So why have the courses become more technical and tight? Is space an issue? Do the WB organizations have the power to keep things as they are? How would a WB do with those older courses?
I think the issue to course changes mirrors what we have seen in eventing. Once the horses “got” the challenge they tried to make it more difficult. There was a point where the fences couldn’t be made bigger, so they started adding technicality to tip the scales to have the course be ‘tougher’ but in new and different ways.
Now in both sports, and hunters, we see more technical aspects and challenges not only to the rider, but to the horse’s true adjustability and versatility.
I would add too that the TB vs Non-TB in sport is an age old issue when we step back in time a ways. I don’t personally believe that there’s anything wrong with having folks who like one or the other. So long as those who belong on a Tb are on a Tb and those on a WB belong on a WB. I watched tonight and oddly I thought that some of those WB’s looked a lot “warmer” to ride than my Tb’s, but then I am only sitting in an arena seat watching 1.5m. I exist at 1.2m or so and my and my cheapy Tb’s are all very comfy. The world is a wonderful place at this level of asking.
But I don’t have an issue with a wb, just can’t afford one and don’t really think they’d be able to show on the Tb show circuit. The big ass brands may give me away!
Emily
[QUOTE=trafalgar;7812963]
So why have the courses become more technical and tight? Is space an issue? Do the WB organizations have the power to keep things as they are? How would a WB do with those older douses?[/QUOTE]
No, no, no, it’s Obama’s fault! Although WBs do have some of that Arab blood, you know? Don’t really know why the courses have changed or if they have really changed significantly. Maybe Americans are imitating the european courses they’ve seen when they competed in europe. (And we warmbloods fully concede that there’s not a big following for WB racing. Who wants to see a clunky WB run when one can watch the beautiful and sleek TBs racing at the tracks? Horses for courses is the rule.)
Yup - it is always Obama’s fault - blame him.
[QUOTE=trafalgar;7812963]
So why have the courses become more technical and tight? Is space an issue? Do the WB organizations have the power to keep things as they are? How would a WB do with those older courses?[/QUOTE]
Here’s a list of the top World Cup horses since 1979. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Show_Jumping_World_Cup
Most of them are WBs. American TBs, as opposed to alot of European-type TBs, are bred to run fast on the flat. A horizontal build, deep heart girth, lean build facilitates this. Alot of European TBs were bred for steeplechase and fox-hunting (jumping and jumping) and have been used extensively to lighten up the WB jumper. But warmbloods have been bred for jumping for a very long time on continental Europe. Jumpers require power in the hind-end and an ability to push up and over a big spread. The two jobs (racing and jumping) require a very different build. some TBs excel. But more WBs are specifically bred to excel in this sport.
what J-Lu said! And I will add the loss of open spaces to ride in! Remember when we were kids, we used to ride through the woods and fields falling off until we learned how to stay on! Now its almost always in a ring somewhere.
I think what we really need in jumpers is the equine equivalent of a bunny rabbit!!! Talk about hind end strength!!!
There are some interesting genetic studies on the heritability of jumping traits, and the difference in fear responses between dressage and jumping horses ( showing that jumping horses had less strong fear response that was possibly genetic).
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016815911000136X
Fear reaction article
http://www.biw.kuleuven.be/GENLOG/livgen/research/interstallion/publications/thoren2006.pdf
Genetic parameters of show jumping and dressage horses
interestingly, this article suggests a correlation between canter gait evaluation and jumping ability.
As to the prevalence of warmbloods in the show jumping ring, it might also be worth thinking about the wide spread nature of show jumping in Europe compared to the United States.
I have no hard and fast data on this, but the anecdotes you hear in comparison suggest show jumping is a lot more accessible for competitors than it is in the US, and thus there might be a wider market in the US for show jumpers than in the US-- hence to some extent surely breeding reflects selection for market demand. Someone may have researched this-- will see if there is anything I can find.
Edited to add
http://www.citizenhorse.com/2008/06/01/sport-horse-breeding-registries-papers-inspections-does-it-matter/
This article takes the American warmblood registries to task for their practices ( or lack of them) compared to Europe. Differences in registries, tracking and requirements may account for the production of warmblood lines known to produce X kind of performance horse ( be it jumping, dressage or whatever) with that knowledge not kept and tracked in the same way in the US ( according to the article).
I wonder how many of the show jumping warmbloods are European in origin and not produced from American warmblood stock. The difference as to warmblood and TB in show jumpers may have something to do with the breeding practices in Europe and the US, as opposed to general ability differences between TBs and warmbloods.
Could anyone provide some kind of breakdown of the origins of the warmblood show jumper individual horses? That might be telling.
Edited to Add
another article
This discusses the genetic composition of the Hanovarian warmblood, showing a relatively high percentage of genetic contribution by English thoroughbreds ( 35 per cent or so).
