I have noticed that Quarter Horses are started (riding) at age 2-3 years - correct me if I am wrong as I new to looking at the breed.
I am more familiar with Warmbloods that are said to mature later, so are started later.
- Money.
- An owners who decides a horse is “old” at 8 and done with riding.
- Breeding for tiny legs that even when not rode the horse is lame and done by 8.
- The overall USA attitude that you have to have everything right now.
So, this will go contrary to some, but just consider this for a bit before jumping on the bandwagon that early start is just without merit.
By the way, TBs are also started early, not just quarter horses.
There was a study by TX A+M some years ago that was showing colts started as two year olds were better in all measures, physically and mentally, than those started at three.
The differences later were less salient as they matured.
Makes sense, since we know that if you start to train for a task when young, you will become more proficient then someone that starts later.
Physically, you are growing your body already tuned to what you will do later, which can give you an advantage when performing.
If you start in gymnastics at 6 and someone starts at 15, who do you think will be performing better down the years?
That applies to horses also.
I grew up in the european tradition, we may have started driving some colts at three, but didn’t start riding most until four years old.
Then, the work we were asking those 4 year olds to do right away would have been too much if they had been a two year old.
You have to train for the horse you have, of course.
The early you start a colt, the more years they will be doing something, the more chances of injuries, of course, but those may happen at any time also.
After having started colts at twos and fours/fives, even older feral horses that were 7 to who knows how old, really, I can say that to lose those early years, when you start them as two’s, properly, with a sensible program geared to their immaturity, with light work and light riders, is worth it.
It is easier on the horse to start them on their life of being handled and ridden at two, their work ethic is installed much easier when so young and that is invaluable for them for the rest of their lives.
I have followed plenty of those horses from being started as early twos to the end of their lives in their late 20’s and they were not at all harmed by their early start.
Some of those were raced lightly at two and heavier at three, then became ranch horses, worked hard for a decade and slowed down in their mid teens and still were being ridden lightly in their early 20’s.
Why are most warmbloods started later than other horses?
Tradition, that is why we did it.
We had a system that grew the colts thru different levels of pasture care until about four and then they came to be started under saddle.
No one questioned it, is just the way it was done, can’t say if you start any of them properly earlier, what would happen.
Unfortunately, many performance prospects, like reiners, are started even earlier than that…as long yearlings in preparation for the 2-yr old futurities. I don’t agree with that…at all.
I’ve always lightly started my QHs in the fall of their 2-yr old year. Just putting basic stop, go, turn, and back up on them. I give them the winter off, then back to work in the spring. Have never had soundness issues doing it this way.
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2endur just about summed it up.
I’m sure somewhere in the Horse Universe someone is sitting on a 2yo WB & then wondering 3-4yrs later why the danged horse is lame.
Wanna really scratch your head?
Consider racing Thoroughbreds who are started as “2yos” - quotes since they are generally born in March-May, then officially become 1yo the following January.
So your field of running 2yos is in reality a bunch of long yearlings.
[QUOTE=2DogsFarm;7946009]
2endur just about summed it up.
I’m sure somewhere in the Horse Universe someone is sitting on a 2yo WB & then wondering 3-4yrs later why the danged horse is lame.
Wanna really scratch your head?
Consider racing Thoroughbreds who are started as “2yos” - quotes since they are generally born in March-May, then officially become 1yo the following January.
So your field of running 2yos is in reality a bunch of long yearlings.[/QUOTE]
Yes and those TBs went on to make good school and show horses, fox hunters, trail horses, ranch horses and lived long lives with normal wear and tear, just like any other horse does, no matter when it was started, as long as it was managed properly at all stages of it’s life.
[QUOTE=2enduraceriders;7945986]
- Money.
- An owners who decides a horse is “old” at 8 and done with riding.
- Breeding for tiny legs that even when not rode the horse is lame and done by 8.
- The overall USA attitude that you have to have everything right now.[/QUOTE]
I started my first two year old quarter horse in 1966. She started foxhunting at age 26 after years of showing and trail riding. Put down at 31. My other horses started at two were ridden, and sound, well into their 20s, save one that was struck by lightning at age 14.
So no, I don’t think your generalization is accurate, at all. Poor horsemen can cripple a horse by 8 that was started at 3 or 4 just as easily as 2.
