I watched the “Big Jump” stream from Harrisburg last night and every single one was a warmblood. I can understand their popularity in dressage and the hunters, but why the jumpers? ps I know Warmblood is one word but I don’t know how to edit a title.
I answered your question on the other thread - the problem is that it’s an answer that isn’t very popular.
PNWJumper said it beautifully on a thread on the sport horse breeding forum.
Likely simply because they are bred for the job, and have been for generations.
Still, many have a fair bit of thoroughbred blood.
I also think though (particularly for hunters and dressage) that the sport has evolved in a way that favours the warmblood type.
Because we are bred to jump and to do dressage. Cross-bred in europe to produce the best sports horses. Those who line breed a certain breed will get some good jumpers, but when european registries look at horses, they look at all horses, whether warmblood crosses or TBs or whatever. Warmbloods have TB blood, lots of it, and Arab blood, ditto that, and then any other horse that has excelled both in the ring and in conformation classes. If you breed the best jumper to the best jumper, you get a pretty good jumper.
Yes- look at the top jumpers in the world and you will see quite a lot of TB blood close up in many of them, and farther away in some- but they all have a good bit of blood somewhere. It is really, really useful for jumpers!
My WB doesn’t have any blood close up and while he is an incredible jumper keeping him fit is an everyday thing. My TB can hang out and not do much for days at a time and then go galloping XC without even blowing hard.
I’ going to try to say this in a way that doesn’t sound too touchy-feely. I think that a big reason that TB’s are not making it in Big Time JUmper-land is between their ears. In my experience, when a TB “gets it” they have it and choose to be in charge. Jumper courses today are so technical that even the most athletic horses (of any breed or registry) cannot successfully or consistently figure it out on their own on the spot. They can’t walk the course and make a plan, but TB’s still want to do it themselves. WB’s, as a group, seem more willing to accept direction. TB’s have the scope and athleticism, but not the willingness to concede control of exactly how many strides to put in that bending 82’ line to the triple…
Supershorty628 Thanks for your response on the other thread; I just wanted some more comments and hopefully more in depth which I now have, It makes sense, thank you all.
[QUOTE=Madeline;7811807]
TB’s have the scope and athleticism, but not the willingness to concede control of exactly how many strides to put in that bending 82’ line to the triple…[/QUOTE]
They don’t have to - we’re talking jumpers in this thread. No one cares how many strides you put anywhere on course. You just have to leave all the rails up and be fastest to win.
The bottom line is that back when thoroughbreds ruled the earth, there was simply no other option. Once another (better) option started to become available, that was where people started spending their money. And here we are in the 21st century, and the thoroughbred is just not sought after in jumping disciplines. It’s not that hard to understand. It’s nothing personal. It just is.
Um, at anything over about 1.3m and especially 1.5 or 1.6m how many strides may not be the best way to express it but they dam sure better be in exactly the right spot when they leave the ground over the in fence of the triple. If not it could be much worse then rails, they can’t just power over out of a bad spot or too much/too little pace like they can lower.
Maybe managing the stride at the direction of the rider would be a better way to put it. No matter how smart, the horse does not know on their own what kind of striding is going to be needed between the B and C elements when they jump in over A and they don’t know about the roll back after C. They HAVE to listen to the rider to get through these big courses often in tight arenas and that great TB gallop is not the right answer on today’s courses, it takes power off the ground at the base.
My one word answer would be power. Which two others have hit upon here.
PNW Jumper “I believe that the ability to explode from underneath a jump while simultaneously carrying enough energy to get across the width is the primary reason why WBs have an advantage at the 1.60m level”
[QUOTE=findeight;7811869]
… that great TB gallop is not the right answer on today’s courses, it takes power off the ground at the base.[/QUOTE]
Nothing can beat the beauty and the fluidity of a good TB gallop, which they are muscled for, but the WB has the muscling for the quick eruptive burst of power.
