Here is info on Bill Collins
http://www.horsejournals.com/bill-collins-legendary-horseman
Here is info on Duanne Latimer (yes, I miss spelled his first name above )
http://www.horsejournals.com/duane-latimer-canada’s-reining-royalty
[QUOTE=KIloBright;7950617]
Bluey, I too have had futurity horses. My one horse, I showed in a two year old futurity The futurity had a rail, conformation and pattern element. There were 32 two year olds in that competition, and we finished in the top 10, under all 4 NSBA judges, and I don’t have an indoor arena.
That horse went on to win ROMs in trial, western pl, HUS and halter, both non pro and open, as I show both. I have trail ridden her countless miles.
Her only problem is that she is IR, thus has has some bouts of laminitis, which has nothing to do with me starting her at two. So yes, it can be done, but I also did not show her at thE ReichaRT
I have ridden other horses in futurities also, but you will note that I said Top open venue 2 nd 3 year old futurities, as thOse are where the negative out comes arise out of
Those three year old reiners that head to that NRHA 3yr old futurity, have many of them pushed to the point that only drugs are keeping them going
In fact, when Dwayne Latimer spoke at one of the Horse breeder;s seminars ( in this open drug policy time frame, NRHA , he stated when questioned, concerning when reining becomes an Olympic discipline, that training techniques for reiners will need to change,
Dwayne has won both Olympic Gold In reining and the NRHA 3 year old futuriity
When questioned, in the question and answer period, concerning his use of drugs, he stated that he always played by the rules, and thus it depended on whether he was showing NRHA or Olympic
Thus reiners themselves realize that they have to change their program, in order to keep reiners sound to show at Olympic events, without the use of drugs
Bill Collins a renowned horseman (you can google him ), who was very instrumental in the cutting horse industry, besides having competed in many events, including jumping, in all his seminars until the day he died, campaigned for taking the big purses off of the young horses. That was a major point for him
Thus, not just the futurity, but the level, is very important. With something like 150, 000 up for winning the NRHA three year old futurity, those horses are pushed, and many are only going by the time they get there, with drugs
I have friends that show at the Cowhorse supreme in Red Deer. The show attracts some of the best cowhorses and reiners from both sides of the boarders, and yes, some of those horses stayed sound
High Sign Nugget, won both the snaffle bit and the bridle working cowhorse futurities, and remained sound for many years. His sire High Sign, was still showing at age 22, having won 50 some ApHC World and national titles, plus wins on the open circuit
It is possible, but there is no doubt that young horses pushed towards the very top open futurities in their discipline, often pay the price
Maybe you backed off, if the horse came up sore, but there are just as many people with major training invested in a futurity horse, eligible for the 'really big bucks, if in actual purse or breeding fees, that don;t back off when that horse shows them that they should
It is a fact that many young race horses break down. Of course, the management of many race horses, plays a part, but one still can;'t dis miss the fact of stressing young immature joints to the max
I agree it depends on how you ride that horse, but that young horse who has a shot of winning the NRHA 3year old futurity, is going to be pushed, way more than a horse in some local futurity.
That is a fact that has been discussed at enough horse conferences that I have attended, with insight from performance vets, and even trainers and horse people themselves
Thus, I.m sorry, as , while futurity horses can stay sound in a good program, it is also a fact that the way many futurity horses are pushed towards MAJOR FUTURITIES, is a proven factor in their failure to remain sound long term
In fact, one equine vet (he is married to the reining trainer, Shawna Sapergia ) , stated that we no longer breed for longevity of soundness
Many horses, that win major futurities are retired to breeding, thus their ability to stand up to work and stay sound long term, is not tested
Nope, I stand by what I said[/QUOTE]
So, what you are saying there is that people that starts horses early should do so carefully.
Well, that is what I have been saying, it is not when you start them, but that you do it right for the horse in front of you.
That some may not do right by the horses may happen at any age and that is wrong at any age.
A trainer that pushes the horse may happen any time and not just for any futurity, that is a different question than if starting a horse early is wrong.