I think that this belies the ideas of a great deal of genetic difference between warmbloods and TBs. TBs have been mixed deliberately into the warmblood Hanovarian warmblood stock-- whether for show jumping or dressage performance or both would be interesting to know.
A horse showing as a particular warmblood breed masks the fact that the individual may carry a very high percentage of TB genes. Presumably those genes are added and continue to be used because of relation to performance capability.
Which again causes me to wonder if the difference in breeding practices in the US and Europe account for what “kind” of horse is being seen in the show ring.
[QUOTE=trafalgar;7812963]
So why have the courses become more technical and tight? Is space an issue? Do the WB organizations have the power to keep things as they are? How would a WB do with those older courses?[/QUOTE]
I’ve read articles that talk about how the courses changed to reflect the abilities of the WB’s being bred in Europe. A TB excels at galloping, but I don’t think courses of today reflect that as much as they used to back in the day either for Eventing or SJ.
Interesting to note how our overall performance declined into the 90s…The US teams did better when they were riding mostly thoroughbreds…that is pretty interesting.
Interesting findings from yet another genetic study on warmbloods --in this case Holsteiners
http://archtierz.fbn-dummerstorf.de/pdf/2010/at10p377.pdf
"Our
data supported that higher proportions of genes of Thoroughbred and Trakehner stallions
slightly increased most of the conformation scores, while the proportion of Holsteiner genes
only marginally affected them. Our results are in line with the current recommendation of
the HSS to increase the usage of Thoroughbred stallions for breeding. "
This suggests a deliberate increase in the use of TBs in breeding is seen as improving the Holsteiner ( though whether for dressage, eventing or show jumping, in particular, or across the board, is not specified).
In at least one of the European warmblood breeds, then, there is a deliberate promotion of the use of TBs.
Again, I am not sure that the genetic studies support a clear delineation of what a warmblood can do vs. what a TB can do in the show jumping ring, given the high proportion of TB blood in some breeds and in the apparent desirability of the TB admixture.
I again wonder if the differences can be accounted for by breeding practices and registries in the US and Europe, rather than distinct differences in ability by TBs and warmbloods. It sounds as if a horse appearing as a particular kind of warmblood is likely to have a high proportion of TB genes.
Edited to add
And it is scientifically proven there is no difference between the whinny of a TB and a Czech warmblood!
http://www.degruyter.com/view/j/ats.2014.47.issue-1/ats-2014-0002/ats-2014-0002.xml
:lol::lol:
Edited to add
https://www.deutsche-digitale-bibliothek.de/binary/PIVESJAJBTCA63GI6P5TYEHKFKVVPPKF/full/1.pdf
a thesis looking at depth into genetics of performances in Hanovarians in both show jumping and dressage. I have not had time to read in depth, but certainly will do so. I expect a study of this depth will yield up some very interesting findings relevant to the discussion on the capabilities/abilities of TBs and warmbloods in show jumping.
Maybe we can become more like car racing. There is drag racing, formula one racing, stock car racing etc. They favor different types of cars. Now we don’t want to call them “TB” and “warmblood” courses. Need something that would be more creative and original Perhaps “Bunnies” for the warm bloods, and “Squirrels” for the TBs?
One more article link from me…
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003211
Fascinating genetic discussion across a variety of traits and breeds ( not show jumping specific but still may be of interest to the discussion here).
I wonder if anyone has done a study of the genetics across a range of successful show jumpers-- it would be interesting to see if they share particular markers across breeds. Given that there seems to be a positive correlation between canter evaluation and show jumping ability and then again certain genetic inheritance of gaits, perhaps the genetic marker for a certain kind of gait is important? Just guessing here, genetics is hardly my area of expertise. Nevertheless, interesting studies have been done in great depth.
If a show jumping genetic marker could be isolated, I wonder if it could be traced as coming from TBs, or inherent in warmbloods, and whether it could be determined where it occurs with the greatest frequency.
and one more
showing the differences in dressage and show jumping breeding performance in KWPN
http://www.dutchhorsesunlimited.com/cgi-bin/_GENETICCORRELATION.PHP
I am aware I have linked to several articles, but this question is an intriguing one—whether warmbloods are better in the show jumping ring than TBs? This COtH article has some insight into the market forces that drive the horse supply-- suggestions by none other than George Morris that the US market is one of “consumers and not producers” of horses. http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/future-us-show-jumping-part-3-we-need-stop-outsourcing-our-horse-supply
The structure of breeding operations in the US v what is in Europe has a whole lot to do with what horses are produced where.
Another factor is that apparently of the structure of US horseshows vs what is available in Europe. Again, another link to an article in the series on the Future of Showjumping in COTH.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/future-show-jumping-part-4-building-better-horse-show
I can only speak for europe but the main reasons will be the Same
The course design changed extremly. It is more about rideabilty than plain big jumping.
