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Who here has removed soy from their horse's diet?

Horse Care
#21

I removed soy in April.

My horses became less ‘water logged’ if that makes sense. Each horse looked like he was retaining water on a ration balancer…it went away when I changed the diet.

That was the biggest difference HOWEVER it could be not so much the removal of soy but the product i started using. I don’t know.

Over the years I have used different RBs all with soy but I wasn’t paying attention enough to these things to notice a difference.

I also have wondered for a long time how many of these issues are from keeping the same ole diet day in and day…I think there may be something to more seasonal rotating of foods.

#22

MO – a girl after my own heart … I also have a ‘data set’ of 3 that I ‘experiment’ on … I watch, I make small changes in the feed routine, I watch for changes in the horses. While not scientifically rigorous enough to support publication of a paper, it satisfies my need to observe and understand how things affect my horses.

star

#23

Never had it in a horse’s diet in the first place!

#24

Traditionally Asians consumed soy as a condiment too…not a staple of their diet. Many Americans using soy products created by the soy industry like soy milk are consuming way more of it now than was ever eaten traditionally by Asians. Soy is being added to our breads, many other foods and our children’s school lunches. Asians also have higher rates of stomach, liver, esophagus and pancreatic cancer also than Americans and some attribute that to the effects of a lifetime of soy consumption. Soy is well documented for having negative effects on the thyroid also and not necessarily being fed at ridiculously high levels.

A fun website for those with inquiring minds…scroll down for a long list of articles and studies. BTW…this website is a not for profit foundation…not a company selling a product to anyone.

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/index.html

[quote=meaty ogre;3498556] I hope that people will learn to use moderation in equine diets. For some reason it seems that in the horseworld, people grab onto something and run with it. When the research about fats in the diet came out, people started pumping their horses full of it. Most people couldn’t tell you what the omega3/6 balance should be or why additional vitamin e would be necessary. Everything now is low starch, gotta worry about NSC and stuff them with fiber. The pendulum keeps on swinging and new fads are popping up all the time.

[/quote]

Good point. I wondered now with the low starch feeds and RB’s out there if there has even been this much feed using this much soy for our horses before?

#25

I think in addition to the RB theory/fads as a selling point, the outrageous prices of grain have made RBs seem like a good deal. More vit+min+protein in less volumn of feed. In the summer while grass is growing good, I like RBs, and I like how my horses look on TC 30% supplement. I left Buckeye G&W in spring. As a very small proportion of their overall diet, I am not finding the soy side effects others mention, but I am keeping a close eye on my easy keeper/insulin resistant appy. I have seen some of the same effects from excessive clover in the pasture (barren mares bagging up, weight gain, laminitis, etc.)

Obviously, you can not use a one-size fits all approach, especially with RBs and some barn managers want to give every horse in the barn a scoop of grain in the morning and a scoop of grain in the evening. I think folks who are boarding and not actually in control of what their horse is eating really need to stay on top of what’s going on if RBs are being used.

The horses in my herd who need more protein I supplement with calf manna. I don’t have the bag in front of me, but I will look later and see if soy is in it. The price is a lot better than RBs and there is a balance of proteins.

#26

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;3498608]
Never had it in a horse’s diet in the first place![/QUOTE]

Thomas, what do you feed your horses? How long have you been feeding it? Do you have any horses with dermatological issues?

#27

Dr. Ralston was pointing out the danger in supplementing a single amino acid, which wuld limit the uptake of other amino acids.

Actually, I have a tack shop that sells feed.I do stay very updated un research on All feeds. Yes, there are issues with soy.
Guess what?

Less than SIX years ago, you would have been hard pressed to find a low NSC feed. Feeds were corn based.There were more issues with colic,ulcers & severe founder then.Does it surprise me that there are other issues.No.We are able to breed more horses today than ever. Linebreeding is an issue with all species that needs a good hard look.

The incidence of OCD/DJD has dropped exponentially . Yes, most big, long-time breeders have been feeding better diets for a longer time.
However, you would not believe the ones whose programs have produced little to no OCD/ DJD since adopting a more balanceddiet fortheir breeding programs.They Did NOT know what balanced was.It is not just low NSC, it is minerals & amino acids in the right combination.
THAT comes from research.