That was my point that I don’t seem to be able to explain properly.
is there no data available? Do the breed associations maintain records that can be used for analysis?
I think too that often a lot of the drilling of young horses for a particular event is more to benefit the rider (or perhaps the peace of mind of the trainer) than is strictly necessary. Horses learn a lot faster than people. 
And a good mind is an essential part of those “how to stay sound” genetics as well, for that reason.
Bluely:
So, what you are saying there is that people that starts horses early should do so carefully.
Well, that is what I have been saying, it is not when you start them, but that you do it right for the horse in front of you.
That some may not do right by the horses may happen at any age and that is wrong at any age.
A trainer that pushes the horse may happen any time and not just for any futurity, that is a different question than if starting a horse early is wrong.
That was my point that I don’t seem to be able to explain properly.
True, but there is no way you can’t push a young horse towards a major futurity, and be competitive. You only have so many months to get that horse to that level, even when starting to ride them as long yearlings
With the futurity that I showed in, first place was 20,000 dollars. I did my own training, thus I could afford to back off, should that horse have become un sound
That is not the case in many circumstances, where someone bought a 200, 000 prospect, then invested training at$ 1, 500 t0 2,000 dollars a month, for a year or more, eligible to win 150, 000 dollars, not to count the thousands in breeding fees that such a win generates
In fact, there has been a major discussion of taking the money off of the young horses. Ie, putting the bigger purses on the Maturities instead
Then of course, the question is, would that stop people from starting horses as long yearlings and pushing them, or only give them more time to push them, thus changing nothing???
Why have I brought up this point, when I raised stock horses, and think nothing wrong with starting two year olds??
Because any industry has to police itself from within, and not wait until changes are made from without, There is a difference between lightly starting a young horse, aiming him towards some local /regional futurity, and going for that big league futurity, with very tough competition, along with a big purse
That is why the NSBA was formed, to change the negative public opinion on western pleasure horses, and why some TW horse trainers spoke out about soring, and why Billy Collins, in one of his last speeches at the Horse Breeder and owner’s Conference, said ‘take the money off of the young horses’
Yes, a horse an break down at any age when pushed, but you have more time to bring that horse along, to be competitive at a later age, and that older horse has a mature skeletal system that can stand more pushing.
I believe range horses were broke around age 5, and then put in full days of work-something that would not be expected of a two year old
When two year old pleasure horses at major futurities move like a finished aged pleasure horse, and three year old reiners are running those patterns at the NRHA futurity , as they do, full up in the bridle-how could they not have been pushed?
[QUOTE=KIloBright;7950732]
Bluely:
So, what you are saying there is that people that starts horses early should do so carefully.
Well, that is what I have been saying, it is not when you start them, but that you do it right for the horse in front of you.
That some may not do right by the horses may happen at any age and that is wrong at any age.
A trainer that pushes the horse may happen any time and not just for any futurity, that is a different question than if starting a horse early is wrong.
That was my point that I don’t seem to be able to explain properly.
True, but there is no way you can’t push a young horse towards a major futurity, and be competitive. You only have so many months to get that horse to that level, even when starting to ride them as long yearlings
With the futurity that I showed in, first place was 20,000 dollars. I did my own training, thus I could afford to back off, should that horse have become un sound
That is not the case in many circumstances, where someone bought a 200, 000 prospect, then invested training at$ 1, 500 t0 2,000 dollars a month, for a year or more, eligible to win 150, 000 dollars, not to count the thousands in breeding fees that such a win generates
In fact, there has been a major discussion of taking the money off of the young horses. Ie, putting the bigger purses on the Maturities instead
Then of course, the question is, would that stop people from starting horses as long yearlings and pushing them, or only give them more time to push them, thus changing nothing???
Why have I brought up this point, when I raised stock horses, and think nothing wrong with starting two year olds??
