Why are Quarter Horses started earlier than warmbloods?

[poltroon]

The performance-bred quarter horses are also much smaller than your typical warmblood - 15 hands, maybe less compared to the 17 hand european horses. Quarter Horses have been selected for early maturing individuals as well. But their build and genetics is much more amenable to working younger.

There’s something to the money point and there’s also the fact, I think, that Quarter Horse people also tend to be livestock owners working with shorter-lived and faster maturing species that impacts how they want to manage their animals.

But, I’ve known plenty of QH and TB types who were started as long yearlings who had long and productive performance careers, at least those bred a couple decades ago. I won’t vouch for the horses being bred now, and what’s being passed off as QH halter horses right now just makes me cry.

[kdreger]

I also have seen what shows up at the low end auctions. I agree with not starting horses till 3 or later. It is sad when joint injections are expected and are the norm.
I also know of some old horses that were started early but they are outnumbered by the ones that did not stay sound and were moved on by their owners.

[Flash44]

Most TBs are started in the fall of their yearling year.

[Flash44]

Wow, another thread to debate whether Group A is inferior to Group B. Do you have statistics that show the % of quarter horses that are started at age 2-3 years and the % of wbs that are started at a later age, or are you going off your limited experience of being “new to looking at the breed?”

Can’t tell you how many aged (20+ yrs) quarter horses I’ve seen at shows, competitions, out trail riding for hours, etc over the past 10 years that I’ve been involved in the breed, but it’s WAY WAY more than wbs. My son’s 4H leader won’t look at a mount for her riding program that is not at least a teenager, and prefers the stock type breeds for their soundness, longevity and temperment. She’s been doing this for about 40 years, so maybe she is onto something. And the horses in her program have a very very active lifestyle - they do a lot of shows and competitions and activities.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=kdreger;7947975]
I also have seen what shows up at the low end auctions. I agree with not starting horses till 3 or later. It is sad when joint injections are expected and are the norm.
I also know of some old horses that were started early but they are outnumbered by the ones that did not stay sound and were moved on by their owners.[/QUOTE]

You may want to realize that joint injections today are used because we have developed techniques and products that you can use for those.

Joint injections before were just not a good idea, that is why it was not done then as much as today.
Some veterinary protocols use them as preventive, is how that knowledge is advancing.

My current main ranch horse is 17, was started very early and trained for two years, then went to a futurity at three, competed some, then was a ranch horse and team penner for many years.
He is sound, never has needed any injections at all.
He has Cushings, that is also not because he was started under saddle very early.
I have had many horses started early that worked into old age and never needed any joint injections on any of them.

Of course there is wear and tear on any horse used hard and injecting joints where appropriate doesn’t mean the horse needs it because it was started early, but because of that wear and tear, how he is managed and his conformation.

[red_mares]

@Bluey;7945993

So, this will go contrary to some, but just consider this for a bit before jumping on the bandwagon that early start is just without merit.

By the way, TBs are also started early, not just quarter horses.

Everyone I know either starts Dutch Harness Horses early or wishes they did. As a long yearling they are tolerable; as a bull-headed, tough, 16H+ 3 or 4 yro, not so much.

[KIloBright]

When discussing this topic, you can’t take examples of young stock horses pushed to the max for some major futurity, like the NRHA 3yr old reining futurity, and then apply it across the board to all stock horses that are lightly started as two and three year olds, never pushed.
You also can’t use halter horses that win at upper end, and apply their conformation as examples of stock horses that come from performance lines
I am in no way justifying the direction that halter has gone, but the fact remains that it has become as specialized as any other discipline at upper end, thus no longer having any direct relationship far as show casing future athletic ability, nor the ability to stay sound with work under saddle
Once many of those upper level halter horses never saw a saddle,then the criteria of selecting riding horses was left behind
Halter, is an entity onto itself, no different than a human body builder, who could not run a marathon to save his life!
Far as joint injections, , I don’t agree with the ‘preventative’ joint injections of healthy joints, but many top athletes, including human athletes, suffer joint damage,it is part of being an upper end athlete, and there is nothing wrong with using joint injections on those horses, to help them to stay working sound.
Talking to dressage people, it is obvious that high end performance stock horses are not alone, far as support , using joint injections
I don’t show at the World level, thus have never pushed a young horse to extreme, and thus have never had a horse that has required joint injections, even those started as two year olds
There is a difference in riding a two year old lightly, keeping that horse in a snaffle until he is 4 or 5, and pushing one to be performing one handed in a curb, as a three year old, doing spins, flying changes and sliding stops, capable of winning the NRHA futurity
So, this topic can’t use generalizations, using those horses pushed towards a major futurity, as representing young stock horses in general
There are more young horses ruined, sitting in the field as pasture buffs, then there ever were, starting a young stock horse correctly
Again, research as shown that navicular disease is almost entirely man made,although there are some predisposing conformation factors that will contribute to it
Navicular syndrome always comes before true navicular disease Navicular syndrome is pain at the caudal part of the foot, involving soft tissue damage
Early shoing of young horses, and under developed back of the foot, all cause toe first landings, and the start of navicular disease
Thus, in many cases, blame the management of those young horses, and not the horse itself