[QUOTE=KSAQHA;7945995]
Unfortunately, many performance prospects, like reiners, are started even earlier than that…as long yearlings in preparation for the 2-yr old futurities. I don’t agree with that…at all.
I’ve always lightly started my QHs in the fall of their 2-yr old year. Just putting basic stop, go, turn, and back up on them. I give them the winter off, then back to work in the spring. Have never had soundness issues doing it this way.[/QUOTE]
While I am not saying that some reiners are started as long yearlings, there are NO events for reiners as a 2 y/o. Reining Futurities start the late summer/fall of the 3 y/o year. Pleasure horses and HUS have 2 y/o futurities.
I personally like to start them as long yearlings, then kick them back out until the late spring of their 2 y/o year. My filly just turned 2 and will be started in a few weeks.
You remind me of a horse I acquired for WP at age 3, who had had success in the 2 yo futurities. After showing him WP a while, I started foxhunting him at age 6, and retired him from foxhunting at age 26.
[QUOTE=2enduraceriders;7945986]
- Money.
- An owners who decides a horse is “old” at 8 and done with riding.
- Breeding for tiny legs that even when not rode the horse is lame and done by 8.
- The overall USA attitude that you have to have everything right now.[/QUOTE]
My horse, who was started by his previous owner at two, is now 11 and still going strong. He was in very heavy training until I got him at 9. He is not lame in any manner, might get injected for the first time this year (might). Showed in reining and cow work until last year when I switched to RHP due to funds. He does not have tiny legs or feet. He is also not an anomaly! I know many horses that are in the same situation as mine.
Please do not generalize.
[QUOTE=KSAQHA;7945995]
Unfortunately, many performance prospects, like reiners, are started even earlier than that…as long yearlings in preparation for the 2-yr old futurities. I don’t agree with that…at all. /QUOTE]
Holy Jesus.
I think, too, that the tractable mind bred into quarter horses allows folks to press them hard as youngsters. On the track (and with hotter horses), the pros involved and the relatively little “brokeness” a racehorse needs also probably contributes to the early starts given to those horses.
And then there’s the cost of feeding a horse longer while he grows up.
But I do think that the WB being less of a push-over and the kind of riding people will want from him, even as a young horse, protects him from trainers trying to make 2-year-old-futurities a viable “thing” for their world.
I agree that generalization here does not apply
A two year old , started correctly, not pushing that horse towards some major futurity, actually benefits from that earlier start.
Bone density will be increased (this fact taken from a vet that specializes in lameness evaluations)
Good conformation, allowing that young horse to move and play , esp as babies and yearlings ,feeding a diet that is well balanced , with correct mineral rations
allow stock horses to be started as two year olds and remain sound
I started my Peppy San bred mare as a two year old. She had won a halter futurity as a weanling. As a two year old, she won a western pleasure stake class
As a three year old, she was winning reining, western riding and trail.
From then on, she won many hi-point buckles, including also cattle and games, besides hi point senior performance horse,
Raised many nice foals , rode mountain miles with her, and she is stll sound at age 29
I routinely started the horses we raised in the spring or fall of their two year old year. They went on to new homes, staying sound and giving those customers years of pleasure. I know, as many have kept in touch with me. Still get a yearly Christmas greeting and up date from the Czech Republic, by the person who bought two young horses from us over 10 years ago. They are going strong
Yes, there are western performance horses geared towards a major competition, that are pushed, and the fault is the same as in the racing industry-with the big purses put on the young horses, but you can’t take that special population and apply it in general to starting young horses correctly, and without pushing them
I was at a western barn recently, and the resident trainer was starting a long yearling…western in a curb. horse was already doing spins, and was loping with its chin literally to its chest.
Not sure what they were starting it that early for (competition wise), but perhaps they find less resistance?
You can get the same bone density benefits by ponying and having the horse turned out in a hilly field.
I think it is just more accepted in the stock horse world, and so it is done. By starting and competing on 2 year olds, you make baby horses marketable much soon, reducing the risk and investment to the breeders.
[QUOTE=spotnnotfarm;7946183]
Please do not generalize.[/QUOTE]
LOL. the Op can generalize with the question but I can’t generalize an answer???