Because any industry has to police itself from within, and not wait until changes are made from without, There is a difference between lightly starting a young horse, aiming him towards some local /regional futurity, and going for that big league futurity, with very tough competition, along with a big purse
That is why the NSBA was formed, to change the negative public opinion on western pleasure horses, and why some TW horse trainers spoke out about soring, and why Billy Collins, in one of his last speeches at the Horse Breeder and owner’s Conference, said ‘take the money off of the young horses’
Yes, a horse an break down at any age when pushed, but you have more time to bring that horse along, to be competitive at a later age, and that older horse has a mature skeletal system that can stand more pushing.
I believe range horses were broke around age 5, and then put in full days of work-something that would not be expected of a two year old
When two year old pleasure horses at major futurities move like a finished aged pleasure horse, and three year old reiners are running those patterns at the NRHA futurity , as they do, full up in the bridle-how could they not have been pushed?[/QUOTE]
Not necessarily, many horses bred well when you start them today all you do is ride them, they already have the moves.
Not all futurity horses, reining or racing or whatever are “damaged” because they were trained for those futurities, as all those that are now old and still sound and healthy can attest to, like my current and past horses and so many others I know of directly.
My point, just because a horse is trained for a futurity, that doesn’t mean he is not trained right, for that horse.
I know what you are saying, Bluely, and I agree in part, but at the same time, a young horse pushed with a set deadline in mind, has a greater chance of breaking down then that same horse , not pushed to the same degree.
Does not mean all young futurity horses will break down, just like all smokers don’t get lung cancer, but you can’t deny the simple bio mechanics, that there is an increased risk, versus taking a slower route, with the same young horse, fed the same, same good conformation, etc
While a cowhorse has ‘cow’ and specific performance lines have been bred for certain attributes- like the topline and movement of a pleasure horse, or the cattiness of a cutter, it still takes a heck of a lot of training/riding to compete at that level where all the horses are well bred, with natural ability-then very slight differences separate that reiner who wins out of a class of 300 or more horses, and the one that was just in the pack
I can look at some back issues that I have from our Horse breeder and Owner;s Conference.
There was a speaker there, who gave statistics of one of the major cowhorse sales (might have been reiners or cutters, as I have to look back for that info )
These horses sold for 100 grand and up as yearlings.
Only a fraction ever came close to winning their purchase price back, with some breaking down before they ever got to the show pen
When you talk futurity, just like when you talk about versatility, you have to also take of the time period and the level of competition
I m not saying that one can’t win regional level type futurities, or even a few very upper end, without that young horse breaking down, but the fact remains, that few horses showing in those upper end futurities and winning them, ever need to prove longevity of soundness, as they are retired for breeding
Those race horses that continue to run and win, year after year, like John Henry and Pharlap, are rare.
Here is something you might wish to read, that goes into the entire question of pushing young horses, whether racing or for futurities
http://www.westernhorseman.com/sections/horsemanship/1840-gambling-on-the-future
Here is one key paragraph, and you can read the rest
“The difficulty with futurities and with 2-year-olds in training is that you force the horse to train against the calendar and not along with his own progression,” Bramlage says. “I am very much in favor of de-emphasizing performance at 2 years of age, but emphasizing the fact that horses should start training at 2 years of age, while progressing according to how they are handling it.”
Jim Neubert, son of clinician Bryan Neubert, is also an advocate of tailoring training to the individual horse.
“It doesn’t matter if it’s a cutting futurity, reining futurity or snaffle-bit futurity, it’s a lot to put on a 3-year-old,” says Neubert, who starts colts with his brother, Luke. “Some horses are mature enough that they’re ready to show in July of their 3-year-old year, but there are a lot of them that aren’t. As a whole, it would be better if their futurity year was in their 4-year-old year.”
Read more: http://www.westernhorseman.com/sections/horsemanship/1840-gambling-on-the-future#ixzz3OTlMS4Va
[QUOTE=KIloBright;7950920]
I know what you are saying, Bluely, and I agree in part, but at the same time, a young horse pushed with a set deadline in mind, has a greater chance of breaking down then that same horse , not pushed to the same degree.