[Foxtrot_s]

endurance rider - I’m confused - you say you stopped breeding Paints/Appy’s because it broke your heart, and you say you were just the farrier?

Basically, it is just horsemanship whether to push a horse and how hard. Not rocket science.

[KSAQHA]

[QUOTE=bugsynskeeter;7946074]
While I am not saying that some reiners are started as long yearlings, there are NO events for reiners as a 2 y/o. Reining Futurities start the late summer/fall of the 3 y/o year. Pleasure horses and HUS have 2 y/o futurities.

I personally like to start them as long yearlings, then kick them back out until the late spring of their 2 y/o year. My filly just turned 2 and will be started in a few weeks.[/QUOTE]

You’re right, no 2-yr old reining futurities. I’ve been following an in-law’s two long yearlings, that have been under saddle the last 6 weeks with a reining trainer, and was under the impression they were going to be competing this year. Both horses are small and still have ‘baby’ tails…just seems wrong to me.

[KIloBright]

[QUOTE=KSAQHA;7949449]
You’re right, no 2-yr old reining futurities. I’ve been following an in-law’s two long yearlings, that have been under saddle the last 6 weeks with a reining trainer, and was under the impression they were going to be competing this year. Both horses are small and still have ‘baby’ tails…just seems wrong to me.[/QUOTE]

Right, there are no two year old reining futurities, BUT those three year old reining futurities have that horse up in a curb, doing flying changes, spins, rollbacks , fast and slow circles, and sliding stops
This requires those reining prospects to be started every bit as early as any two year old pleasure horse, whether that reiner is shown not until he is three, and he sure as heck is shown with way more demand placed on his joints.

[2enduraceriders]

[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;7948776]
endurance rider - I’m confused - you say you stopped breeding Paints/Appy’s because it broke your heart, and you say you were just the farrier?

Basically, it is just horsemanship whether to push a horse and how hard. Not rocket science.[/QUOTE]
In 40+ years of loving horses and doing my best for them, yes I still find it heartbreaking when an otherwise healthy young horse is facing years of pain and an end to it’s riding career.

[propspony]

[QUOTE=2DogsFarm;7946009]

Consider racing Thoroughbreds who are started as “2yos” - quotes since they are generally born in March-May, then officially become 1yo the following January.
So your field of running 2yos is in reality a bunch of long yearlings.[/QUOTE]

Nope. Only if you have a really late baby. Baby (2YO) races don’t start until June or later.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=2enduraceriders;7949870]
In 40+ years of loving horses and doing my best for them, yes I still find it heartbreaking when an otherwise healthy young horse is facing years of pain and an end to it’s riding career.[/QUOTE]

Are you not worrying about something that probably won’t ever happen?

Everything, horses and humans and all that is alive and has any kind of active life has a chance of, if they are lucky to live long enough and/or unlucky to get sick or have injuries, to have some kind of handicaps.

We have raised, trained, competed and retired into very old age plenty ourselves and tracked others of our breeding that did the same, for decades and know many others that have done the same.

I really am not seeing your point that, because you had some bad breeding experiences, you didn’t seem to be able to do well with your breeding program, to think that everyone else is the same?

Do look around and realize that no, many do just fine, have sound horses and those horses have good lives into old age.