To edit titles “Go Advanced”
So…the older courses were more friendly to TBs because… why? What I am reading is that the better results are the result of a horse who is more tractable? Is the feeling that the TB’s bigger gallop is harder to shorten? These are honest questions on my part. This never occurred to me until yesterday when I was watching Harrisburg. In general, are the warmbloods considered more athletic than thoroughbreds?..and of course I am speaking in generalities. Would Idle Dice or Jet Run not be as competitive if they were alive and competing today? I guess it makes sense that a shorter stride wold provide the ability to go deeper into the fence but then the horse has to put in more effort doesn’t he. Please no snide comments, I want to understand this.
[QUOTE=findeight;7811869]
…
Maybe managing the stride at the direction of the rider would be a better way to put it. No matter how smart, the horse does not know on their own what kind of striding is going to be needed between the B and C elements when they jump in over A and they don’t know about the roll back after C. They HAVE to listen to the rider to get through these big courses often in tight arenas and that great TB gallop is not the right answer on today’s courses, it takes power off the ground at the base.[/QUOTE]
Thank you, findeight. That’s exactly what I was trying to say. I wasn’t considering how many strides to put in to make it look pretty, rather how many strides to put in so that you got out successfully!
[QUOTE=Madeline;7811807]
I’ going to try to say this in a way that doesn’t sound too touchy-feely. I think that a big reason that TB’s are not making it in Big Time JUmper-land is between their ears. In my experience, when a TB “gets it” they have it and choose to be in charge. Jumper courses today are so technical that even the most athletic horses (of any breed or registry) cannot successfully or consistently figure it out on their own on the spot. They can’t walk the course and make a plan, but TB’s still want to do it themselves. WB’s, as a group, seem more willing to accept direction. TB’s have the scope and athleticism, but not the willingness to concede control of exactly how many strides to put in that bending 82’ line to the triple…[/QUOTE]
that’s funny… i would actually say the exact opposite. thoroughbreds have huge hearts and are really smart. warmbloods tend to be chickens and well… dumb-bloods lol. i think warmbloods are literally built to jump higher and thoroughbreds are built to run faster and longer.
generally.
The only TB that comes to mind that jumped World Cup Qualifiers and 1.60 in the US and in Europe in the past couple years is Tomas Edison. He was ridden by Charlie and Maggie Jayne. He jumped the Harrisburg WC Qualifier at least once maybe more.
[QUOTE=trafalgar;7811905]
So…the older courses were more friendly to TBs because… why? What I am reading is that the better results are the result of a horse who is more tractable? Is the feeling that the TB’s bigger gallop is harder to shorten? These are honest questions on my part. This never occurred to me until yesterday when I was watching Harrisburg. In general, are the warmbloods considered more athletic than thoroughbreds?..and of course I am speaking in generalities. Would Idle Dice or Jet Run not be as competitive if they were alive and competing today? I guess it makes sense that a shorter stride wold provide the ability to go deeper into the fence but then the horse has to put in more effort doesn’t he. Please no snide comments, I want to understand this.[/QUOTE]
My limited understanding (which may be dead wrong). It that the older courses were big jumps, but not so technical (tight turns, one-strides, etc).
[QUOTE=trafalgar;7811905]
So…the older courses were more friendly to TBs because… why? What I am reading is that the better results are the result of a horse who is more tractable? Is the feeling that the TB’s bigger gallop is harder to shorten? These are honest questions on my part. This never occurred to me until yesterday when I was watching Harrisburg. In general, are the warmbloods considered more athletic than thoroughbreds?..and of course I am speaking in generalities. Would Idle Dice or Jet Run not be as competitive if they were alive and competing today? I guess it makes sense that a shorter stride wold provide the ability to go deeper into the fence but then the horse has to put in more effort doesn’t he. Please no snide comments, I want to understand this.[/QUOTE]
It’s not that TBs can’t shorten, but that the older type courses were designed to be jumped with a lot more forward pace. With a forward pace, you can generate a lot more jump by simply redirecting the momentum you already have.
The courses today reward more explosive on-the-spot power - ie, the horse has to completely create the jump out of his muscles and strength at the base of the jump without getting so much boost from the gallop he had coming in.