Does not mean all young futurity horses will break down, just like all smokers don’t get lung cancer, but you can’t deny the simple bio mechanics, that there is an increased risk, versus taking a slower route, with the same young horse, fed the same, same good conformation, etc
While a cowhorse has ‘cow’ and specific performance lines have been bred for certain attributes- like the topline and movement of a pleasure horse, or the cattiness of a cutter, it still takes a heck of a lot of training/riding to compete at that level where all the horses are well bred, with natural ability-then very slight differences separate that reiner who wins out of a class of 300 or more horses, and the one that was just in the pack
I can look at some back issues that I have from our Horse breeder and Owner;s Conference.
There was a speaker there, who gave statistics of one of the major cowhorse sales (might have been reiners or cutters, as I have to look back for that info )
These horses sold for 100 grand and up as yearlings.
Only a fraction ever came close to winning their purchase price back, with some breaking down before they ever got to the show pen
When you talk futurity, just like when you talk about versatility, you have to also take of the time period and the level of competition
I m not saying that one can’t win regional level type futurities, or even a few very upper end, without that young horse breaking down, but the fact remains, that few horses showing in those upper end futurities and winning them, ever need to prove longevity of soundness, as they are retired for breeding
Those race horses that continue to run and win, year after year, like John Henry and Pharlap, are rare.
Here is something you might wish to read, that goes into the entire question of pushing young horses, whether racing or for futurities
http://www.westernhorseman.com/sections/horsemanship/1840-gambling-on-the-future
Here is one key paragraph, and you can read the rest
“The difficulty with futurities and with 2-year-olds in training is that you force the horse to train against the calendar and not along with his own progression,” Bramlage says. “I am very much in favor of de-emphasizing performance at 2 years of age, but emphasizing the fact that horses should start training at 2 years of age, while progressing according to how they are handling it.”
Jim Neubert, son of clinician Bryan Neubert, is also an advocate of tailoring training to the individual horse.
“It doesn’t matter if it’s a cutting futurity, reining futurity or snaffle-bit futurity, it’s a lot to put on a 3-year-old,” says Neubert, who starts colts with his brother, Luke. “Some horses are mature enough that they’re ready to show in July of their 3-year-old year, but there are a lot of them that aren’t. As a whole, it would be better if their futurity year was in their 4-year-old year.”
You do realize that what they say is what I have been trying to say all along, don’t you?
Too many horses do fine under too many programs, by any measure, even those geared to futurities to say any different than just that, don’t focus on the age they are started, don’t focus on what they are started for, but that they are started right and managed right, at any age, for any task, that is what matters.
I grant you that in a way we have been saying the same thing, but not entirely.
Yes, we agree that it is not wrong to start a young stock horse correctly, slowly, and letting the horse tell you when it is time to back off.
Yes, not all futurity horses break down, BUT, as that article states, it is un avoidable that once major purses were put on young horses, esp those that involved hard turns and stops, it also became true that many futurity horses are trained not by individual needs, but by the clock, needing to be ready for some big name futurity
If you never had to go down this track, kept that young horse’s interests always ahead of any financial win considerations-then kudos to you
That does not change the fact , that is you had to pick a population of young stock horses that are pushed, often beyond their physical and mental ability, it is that futurity horse
No, those horsemen in that article are not saying exactly the same thing as you are
You are only taking the information where that trainer/owner will back off, and forget about a major competition, taking the future of that horse into account
That is all too often not the case, and why that entire topic of futurity horses and pushing them came into discussion in the first place!
They voice the direction that futurities have gone, the tendency to train these young horses against the clock, as the purses grow, and how the number of horses drop, from those futurity years to maturity events.
Sure, many are not shown again for many reasons, but also many that are pushed, don’t make it the maturities
I have seen enough young horses pushed for these major futurities , to have seen minds blown, if not the joints
Many trainers make their lives by the success that they have in the show pen.