[Mukluk]

I think starting a horse as a older 2 year old is fine- IF you just do minimal basics- lots of ground work very short little rides (say 15 minutes). I think some people are just impatient and or greedy and decide to do too much too soon. If I ever have a young horse I will carefully match it’s work load to what it has the maturity to handle- and if in doubt will go the more conservative route. I think that is doing right by the horse. Many people are saying that the horses started young are sound for their life span- but I have certainly seen middle aged horses (age 10-12) that were pushed too hard as youngsters that are F&*)(ed up for life- I think that is just tragic.

[Janet]

There are many factors which determine how long a horse will be sound:

One is conformation

Another is other genetic tendencies (such as arthritis) that do not show up as confrmation

Another is when they are started

Another is how hard they are worked over their career.

Also the quality and consistency of the farriery and veterinary care

And the owner/rider/trainer’s attention to changes in behavior soundness.

---

Personally, I think that age of starting is probably relatively low, compared to the others, as a cause of early breakdown.

I have known horse of all types (QH, TB,WB, Ponies, etc.) that break down early, and others that last forever.

Anecdotal evidence of “my horse” is just that, anecdotal. But I have to point out that the only horse that I have had to retire because of lameness (Spy) is a TB who was not backed until he was 8. He developed severe arthritis, which was probably genetic, and unrelated to when he was started.

In the case of the many QHs that DO break down early, I expect that is more due to the fact that breeders were breeding for small feet, than due to when they were started. Though it is quite likely that starting a horse with small feet early makes it worse.

Personally, my horses get a lot of ponying as 2 yo,and get lightly started as 3 yo, going into “proper” work as 4 yo. But I do not think that starting them earlier, all other things being equal, is a problem.

[S1969]

I wonder if the real question isn’t when the horse started but how the horse is started. I doubt that being backed as a long 2 year old by a light and gentle rider doing a few short rides per week is inherently harmful. The frequency and duration of the rides, and then the type of riding done is probably more of the issue than the age. Backing a 2 year old a handful of times and turning it out for the winter and restarting at 3 and riding lightly for another year might be better for a horse than waiting until it’s 4, backing it and putting it right into heavy work for the next 10 years.

As with everything, I think it depends. I would think that conformation, as mentioned above - is a huge factor on the soundness of a horse over time…maybe more than the age at which it was started.

[Bluey]

I have a friend that bought this quarter horse and started him as a two, competed heavily, winning much for many years.
She had a kid, that later competed with that horse thru many high school years, then used him to teach kids to ride and compete, until they finally retired him, sound and healthy, around 35.
They just euthanized him a year ago at 42.

There was much that went into that horse living to that extraordinary old age sound and healthy, but also recognize that starting him as two didn’t seem to hurt him any.

[KIloBright]

[QUOTE=S1969;7950301]
I wonder if the real question isn’t when the horse started but how the horse is started. I doubt that being backed as a long 2 year old by a light and gentle rider doing a few short rides per week is inherently harmful. The frequency and duration of the rides, and then the type of riding done is probably more of the issue than the age. Backing a 2 year old a handful of times and turning it out for the winter and restarting at 3 and riding lightly for another year might be better for a horse than waiting until it’s 4, backing it and putting it right into heavy work for the next 10 years.

As with everything, I think it depends. I would think that conformation, as mentioned above - is a huge factor on the soundness of a horse over time…maybe more than the age at which it was started.[/QUOTE]

Exactly, as I explained in my post. You can’t take a young horse that is being pushed towards a major futurity , and then apply those negative results across the board to any stock horse being started correctly, lightly, and not pushed at two or three, far as longevity of soundness, as there are many of us here, who have raised stock horses with correct conformation, fed them correctly, did correct hoof care, started them as tow and three year olds, and those horses are still going strong way into old age.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=KIloBright;7950352]
Exactly, as I explained in my post. You can’t take a young horse that is being pushed towards a major futurity , and then apply those negative results across the board to any stock horse being started correctly, lightly, and not pushed at two or three, far as longevity of soundness, as there are many of us here, who have raised stock horses with correct conformation, fed them correctly, did correct hoof care, started them as tow and three year olds, and those horses are still going strong way into old age.[/QUOTE]

I wish you quit using the example of that imaginary futurity horse, because many, many of those do just fine into old age.
I have had plenty of those myself, have one right now that, at 17, has never needed injecting and has always been sound.

There are many of today’s reiners showing into their 20’s, that were started and competed in the futurities.