Not everyone who owns a horse has bred their own.Not everyone who owns a horse feeds their own horses. Boarding barns just are not going to feed like you or jb, or steph, or even I do.(With the exception of EqTrainer!;)) unfortunately that is real life.

REsearch comes from money.Money comes from an industry that has a large interest group- ie the meat industry. THAT is what Dr.Ralston was TRYING to get across as to WHY there is NO good research into the effects of soy diet in horses versus chickens and cows.We eat chickens and cows, not horses.

So–yes we sell feed.A lot of it. We sell a lot of alfalfa pellets, cubes,beet bulp & oats,too. We even have 2 brands of alfalfa pellets(different size pellets), beet pulp in pellets, shreds, with & without molasses(the goat people love it with molasses).

We carry several different brands and plain ingredients because there is no one feed company that has everything for every horse, including whole grains.

You would need to call jb & get Dynamite to make everything complete!:winkgrin:

Notice-there was no advice given.:smiley:
There have been some great professionals for that.

So to the OP- you can move your horse off of soy & have GREAT results!!:yes::smiley: I would go to the Foxden Equine website & ask Melyni for her advice. She is AWESOME & a trained professional Equine nutrition PhD.
You can’t go wrong there.:cool: She saved my daughter’s first pony, Duke, when she first came out with Quiessence in her living room!We were at Seabourne farm,with Duke & Cozmo!We loff Melyni!:yes:

As in poker,

#28

No I don’t think so…these are her words:

“Yes, Soy protein can be allergenic-but that is not a reason to pull all horses off it! It IS a well balanced, excellent quality source of protein for most horses, based on the SCIENTIFIC evidence!”

When I asked for scientific evidence showing it was harmless for horses, I was told that studies on horses don’t exist. It was a pretty clear cut answer I think. While it has been fed for 30 years in horse feeds…I suspect until recently it was not fed as a main ingredient since the concept of low NSC is fairly new.

Can you back that comment up with real research and statistics or is that just your opinion?

[quote=ridenslide;3498702] Not everyone who owns a horse has bred their own.Not everyone who owns a horse feeds their own horses. Boarding barns just are not going to feed like you or jb, or steph, or even I do.(With the exception of EqTrainer!;)) unfortunately that is real life.
[/quote]

Actually I run a boarding operation also I let boarders chose what they want. I have one client that likes Strategy, one who likes Country Acres, another who likes oats, one on Triple Crown, some who want beet pulp. We accommodate every one with in reason. :slight_smile:

Just in case you missed it earlier in information I posted…boarders on my farm are consuming the same hay, grass and water as my own horses too. The ONLY difference was mine were get a RB and are of a different breed. We do have several purebred Arabs here and QH’s, a mustang pony cross, and the only IR horses on the farm are those who ate the RB this summer.

[quote=ridenslide;3498702] REsearch comes from money.Money comes from an industry that has a large interest group- ie the meat industry. THAT is what Dr.Ralston was TRYING to get across as to WHY there is NO good research into the effects of soy diet in horses versus chickens and cows.We eat chickens and cows, not horses.
[/quote]

Understood…but does it really make you feel better to know there are ingredients in horse feed that no one has seriously researched. She also said it was “chasing gremlins” to do the testing since it was assumed safe.

Yup…lots of advice and very few dispute that my horses have had some serious problems from a summer being fed a soy based feed. I’ve consulted with three different vets now to include Dr. Harman and not one of the vets thinks I’m overreacting nor off base with my concerns. One vet who was out here the other day from a local practice for a boarder’s horse was astonished to see my 4 month old filly. She said she’s never seen anything like it before.

#29

You cut and pasted the wrong part of Dr Ralston’s post.:no:
She even got a thank you for her reply on the danger of supplementing single amino acid post.:yes::slight_smile:

Her post also says soy is safe for MOST horses.So is corn. MY horse almost died, so should ALL horses have corn removed?We now know it is high in NSC. With fat added, however it has a different insulin reaction.

I don’t think you are over reacting about your horse, either.
I DO, however,believe you are being overly argumentative and guilty of taking things out of context to make them seem inflammatory to suit your arguement.