Also, there are owners, that have money from many other venues, not really true horsemen, who invest in some performance horse, The horse to them is just an investment, and sometimes, even if the trainer advises them to back off, that owner wants results, regardless of the best interests of that horse
In fact, I attended a talk, which gave a scenario, where the audience had to decide who was most at fault, when this young horses was pushed-the vet, the owner or the trainer. I won’t take the time to present the details of that scenario
Some of the participants put the major blame on the owner, or the vet or the trainer. In the end, it was concluded that all parties shared the blame equally
No, unfortunately, even with good exceptions, it remains a fact that starting young horses correctly,actually helps to build bone density and many of these horses have long careers under saddle and stay sound. I own some of those
It is also a fact, that human nature and greed, with purses growing exponentially for these young horses, does have many of these futurity horse pushed beyond their ability to have longevity of soundness, and thus the futurity horse remains a prime example of young stock horses that break down, because in the manner/rate that they are trained
Pushing horses before they are ready is a universal problem and has nothing to do with the age at which they are started, in my opinion. I spent two years with others retraining from scratch a former AHSA working hunter of the year. They quit showing him when drug rules came into being. Given the drug free opportunity to actually learn what was wanted, he became a lovely ride over fences. But it took two years- the time he needed, not the time we dictated.
More recently I declined to sell a nice young horse to an eventer from California who said ‘he needs to be able to go preliminary within a year.’ He probably could have, but I didn’t like the mindset. That horse was started late in his 3 yo year but could have easily been fried by that prospective owner, I think.
I agree that any horse can be pushed beyond what he is ready for, conditioning wise, mentally wise, but having said that, the entire equine industry is aware of the price paid particularly by pushing young horses,as while a two year old is ready for light riding, he still has an immature skeletal system, not to mention mind, that is more likely to cause breakdown, then pushing, say a 4 or 5 year old to the same degree
From racing industry, to 2 and 3 year stock old futurities, there has been a cry be informed and concerned horsemen to take the big purses off of the young horses
I think the link I posted gives a pretty informed middle of the road stance.
Yes, one can have a young futurity horse and still have that horse enjoy a long riding career, providing, money is not put before the welfare of that horse, and that owner/trainer will not push that horse to a certain level of performance, due to the calendar, and not the horse himself, able to handle that training
Unfortunately, as purses have grown for the majority of these big two and three year old futurities, so has the level of competition and degree of difficulty, putting greater demands on these young horses then ever before, to perform to a degree expected of an older horse ,with more years of riding and training.
It is not the age that young horse is started at, but how hard he is pushed.
In order to be competitive today in those major futurities, those young horses have to be ridden harder then young horses with no particular time agenda as when to reach a certain level of training
As I mentioned, I did train my horse for a fall two year old futurity, and she never needed any medical intervention or joint support, bu I was also not aiming for a futurity worth 100, 000 or more, riding against the best trainers in the industry
[QUOTE=KIloBright;7952503]
I agree that any horse can be pushed beyond what he is ready for, conditioning wise, mentally wise, but having said that, the entire equine industry is aware of the price paid particularly by pushing young horses,as while a two year old is ready for light riding, he still has an immature skeletal system, not to mention mind, that is more likely to cause breakdown, then pushing, say a 4 or 5 year old to the same degree
From racing industry, to 2 and 3 year stock old futurities, there has been a cry be informed and concerned horsemen to take the big purses off of the young horses
I think the link I posted gives a pretty informed middle of the road stance.
Yes, one can have a young futurity horse and still have that horse enjoy a long riding career, providing, money is not put before the welfare of that horse, and that owner/trainer will not push that horse to a certain level of performance, due to the calendar, and not the horse himself, able to handle that training
Unfortunately, as purses have grown for the majority of these big two and three year old futurities, so has the level of competition and degree of difficulty, putting greater demands on these young horses then ever before, to perform to a degree expected of an older horse ,with more years of riding and training.
It is not the age that young horse is started at, but how hard he is pushed.