Of course there are horses that do not follow the “norm”. Even when you have a 80% navicular rate that still leaves 20 out of every 100 horses sound.
I stopped breeding AQHA/Paints/Appy because it broke my heart to see lovely horses with loving owners who did nothing wrong end up with horses who at less then 10 years of age had their riding careers over with. How can you tell a child that their otherwise perfect horse will be sore for the rest of it’s life? That even with nerving all you can do is buy some time. That no matter what the horse’s feet will give out long before the rest of him?
I am old. I have outlived a few too many generations of client’s horses. I have seen the results of “I wont hurt him” or “I will just start him, it wont hurt him.” Go to the Kalona, Iowa auction, there are 100’s of these young started horses run through the sale loose and lame.
Nothing we own is backed before it is 5 now. I like my horses living sound into their 30’s. My daughter has a mare she just purchased last summer and started at 7. She plans on keeping this mare for a lifetime and winning on her.
[QUOTE=2enduraceriders;7947600]
LOL. the Op can generalize with the question but I can’t generalize an answer???
Of course there are horses that do not follow the “norm”. Even when you have a 80% navicular rate that still leaves 20 out of every 100 horses sound.
I stopped breeding AQHA/Paints/Appy because it broke my heart to see lovely horses with loving owners who did nothing wrong end up with horses who at less then 10 years of age had their riding careers over with. How can you tell a child that their otherwise perfect horse will be sore for the rest of it’s life? That even with nerving all you can do is buy some time. That no matter what the horse’s feet will give out long before the rest of him?
I am old. I have outlived a few too many generations of client’s horses. I have seen the results of “I wont hurt him” or “I will just start him, it wont hurt him.” Go to the Kalona, Iowa auction, there are 100’s of these young started horses run through the sale loose and lame.
Nothing we own is backed before it is 5 now. I like my horses living sound into their 30’s. My daughter has a mare she just purchased last summer and started at 7. She plans on keeping this mare for a lifetime and winning on her.[/QUOTE]
If we had been breeding horses that were crippled young we too would have wondered what was wrong.
Glad that you quit breeding if that is what you were getting.
You realize that many, many other breeders didn’t have horses crippled young, that they did so much right so that would not happen and that many do start them early and still have them going strong into old age?
Didn’t you read the posts before yours?
You really should not generalize because you had a bad experience, when you can look around you and see that what happened to you is not happening to many others.
[QUOTE=Bluey;7947613]
If we had been breeding horses that were crippled young we too would have wondered what was wrong.
.[/QUOTE]
Sorry sweetheart but you can’t blame me for the problems in those breeds. I was just the farrier trying to keep them sound for as long as possible.
Go back and look at the breed magazines from before you were born and look at the ads for stallions. They brag about a 1200 pound horse with 000 shoes. Next it will be my fault for the bloodlines with HYPP. :winkgrin:
You are sounding way too much like the clients with young horses that insist they could not be hurting their horses. I saw the horses for the next 20+ years or until they went to kill. The first owner was done with them as soon as they sold the horse. I often saw the horses through multiple owners.
As Matthew Henry said:
None so blind as those that will not see.
Rationalize all you want. I will stick with Dr. Beb Bennett and her scientifically proven
TIMING AND RATE OF SKELETAL
MATURATION IN HORSES
[QUOTE=2enduraceriders;7947706]
Sorry sweetheart but you can’t blame me for the problems in those breeds. I was just the farrier trying to keep them sound for as long as possible.
Go back and look at the breed magazines from before you were born and look at the ads for stallions. They brag about a 1200 pound horse with 000 shoes. Next it will be my fault for the bloodlines with HYPP. :winkgrin:
You are sounding way too much like the clients with young horses that insist they could not be hurting their horses. I saw the horses for the next 20+ years or until they went to kill. The first owner was done with them as soon as they sold the horse. I often saw the horses through multiple owners.
As Matthew Henry said:
Rationalize all you want. I will stick with Dr. Beb Bennett and her scientifically proven[/QUOTE]
I was wondering when someone would bring the Ranger story to this discussion.
Ok, so Dr Bennet will tell you, if we want to wait until maturity, we should not ride a horse before 7-9 years old, when the spine finally closes.