And yes the OCD/DJD lowering by balanced diets is backed by a LOT of research, not MY opinion.THAT has saved untold numbers of foals and millions of dollars for horse owners.

I know there have been several breeders who have posted on their own experiences with that fact,too,since your poor horses’ saga has begun.

I just don’t know how to cut & paste or reference as well as you do.:wink:
i will try to figure it out thouh.
I know Melyni has the facts though!So does Dr. Kapper, even though you don’t want to listen to him. So does KER
THe Horse, hmm…

The Guelph Equine Nutrition course was loaded with it.You can take that course online.Fish turned me onto that one!:eek:Thanks Fish!:mad::winkgrin:

Nope, I didn’t miss ANY of your posts.;):smiley: Yours were the only ones on the RB & Yours are the only ones of a different breed.
Several people posted that there might be a link to the breed, especially with the linebreeding. It is possible that they are much more like ponies and just got “too much” and really have a hard time with soy.
I believe I have stated that on several occasions.:winkgrin:

As I said befor, I am giving no more feed advice,there are plent of GREAT trained experts out here willing to give of their time. I am just an humble small business owner trying to survive. I am sitting back and learning from them.THEY have a lot to say if you listen to EVERYTHING & don’t extrapolate what you want to hear.

With croplands shrinking, and traditional feed sources now being used for fuel, we are definitely going to see more “byproduct” feed sources.There just won’t be that many sources left for whole grains in 10 years.THAT is unfortunately reality.GLobal warming, flooding, droughts, whatever, crops have suffered the past three years.Feed prices are through the roof. Fertilizer prices are through the roof.Fuel prices,too.
It is costing more to feed horses.Feed companies are trying to find the SAFEST way to feed MOST horses.They don’t test on ALL breeds. THAT is the biggest drawback & most likely where your problem has come from.

SO, is is 100% safe, right, foolproof? NO.
God know, I wish it were.

The problem is not just soy.
The feed companies ARE doing research. Millions of dollars of it.So are the mineral companies, the vet schools,etc.

MEanwhile we will try to help horses an their owners when or if problems arise. If everyone wants to feed AP & BP, more power to them.We have both to sell.
All we ask of our cutomers reading this, is that if you are going to switch, could you give us a call & give us notice before switching!:winkgrin:
Especially if you have been getting large delivery or pick up!:lol:Please? Otherwise, we get a tax write off and the USERL horses have to eat that bad feed.:eek::lol:

As in poker, I am done, through, finished,gone, out!:cool:

Good luck & be careful out there.

#30

How much soy is too much??

A 1200 pound horse in medium work will need to consume in the vicinity of 24 - 30 pounds of food a day. If I am feeding 6 lbs of a 13% protein feed with wheat middlings and soybean hulls as the first and second ingredients, I estimate I am feeding roughly .78 lbs of protein a day. So only 1/3 to 1/4 of the horse’s total protein intake is from a concentrated source. The horse is in good condition, with the rest of the diet compromised of pasture and a little timothy hay.

Wheat middlings are 18% protein and soybean hulls are roughly 9% protein. Dried beet pulp is the third ingredient, which is about 6% protein. I don’t seem to be having any issues with the amount of soy I am feeding, whatever that may be. I’m not good at math.

#31

Apparently no one knows since tests have not been done.

#32

Again with no solid research, who really knows if it is? Everyone assumes it is but it is just an assumption. We don’t know at what levels we might see a thyroid effect or effects of phytoestrogens. We see plenty of that in people who just eat soy in their diets…not “excessive” amounts either. So how much is safe? Could it vary by breed or type? I’ll bet it does. :yes:

[quote=ridenslide;3498842] I don’t think you are over reacting about your horse, either.
I DO, however,believe you are being overly argumentative and guilty of taking things out of context to make them seem inflammatory to suit your arguement.
[/quote]

And you aren’t being argumentative too? :wink:

[quote=ridenslide;3498842] And yes the OCD/DJD lowering by balanced diets is backed by a LOT of research, not MY opinion.THAT has saved untold numbers of foals and millions of dollars for horse owners.
[/quote]

References please…not just your opinion. :slight_smile: Surely if millions have been saved, there must be some references stating that. I’m not saying you aren’t right…I am just done with taking people’s word for it when it comes to feeding horses. :no:

[quote=ridenslide;3498842] I know there have been several breeders who have posted on their own experiences with that fact,too,since your poor horses’ saga has begun.
[/quote]

Yes and plenty of negative experiences as well have been shared…not to mention a lot of emails and PM’s that I won’t share since folks did not want to post publically.

