your horse « sit » at the canter needs a great deal of push from behind and good abdominal muscles - which I doubt your horse has.
That will come with good (non bracing) halt/trot and walk/trot transitions onto the bit.

[WildGooseChase]

I would go with trainer 3 when you can, but also take consistent lessons with trainer 1. There is no reason to limit yourself to one teacher at a time.

Trainer 2 seems improperly educated to me. Straightness isn’t achieved by letting the horse brace on aids. Some of the things you said she told you seem counterintuitive, while others make logical sense.

[Cameraine]

I would go with Trailer #3. Even if she can only come out once a month, she can give you homework to work on. You can always see if she’s up for looking at videos you can do in between if you can get videos done. I would much rather spend more money on quality education with longer periods in between then lessons with those who I feel aren’t giving me or my horse what I need.

[reithme2]

@alibi_18 Thanks!

A lot of what you are saying aligns with trainer #2 especially in regards to straightness. IDK if our gaits were that great with other trainers they just felt good as far as he felt like he was reaching under and carrying himself well.

With trainer 2 I often feel like we are just plopping along and im all over the place trying to follow her instructions. As frazzled as I feel in these lessons I think trainer #2 is trying to get us to start over in a sense with a more dressage focus/mindset and it may take a lot of time for my horse and I to adjust and I’m okay with that just want to ensure we’re heading in a direction that makes sense.

Yes horse is sound (according to vet, farrier, trainers and chiro) - he gets hock injections and working with chiro may start getting neck injections based on recent xrays. Will he stay sound for low level dressage? I hope so - I assume he wont be able to get a ton of sit and I dont think he’ll get a ton of collection but vet thinks he can handle low level dressage. I do realize we are likely on the training level forever - but I’m okay with that. I really just want to learn and enjoy this horse - he’s personality is a ten! He was sound as a hunter I’ve switched to dressage for my own reasons.

I agree that horse probably doesnt have the muscles needed right now and you’re probably right we are both a bit lost without constant leg that I’m used to riding with. Without the leg aid he feels like hes just plopping along not really working from behind. WIth the leg on constantly he can get quick but I thought he was starting to come under himself better and staying in front of my leg - but I also realize I dont know so this could be in mind or false.

I think the transition from hunters to dressage is going to be much harder than I may have originally thought. I assumed hunter to low level dressage can’t be that bad… hah a bit naïve perhaps?

All trainers gave homework as I requested. I do want regular instruction but wanted to avoid weekly or more frequent lessons as I personal preference. I over think and want the opportunity to think through a lesson and really work on things on my own before getting more instruction. Perhaps this is flawed though and I may need more help at the beginning…

Halt wasn’t something I really called out with #1 and #3 but were addressed in lesson. I did ask #2 what she thought of bracing in halt and thats when she mentioned not to worry about it and definitely dont back him up.

#3 spent a good portion of our lesson on trot to halt transitions - saying horse and I needed it.

[joiedevie99]

Without seeing what you looked like at the time, I can’t condemn or endorse anything those trainers told you. Sometimes you have to say things that sound wrong to get through to someone and get them to make a change. Sometimes the person who says all the text-book correct things isn’t actually helping because they aren’t getting any of it through to the student, or connecting the theory to what they’re actually seeing. 1 and 2 both said worrying things, but might all make complete sense in context. Even 3, trot to halt without walk steps isn’t asked for until first level and may be something you and your horse aren’t ready for yet - but in the moment to create some obedience may have been the perfect thing.

Did you video your lessons with these people? Go back and watch the lesson while listening to the comments and see if you (in the moment) were able to follow and improve.

[Lunabear1988]

I agree with others. I would ride with trainer #2 (how many times have you worked with her?) And with #3 as much as possible. Or as someone else suggested, see if #3 can suggest another trainer that she mentors in the area.

[reithme2]

I dont have video of any of these lessons. Ive only lessoned with #1 and #2 a handful of times and #3 twice. I have another lesson set up with #2 I do want to try a few more times with them to see if things start to make more sense.

#1 and #3 were easy to follow instructions from but they also did less to try and change the way I ride the horse to start with which may be a big reason they were easier for me to follow.

@joiedevie99 - #3 wasnt asking for a trot to halt with no walk steps at all - I agree I think that is too much for us ATM - sorry I wasnt more clear.

@WildGooseChase - Hmm interesting that you are the only one supporting lessons with #1 - again they do have their own successful business and #2 is the youngest and least experienced. However, #2 wasn’t suggesting that I let the horse brace. The exercise at the time was to squeeze my outside hand at the same time as supporting with inside leg for 3 strides then relaxing and switching to squeeze inside hand with support from outside leg… Does this clarify? #2 has also said to half halt but then wait for a response and half half again as needed.

#2 was the most patient of all 3 in her demands of the horse and the most demanding of me riding differently and lighter than I usually do.

[Gardenhorse]

@WildGooseChase

I would go with trainer 3 when you can, but also take consistent lessons with trainer 1. There is no reason to limit yourself to one teacher at a time.

Trainer 2 seems improperly educated to me. Straightness isn’t achieved by letting the horse brace on aids. Some of the things you said she told you seem counterintuitive, while others make logical sense.