The warmblood registries and breeding programs are very Borg-like in their general strategy. If it is a great jumper, this horse can be part of the program, regardless of pedigree or birthplace. TBs are artificially restricted by pedigree. So the warmblood registries can (and do) use the TBs that are great jumpers along with the animals that were bred in say Hannover for the last 200 years. It is the advantage of breeding for phenotype instead of pedigree, and for specialized performance horses, that strategy is probably always going to win over the “pure breeding” strategy that the more traditional breeds have used.
[QUOTE=harrisburgrules;7811938]
that’s funny… i would actually say the exact opposite. thoroughbreds have huge hearts and are really smart. warmbloods tend to be chickens and well… dumb-bloods lol. i think warmbloods are literally built to jump higher and thoroughbreds are built to run faster and longer.
generally.[/QUOTE]
If warmbloods are so dumb, how come everyone wants one for jumping and dressage? Look, TBs are great. But they are bred to run and always have been bred to run. Warmbloods have been specifically crossbred to jump and do dressage. And that huge hind end on a warmblood allows him to take off with a lot of power over jumps. And as one western rider said about one of us, WBs can “book it” when they want to run. Just nowhere near as fast as a TB. And of course, a TB mare is smarter than most horse owners, so we’ll concede the point that a TB mare is smarter than the majority of WBs… WBs are not afraid to try to jump anything. And we usually do so. Hot wire? No problem. The panels on a round pen? No problem. Just don’t let a plastic bag blow through the pasture, or we’ll jump the 3 board fence to get back to the safety of the barn.
[QUOTE=WildandWickedWarmbloods;7812727]
If warmbloods are so dumb, how come everyone wants one for jumping and dressage? Look, TBs are great. But they are bred to run and always have been bred to run. Warmbloods have been specifically crossbred to jump and do dressage. And that huge hind end on a warmblood allows him to take off with a lot of power over jumps. And as one western rider said about one of us, WBs can “book it” when they want to run. Just nowhere near as fast as a TB. And of course, a TB mare is smarter than most horse owners, so we’ll concede the point that a TB mare is smarter than the majority of WBs… WBs are not afraid to try to jump anything. And we usually do so. Hot wire? No problem. The panels on a round pen? No problem. Just don’t let a plastic bag blow through the pasture, or we’ll jump the 3 board fence to get back to the safety of the barn.[/QUOTE]
i’ve ridden and shown warmbloods for years. i love them. hands down my favorite. but many of them don’t mature and stop doing “weird” things until they are like 10 years old. the term dumb-bloods is used very widely in the horse world. i don’t think warmbloods are literally idiots… i love them. for sure. but sometimes they are a bit slower to learn and are afraid of really weird things.
I don’t think that they are slower to learn, as much as they are slower to physically mature. They are bigger horses, in general, although there have been many smaller, catty WB’s, just like there are bigger heavier TB’s. It has been my experience that they grasp concepts fairly quickly, but tire quickly too. And some of the spookiest horses I have ridden have been TB’s, so I think that’s a huge misconception. If an immature horse is pressed to hard to soon, it will start to act out.
RE: Jet Run & Idle Dice. Dont forget about Touch of Class, Gem Twist and his daddy Good Twist, For the Moment to name a few…I think that the riders/trainers have as much to do with the success of those horses as much as the breeding. THey possibly could be as competitive today, given the right set of circumstance.
My interpretation of the courses of today vs yesteryear is that modern courses are tight and technical - a horse has to be able to jump off a turn, out of a collected stride, slice a wide oxer etc. The courses then had more open lines where you could ride a nice gallop, which works for the TBs as they usually jump best when opened up so they could really power over the jumper, but (at least mine) will drop rails when confronted by big jumps on really technical tracks, because she can’t build the pace she needs to jump big. Warmbloods have an advantage here as generally, they are powerful enough to jump anything from anywhere, and while they might not be able to gallop as fast as the Thoroughbred, that’s not really necessary anymore.