High blooded horses are always wanted. If you look back at the top german jumper horses you will see how much they changed. Meteor was a heavy horse that used to pull the milk cart. The most German breeds are products of refining work horses. That was made though crossing in TB, arabians or trakehner. Nearly every german stud book has a few TB that helped to evolve the breed a lot. In Holstein they öfter used french horses, which where often TB crosses. France is one of europe racing centers. There they always used lots of TB. Germany was never extremly high on racing, we needed horses that could work on the fields and be a riding horse on the weekends. So TB weren’t horses of the riding mass.
For modern jumping you need a horse that can jump from lots of spots and still jump high. Since europe is where showjumping is most popular the courses evolved in the was we needed it to seperate our classes. High jumping soon wasn’t that Kind of a problem and thank god everybody excepted that seperating a class only through big jumps and the time was not working together with horsemanship. The courses got more technical.
The Otter problem breeders in europe face is that everybody wants a high blooded horse but only eventers are interesed in halfblood horses. To geht some blood in your mare line you Must be able to risk a foal that is not interesting on the market as the pure breed ones. If you breed a Half blood you have to Prag that your foal turns out like you hoped. The problem here is that most TB stallions here are not tested in anyother was than racing. So no breeders can select a stallion through progency or sport results like the other stallions offer. And sadly quiet a few tb stallions used in wb didn’t add any jumping. So a breeders faces the dilemma of havingnto reley on his mare line to expect what Kind of foal he will produce.
And who is in that situation to risk a top mare having a normal foal that will Mostes not be interesting in any market untilgbar the day the breeder spend Lords of money on the correct training
If one can adjust the TB breeding for jumping you can get your tb back in the big rings but you will not adjust the courses, the riders and breeders and the Rest of the World.
You could also ask why aren’t there more frisians in dressage or more wb in the western world. At the top you Need the Wohle package. That is the comformation, the ability and the genetics that come with the breeding programm. I could see the TB returning to the hunter world but that is another Story.
Anecdotally, most of our International show jumpers are imports and many successful jumpers at all levels are either imports or first or second generation descendants of at least one import.
Its off the original topic but we have discussed on here the fact horses are considered livestock by most European breeders, more companion animals over here. And to be quite blunt Europeans are far more likely to castrate and cull based on honest evaluation of actual ability. Over here, not so much.
Over on the TB side, not the same horse as 30 or 40 years ago. Big money is in the young horses and shorter races on dirt or synthetic. Europe still produces more chasers and distance specialists. You can’t just say TB without qualifying what type TB.
TBs have changed a lot since the 70s too. The ones bred for racing increasingly are being bred to be lighter and faster over shorter courses. It has translated into shorter careers and more injuries on the race track, so it isn’t unreasonable to extrapolate that this breeding also may make them more susceptible to injuries in other high-impact jobs - like jumping really big sticks. That’s not to say that all TBs are built this way - some breeders are still breeding for the bigger-boned TBs - but that is more the exception than the rule.
Just a few words for clarification. I think that it is very important in a discussion of breeding to distinguish between breeds and registries. TB’s, Arabs, Morgans, QH’s etc are breeds. Warmbloods (or warmbloods) are registries. (Except maybe Trakheners). You breed a TB to a TB and you get a TB. You breed a Hanoverian to a Selle Francais and you may get an Oldenberg. You really should pay attention. That’s why I get irritated when I see “warmblood of unknown breeding” listed for so many show hunters. How are you going to make good decisions if the information you really need is deliberately withheld by “losing” passports?
[QUOTE=Madeline;7816871]
You really should pay attention. That’s why I get irritated when I see “warmblood of unknown breeding” listed for so many show hunters. How are you going to make good decisions if the information you really need is deliberately withheld by “losing” passports?[/QUOTE]
If your horse comes from EU territorial it needs to have a passport! You are not even allowed to ship your horse without a passport by German law. if your horse has no brand it needs to get a mircoship.
[QUOTE=poltroon;7812022]
TBs are artificially restricted by pedigree.[/QUOTE]
And currently being selected to start winning money on the track in shorter races as 2 & 3 year olds, make back their yearling price and subsequent expenses with some profit ASAP and if they burn out by age 5 then get basically disposed of. They’re not bred for conformation, long-term soundess or temperment, just for the ability to get running as soon as possible and start bringing in money on the track.
Most of the OTTBs when I was a kid 30 years ago or so were rangier and more athletic than most of OTTBs I see these days. There were some gorgeous Tbs at the barn where I rode as a teen that looked like many of the lighter Wbs I see today.
When I was shopping a couple of years ago I tried a couple of sport-bred Tbs that were like the ones I recalled from my youth. These are probably the types that are being crossed into Wb lines in Europe, not the spindly legged, tiny hooved 15hh little guys that ran their guts out for a couple of years and then got sent to auction at the end of the season.
This is just my observation over the years, other people may see things differently in their area. And I’m not saying ALL OTTBs are like this, or all race trainers and owners are burning through horses, just seems to be that the bulk of the Tb bell-curve has moved away from horses suited for other sports.