I agree. You don’t really seem to be getting much out of working with Trainer #2. How many lessons have you had with her? It shouldn’t take that many lessons to feel like you’re making progress.

Regarding Trainer #1, I don’t think draw reins are necessarily evil, although they are easily misused, and likely not appropriate for you at this point. You say that trainer #1 is pushy, but also that you get a lot out of your lessons. A question is whether she continues to push on something if you say you’re not comfortable doing it (i.e., that you don’t want to use draw reins). Do you feel comfortable asking questions about why she is having you do something and does she seem open to other ideas or is she pretty firm in the one way to do things?

Also agree with another poster that you should ask Trainer #3 if she has a suggestion of other trainers you can work with when she is gone for the winter.

[atlatl]

I’d go with #3 when I could, fill in with #1 (learning how to use draw reins properly is not a bad thing; just tell her you don’t know how to use them), and avoid #2.

Also agree that asking #3 for recommendations is a smart thing to do.

Good Luck!

[reithme2]

#1 is not pushy - she mentioned using draw reins would be an option. I’m pretty sure if I told her I’d like to avoid it there wouldnt be an issue at all.

I don’t oppose the use of draw reins I just don’t think I’d trust myself to use them at this point. I also am worried about using tools and not getting a real connection. In the hunters I thought I had a horse working from behind but it was really just a false connection - he wasnt in front of my leg and I rode him in a leverage bit (gag or pelham to show). He had a nice topline muscle in his neck but never over his back and I’ve never been able to ride him long and low in a stretchy trot.

My whole goal is to learn how to do get a real connection and though I dont think draw reins or tools are bad I’d like to avoid if possible.

Yes - Ill try to get #3 back out and see if she has recommendations.

[BigMama1]

From your description, I would say trainer 3. Even if you can only do in person lessons once a month, it’s better than throwing money away on poor quality training more frequently. Maybe ask if she will do Z
live video lessons more frequently? They might be more affordable too since they don’t require her to travel to you

[Scribbler]

If you have already been riding this particular horse in a false frame in hunters I agree that draw reins are not a good idea for either of you because they will end up reinforcing the false frame that is the comfort zone for both of you. Also putting that much focus on head carriage on an unfit older TB with maintenance issues is missing the point of what you need to build on.

Other than that it is impossible to evaluate the instructions without video.

All coaches give situational instructions. They will give their best advice to what they see happening in front of them. One of the drawbacks of clinics is that people get some advice and then religiously follow it for years even after the horse no longer needs that exercise. I have no idea why Trainer #2 was brushing off your question about half halts. She may have felt that you and your horse didn’t need them at that moment in the lesson. It is true that half halts become more and more subtle as schooling proceeds, both horses balance and riders skill.

You should look at the students of these coaches. Do you like how their long time students ride? Can they take average riders and make them nice riders within their limits?

Or are all their students permanent beginner intermediates with busy legs and jabby hands and false frames?

[SAB]

Couple of thoughts. You mention 1 & 3 don’t do as much to change your position. in my experience, this is actually the sign of a more experienced trainer - they understand you can only change so much about someone’s default position/aid system at once. Think of it as building blocks. You need to address one/few things at a time until they become habituated.

I am not opposed to 1 - draw reins have their place when used in the right circumstances. I use them for hill work with horses that get, uh, overly excited, because I can use them tactfully rather than feeling like I’m water skiing. I also have very effectively used backing as a training technic for a TB who would rush and jig on the trail. He was so full on about NEEDING TO GET WHERE HE WAS GOING that backing up convinced him that walking flatfooted was a decent compromise. Obviously a different situation, but maybe worth considering - the horse was successful up to third btw.

If your horse went beautifully with 1, that should be a good clue that what they’re asking you to do is effective. Your horse is your best feedback mechanism. You might see if she’s able to give you the theory also. If not, I’d go with #3 when in town and #1 when not.

[Mondo]

Piling onto what seems to be the general consensus here: Trainer #1 is not necessarily wrong. You already mentioned that the draw reins were just a suggestion. So tell her you are not interested and go on with life. Trainer #3 sounds like a good option for occasional tune up lessons when they are in town. Trainer #2 definitely sounds much less experienced. You mention that you want to work on your position mostly, which is great, but that the horse doesn’t go as well in the lessons with #2. What that means is that you are not at a place where you know what you need to work on, and the other 2 trainers see it right away - and it ain’t your position. Try a few more times with #1. I’m willing to bet you see more improvement than with #2. It sounds like you already decided #3 was going to be a part time coach for you anyway due to her travel and cost. Good luck.

[reithme2]

Thanks guys!

I think I wanted #2 to work out because they are super convenient and I like how a few horses/riders go who train them but what I dont know is when she started working with those riders/horses. IDK if she built them from the ground up or if they were already going pretty well when they started working with her. I know of one rider who’s worked with #3 and they are excellent. I’ve been wanting to attend some local shows to find out more but none of the show grounds are allowing observers due to COVID.

I’ve been waiting for some sort of epiphany from #2 where it all starts to click and I feel like we are making progress but maybe that won’t come.