[quote=ridenslide;3498842] I just don’t know how to cut & paste or reference as well as you do.:wink:
i will try to figure it out thouh.
I know Melyni has the facts though!So does Dr. Kapper, even though you don’t want to listen to him. So does KER
THe Horse, hmm…
[/quote]

What facts? Where are the soy safety studies on horses? Oh…that’s right…they don’t exist… :no: I am listening but I’m also asking for proof and so far we don’t have any provided by anyone.

“Too much” of what? Soy? Protein? Amino Acids? Minerals?

Hard to avoid linebreeding in a rare breed with foundation horses numbering about 100. Linebreeding is NOT the same thing as inbreeding. If you want to see inbreeding look at some modern breeds.

[quote=ridenslide;3498842] I am just an humble small business owner trying to survive. I am sitting back and learning from them.THEY have a lot to say if you listen to EVERYTHING & don’t extrapolate what you want to hear.
[/quote]

Humble? :lol: I’m a business owner also who has just had a huge setback and a lot of unhealthy horses which I’m spending a lot of money getting healthy again and no one can explain it other than the feed. Everyone tries to survive so forgive me for my lack of sympathy.

I kind of figured that was your motivation in directing your attack on me who dares to question a popular ingredient in horse feed. LOL.

#33

[QUOTE=Daydream Believer;3498524]

Larkspur…there is a lot more than phytoestrogens that are “wrong” with soy. Do some research on it.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. Actually, I did that research six or seven years ago, and made a lot of changes in my own diet because of it.

I make the point about the phytoestrogens because it seems like some people are obsessing over that one issue. Horses have such a varied diet and consume such a large volume of food, I can see where it would be difficult to conduct meaningful research on specific feedstuffs. Even if you have conclusive results, it might be hard to translate those results to different breeds of horses in different environments eating different diets.

I wouldn’t rule out problems due to feeding horses soy – not at all. Nor do I discount the possibility that the feed contributed to your mare’s laminitis (just now read that thread).

#34

Sharon - that was a joke to our customers. Did you not see- we get a tax write off? THe USERL gets the “bad(meaning evil) feed”. We would like to be able to have on hand enough of the new food stuf to keep them happy.:winkgrin:THAT was the TRUE meaning behind the post.:lol:

The facts that I would cut and paste were on the OCD/DJD studies-not soy studies.Please don’t misquote me. I am not being argumentative. I am stating facts- that ARE backed up by research.

Like I said, you take things out of context.I know it is election season, but…:eek:

I know he difference between line breeding and inbreeding.Yes it IS hard to avoid in a small gene pool. Not impossible.

And yes, I AM humble. I am also extremely shy in person, until i get to know those around me. You do not know me well enough to make that judgement.Those who know me and know my life story, do.
If you know what I do every day, then you can tell me if I am humble or not.

If you had been to the store the past year, you wouldn’t have seen me anyway.If you thought you did, you have me confused with someone else.I have not worked since September 18th.Believe me. I wil remember THAT date forever.

I am Ok with who I am. You have decided that I am now one of the evil ones because I sell horse feed.I don’t make it. I still think you are right about the soy connection with your herd.
Enough of this negative energy bullshit.

I wan’t attacking you.
I just don’t like your sensationalizing methods of portying half truths and taking things out of context.

I do not make the horse feed.

#35

[QUOTE=Flash44;3498857]
How much soy is too much??

I don’t seem to be having any issues with the amount of soy I am feeding, whatever that may be. I’m not good at math.[/QUOTE]

It sounds to me that you are like 90% of horse owners out there who probably don’t need to be overly concerned about soy issues. I’ve got a mini who probably has some thyroid dysfunction, a horse with chronic dermatitis that isn’t clearing despite various treatments, and a high-as-a-kite TB that all may or may not be helped by removing soy. I’m going to find out the only way I know how!