In order to be competitive today in those major futurities, those young horses have to be ridden harder then young horses with no particular time agenda as when to reach a certain level of training
As I mentioned, I did train my horse for a fall two year old futurity, and she never needed any medical intervention or joint support, bu I was also not aiming for a futurity worth 100, 000 or more, riding against the best trainers in the industry[/QUOTE]
Not trying to beat this tired horse any more, but really, why does training “aiming for a futurity worth 100, 000 or more, riding against the best trainers in the industry” does make any difference how you train?
That doesn’t really make much sense to me.
You train the horse you have and you train it by training it well, with the skills you have to train that horse and using the talent that horse brings to the game, no matter if you are going to show that horse in a “small” or “big” futurity or none.
The difference in training for a “big” futurity is what your training skills and the talent of the horse brings to the table, not that you will, as you seen to think, “overtrain” for it.
Sorry, wanted to make this point, because there are many out there that may not know at all what starting colts and training means and don’t want them to get the wrong idea, that some may think that overtraining makes a better horse.
Well, no, not really, if any overtraining happens, it is going to be because the trainer didn’t know when to stop, because it is not a good trainer, not because they are training for this or that and yes, that may not be good for the horse either, making it less apt to perform well.
Overtraining defeats the purpose of training, doesn’t make sense, is not what you do training towards any futurity.
Will repeat once more, many, many horses are started for futurities and most that don’t finish that training and many that do and don’t go on to be top competitors happens for many reasons, rarely because some trainer may not train right.
Many horse owners love to see their horse go to the futurity, many trainers love to train to have a horse to show in futurities.
From all those many that try, if you don’t have the really good horse for it, well, you eventually have to recognize your horse was just not that good or quite ready and do other with that horse.
Still, that horse has all that good, solid, professional training in it, definitely making it a better horse for the rest of it’s life, as so many out there are.
We will have to agree to disagree, I think.
[QUOTE=Bluey;7951124]
You do realize that what they say is what I have been trying to say all along, don’t you?
Too many horses do fine under too many programs, by any measure, even those geared to futurities to say any different than just that, don’t focus on the age they are started, don’t focus on what they are started for, but that they are started right and managed right, at any age, for any task, that is what matters.[/QUOTE]
Well said. We can debate this topic endlessly, but the fact is, no one is keeping track of how many horses of different breeds are started at what ages, and how sound they stay for how many years. So it will remain a debate. My person experience is lots of older stock breeds still going strong in their 20’s and some wb’s in their upper teens who can’t canter. But I’m not going to make a blanket statement regarding either type of horse.
[QUOTE=Flash44;7952873]
Well said. We can debate this topic endlessly, but the fact is, no one is keeping track of how many horses of different breeds are started at what ages, and how sound they stay for how many years. So it will remain a debate. My person experience is lots of older stock breeds still going strong in their 20’s and some wb’s in their upper teens who can’t canter. But I’m not going to make a blanket statement regarding either type of horse.[/QUOTE]
When we were running, every year there were statistics with how many horses were started, how many went to the track, how those performed, some a few outs, some went on to race several years, statistics by horse, by each horse’s form, by breeding, by trainers, by owners, etc.
The more exacting statistics, the WHY some run and some didn’t, those were hard to find because there are so many possible reasons, other than when obvious, a horse was injured or an owner ran out of money, it was too hard to designate any one reason to be more salient than others.
I agree that we will have to disagree to disagree on one point, anyway
I think we both agree that young horses can be trained in such a manner that they are not pushed beyond their ability to stand up to that training, PROVIDING, possible money returns and basic human nature don’t over rule decisions that are best for the long run.