How sound a horse stays depend on how you train and ride it, not necessarily if you start it early or later, or train for a futurity or not.

All of us have our ideas about things, but when discussing them, we ought to realize that maybe some of them are not quite adding up, like saying it is ok to start early, but not if you do this or that, when we know many, many that are fine doing just that.

If you are training several colts for a futurity, you know which ones to go light with, which ones push more, which ones to send down the road for another, lighter job.
That is the same no matter what we do, you gear your training to the horse you have.

If you don’t, then yes, you can hurt a horse, but not because you were training for a futurity, but because that horse was in the wrong training for it.

Some of the race colts we started we sent home early, some were just not showing that they wanted to run or were going to be much good at it, some were not taking to that training well enough, some needed to grow up more.

Some owners took our advice and did other with their horses and those that didn’t and sent them to someone else, until they found someone wanting to just train anything.
They didn’t do any good anyway.

You do what works best for each horse, is what you do when you are the trainer or owner.

[KIloBright]

Bluey, I too have had futurity horses. My one horse, I showed in a two year old futurity The futurity had a rail, conformation and pattern element. There were 32 two year olds in that competition, and we finished in the top 10, under all 4 NSBA judges, and I don’t have an indoor arena.
That horse went on to win ROMs in trial, western pl, HUS and halter, both non pro and open, as I show both. I have trail ridden her countless miles.
Her only problem is that she is IR, thus has has some bouts of laminitis, which has nothing to do with me starting her at two. So yes, it can be done, but I also did not show her at thE ReichaRT
I have ridden other horses in futurities also, but you will note that I said Top open venue 2 nd 3 year old futurities, as thOse are where the negative out comes arise out of
Those three year old reiners that head to that NRHA 3yr old futurity, have many of them pushed to the point that only drugs are keeping them going
In fact, when Dwayne Latimer spoke at one of the Horse breeder;s seminars ( in this open drug policy time frame, NRHA , he stated when questioned, concerning when reining becomes an Olympic discipline, that training techniques for reiners will need to change,
Dwayne has won both Olympic Gold In reining and the NRHA 3 year old futuriity
When questioned, in the question and answer period, concerning his use of drugs, he stated that he always played by the rules, and thus it depended on whether he was showing NRHA or Olympic
Thus reiners themselves realize that they have to change their program, in order to keep reiners sound to show at Olympic events, without the use of drugs
Bill Collins a renowned horseman (you can google him ), who was very instrumental in the cutting horse industry, besides having competed in many events, including jumping, in all his seminars until the day he died, campaigned for taking the big purses off of the young horses. That was a major point for him
Thus, not just the futurity, but the level, is very important. With something like 150, 000 up for winning the NRHA three year old futurity, those horses are pushed, and many are only going by the time they get there, with drugs

I have friends that show at the Cowhorse supreme in Red Deer. The show attracts some of the best cowhorses and reiners from both sides of the boarders, and yes, some of those horses stayed sound
High Sign Nugget, won both the snaffle bit and the bridle working cowhorse futurities, and remained sound for many years. His sire High Sign, was still showing at age 22, having won 50 some ApHC World and national titles, plus wins on the open circuit
It is possible, but there is no doubt that young horses pushed towards the very top open futurities in their discipline, often pay the price
Maybe you backed off, if the horse came up sore, but there are just as many people with major training invested in a futurity horse, eligible for the 'really big bucks, if in actual purse or breeding fees, that don;t back off when that horse shows them that they should
It is a fact that many young race horses break down. Of course, the management of many race horses, plays a part, but one still can;'t dis miss the fact of stressing young immature joints to the max
I agree it depends on how you ride that horse, but that young horse who has a shot of winning the NRHA 3year old futurity, is going to be pushed, way more than a horse in some local futurity.
That is a fact that has been discussed at enough horse conferences that I have attended, with insight from performance vets, and even trainers and horse people themselves
Thus, I.m sorry, as , while futurity horses can stay sound in a good program, it is also a fact that the way many futurity horses are pushed towards MAJOR FUTURITIES, is a proven factor in their failure to remain sound long term
In fact, one equine vet (he is married to the reining trainer, Shawna Sapergia ) , stated that we no longer breed for longevity of soundness
Many horses, that win major futurities are retired to breeding, thus their ability to stand up to work and stay sound long term, is not tested
Nope, I stand by what I said