That would be like deciding to leave kids just run loose, not demand anything of them, until they are past 20 to start teaching them and training for sports.
Right, that makes much sense.
When it comes to navicular, first, there are several different problems under that name, but for some of those problems, we knew over half a century ago some lines that carried them and we didn’t use them.
If you had horses with navicular, I would guess it was not because they were started young, but because they had a predisposition to having those problems.
As for any other like shoe size, excuse me, have you not noticed quarter horses come in many, many sizes, conformations and abilities, not all are halter horses, where that may be true in some of those?
Any extreme is bad, no matter where you find it, in quarter horses also, that is true.
Don’t know where you come with HYPP, what does that mutation have to do with starting horses early or later?
[QUOTE=Bluey;7946013]
Yes and those TBs went on to make good school and show horses, fox hunters, trail horses, ranch horses and lived long lives with normal wear and tear, just like any other horse does, no matter when it was started, as long as it was managed properly at all stages of it’s life.[/QUOTE]
Agreed.
I had one of them.
Got him as a 6yo after he washed out as a racer & stayed on as the trainer’s pony horse. He lived to be 27 & had probably 10 more good years left when I lost him to an accident.
If you wish to stick with Deb Bennett, EnduraNCERIDER, then you also have to accept that she puts horses into three main categories
riding horses
pulling horses
race horses
Thus,according to her, we should not be riding TBs in performance
You must have been shoing halter horses
I’ve had farriers tell me what excellent feet my reining mare had, including size, and she is an AQHA? App cross
Our stallion, double Mighty Bright bred, started as a two year old is still going strong today, aged 23, now gelded and working as a non pro horse. He has excellent feet, all four being white. Never chip, and he is barefoot sound
By the way, my mare has never had joint injections, something that seems very common in many Warmbloods, from reading various sites
Dr Stephan O Grady, both a farrier and a vet, who does extensive equine podiatry work and consultation, readily stated that the main cause of lameness is Bad Farriery.
The work of Dr Robert Bowker has shown that the difference between a’bad footed horse’ and a 'good footed horse, is management, with genetics being minor.
Many stock horse shown at an early age, are shod, before that foot is fully developed. Add confinement, as many show horse are, and you set up the ideal conditions for navicular
The back of the foot, remains under developed, in regards to digital cushion, lateral cartilages
Navicular is pretty much 100% man made.
Maybe, you should have told your clients not to shoe those two year olds, nor confine them to stalls, or ride halter horses !
I have heard Dr Deb Bennett speak, and some of her stuff is out in left field!
I rather listen to vets that are are the cutting edge of equine lameness evaluation, involved with latest technology like shock wave therapy and stem cell research-vets that are not just steeped in academia, but daily do PPE s on top equine athletes
By the way Dr Deb Bennett is a paleontologist and not a DVM
Far as genetic defects, we can go into that in a separate topic. Far as HYPP, it is an autosomal dominant defect that occurred during the conception of Impressive, who was by the TB Three Bars
Genetic mutations happen all the time in all breeds, and thus the responsible breeder test fro them. Again, hypp pos horses became popular in the halter industry, as that is Impressive’s claim to fame. I think you shod too many halter horses!
[QUOTE=2DogsFarm;7947744]
Agreed.
I had one of them.
Got him as a 6yo after he washed out as a racer & stayed on as the trainer’s pony horse. He lived to be 27 & had probably 10 more good years left when I lost him to an accident.[/QUOTE]
We raced our horses, some for several years, then retrained them and sent the bigger, quieter ones to a fox hunting stable in Virginia, that had a standing order with us for as many as we wanted to send them, they loved those horses.
Most that we sent were TBs, some were quarter horses.
At times we would get a call from someone in the East contacting us directly, because our name was on the papers, to see if we had more like this or that horse, he was such a wonderful hunter.
The TBs that were a bit more horse, we sold to neighboring ranches and they made good circle horses.
Most of our race bred quarter horses had a very good market for breed show horses.
Those were all started as early twos and raced sound and went on to have long, healthy and sound lives.
Some of those we kept ourselves.
I will say, if you handle horses properly, each horse according to what that horse is and needs, when you start them under saddle really is not going to matter as far as being sound and healthy for a long life.