As Dr. Ralston said, soybeans have been used in feed for decades (hulls, meal, whatever). Ration balancers with 30% protein and thus a higher soy content are a little newer. Now, used according to the labelling most horses are still not getting a lot more soy, but it is possible, and they are probably getting more concentrated doses of soy as the filler grains have been removed from a lot of RBs. Is this causing a problem? I don’t know, and I don’t think anybody really does.

#36

I don’t feed my horses soy - never have. Don’t feed my dogs corn or soy, for the same reason I don’t feed my horses soy. It’s my opinion, substantiated by nothing at all :lol:, that critters should eat what they’ve eaten throughout their species’ existences. Horses didn’t live on soybeans, and neither did dogs or their early ancestors.

As evidence for my opinion, I look to humans. Different ethnicities of humans have different sensitivities to foods - look at Native Americans and alcohol, for instance. They didn’t have a history of alcohol, and they are not well adapted to it. Why would a horse or a dog be any different? Stuff a steer full of corn and you’re likely to have to feed him antibiotics as well.

So I stick as much as possible to grasses and alfalfa for my horses. They augment their feed themselves with a variety of things, from weeds and native grasses to olive berries. I have upon occasion given them oats, and I have to give my unsound Thoroughbred a little canola oil to get his joint supplements to stick to his alfalfa pellets.

The horses are fat(ish) and shiny, the dogs skinny and shiny. (They’re sighthounds and are supposed to be skinny! :wink: ) No allergies anywhere…

Liz

#37

I don’t think anyone who sells horse feed is evil. That’s ridiculous but to accuse me of spouting half truths is just as much so since no one has any studies to back up anything they are saying about how safe this ingredient is.

Sensationalizing? Hardly…you should come and see my horses…it’s only a couple hours drive. Come on up and then tell me I’m going overboard with my concerns about an ingredient we now know was never fully tested for safety.

I just got done trimming my IR/wild filly who was the one so badly affected this summer by the soy/feed/whatever. The fact that I could safely trim her is amazing compared to her before we removed the soy from her diet…and I got her wormed also with some patience…a few weeks ago…I could not.

What upset me the most as I trimmed her was her feet. :frowning: Serious white line separation…hoof wall is peeling off practically…she’s about half foundered herself. I raised three full sisters of hers on the same grass and the same paddock she lived all her life…same farmers hay…same water. Pintopiaffe has her full sister from last summer…another is in Ireland and I still have her older sister who is also struggling with IR also as a two year old but who was normal as a foal. I never had a problem with any of them until now. It makes me sick to see the damage done to this baby and to have people tell me I am sensationalizing.

#38

Okay- I’ve ready these threads with curiosity.

I added extruded soy to my horse’s diet before going to an eventing camp for extra protein at the suggestion of my vet (who feeds it sucessfuly.) He got really agitated. No idea if there’s a correlation - but I’m planning on removing it to see if him improves. There’s a lot about hives etc and a few mentions of irritability. Can anyone confirm if they reduced anxitey and irritability by removing soy?

thanks!

#39

Yes. I had a manic, extremely anxious, wild filly settle in days after removing it. The difference in her is remarkable. She is also got very Insulin resistant after a few months on a soy based feed.

We have two other horses on the farm who have been switched off the same product and we are hoping to see them settle also but the switch is not complete yet.

#40

Dog food, cat food, and animal fodder is certified by a group set up by the feds - AAFCO. For pet food, the certification process is far from onerous. For instance, six out of eight dogs must survive for 26 weeks on the food without showing clinical or pathological signs of nutrient deficiency or excess. Of course, 25% of the animals could have died of nutrient excess or deficiency in that 26 weeks, and the food could still be declared “complete and balanced,” as long as the remaining six dogs tested OK and hadn’t lost more than 15% of their original body weight!

The other alternative for certification is to show that the ingredients the manufacturer puts into the food meets a nutrient profile appropriate for the species - on paper.

I don’t know whether horse feed is tested the same way. But suffice it to say that I have NO faith in processed pet food. Grains in dog and cat food certainly took off after grain-processing companies bought into pet food companies. It doesn’t matter to me if a certain grain or legume looks on paper as if it should be OK for the dog or cat or horse.

But I won’t go off on a pet food rant now. :lol:

Liz

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