Why do big purses cause many to push young futurity horses beyond their mental and physical capabilites-simple, human nature-with big purses offered
If that young horse can win a major event, then it can be retired to breeding, commanding big purses, and does not really need to stand up to work long term
A trainer /owner is not so tempted to push a young horse, for maybe a 10,000 purse and some local breedings, but make that purse worth $150,000 or more, not to mention possible million dollar syndication, plus huge breeding fees and demand, and the game changes
There is a reason so many horsemen and even vets have spoken out for taking the big purses off of the young horses
Cynics say that it won’t matter, as those that desire any winning edge, will still push those horses to the same degree, and just have more time to do so
Not my words, below, just some more insight:
You can see this change in almost every aspect of the horse industry, but maybe nowhere so dramatically as in the American Racing industry. Where race horses used to have to be at least 4 before they began competing in long heats of 4 mile feats of endurance, the concept of the quick sprint futurities was introduced to allow betters a “glimpse” of the talent coming up. Racing of 2 and 3 year olds in shorter more “humane” races became the norm and were immensely popular for the ability to stage a shorter race in a track that could seat more people, allow for more prospective betters and overall increase the excitement of the race. Soon the only horses racing at maturity were cheap claimers or geldings that didn’t have a career in the breeding shed to look forward to. What has occurred in the racing industry is a significant drop in the number of starts a horse will have in his life paired with an increase in the number of breakdowns.
The same has occurred in the western reined cowhorse industry. What used to be a competition for a mature bridle horse (generally 6 or older) was then turned into a futurity for hackamore horses. As the snaffle bit increased in popularity for it’s ability to accomplish more advanced training more quickly the snaffle bit futurity was born. This is a high dollar competition for young Quarter horses that are 3 years of age. In order to compete in this highly demanding and physical sport those horses are often started under saddle at 18 months.One of the sad parts about this is that right there on the first page of the NRCHA rule book is the purpose of the association: “The purpose of the NRCHA is to improve the quality of the western reined stock horse: to perpetuate the early Spanish traditions of highly trained and well reined working cow horses;” It has traveled quite a way from the goals at it’s inception.
Sadly the tradition of the early Spanish horseman were to not put any metal in their horse’s mouth until age 5 or 6 and to bring them along slowly to protect not only their physical well-being, but mental well being. Spanish tradition would start a horse at 3 or 4 with very light riding with a hackamore until he was ready to move into the two-rein at 5 or 6 and only after he was carefully prepared would be be straight up in the bridle and riding one handed. For many horses this wasn’t until they were 7 or older. Today, a 7 year old reined cow horse is likely ready to retire from the show ring. Not always, but often. It’s like seeing Billy Etbauer still riding in the NFR. Not impossible at his age, but very rare.
This, from the following link;
He (Rod Miller) went on to say, "The caliber of horse needed to make the finals at the Futurity these days has gotten very high. The trainers do not have time to take it slow and train these horses at a pace each can handle without getting sore. Yes the event is demanding, but no more so than many other events that all have drug policies. The only difference is time and the ability of our trainers to get more out of the horses. The brutal truth is trainers have to push these young horses more and more each year just to stay competitive enough to make the finals.
[QUOTE=KIloBright;7953137]
This, from the following link;
He (Rod Miller) went on to say, "The caliber of horse needed to make the finals at the Futurity these days has gotten very high. The trainers do not have time to take it slow and train these horses at a pace each can handle without getting sore. Yes the event is demanding, but no more so than many other events that all have drug policies. The only difference is time and the ability of our trainers to get more out of the horses. The brutal truth is trainers have to push these young horses more and more each year just to stay competitive enough to make the finals.
http://hoovesblog.com/2014/09/07/nhra-drug-rule-change/[/QUOTE]
Not necessarily.
Many trainers just have better horses, more talented to train and better ways of training them than ever.
The ones that are not up with it, well, they grumble.
That has been always so, I have been hearing the same for decades.
Some complain of the judging, some “just know” the winning horses and trainers must be cutting corners or doing something wrong/illegal/unethical to be winning.
Well, some just win because they are better, while doing everything just right for every horse and obviously better than most.
Some more info:
Remember, not my thoughts,just additioanl input from horsemen
Where are all the four mile races today? They began to go extinct shortly after the “futurity” concept was
invented, in the late 19th century – not because racing mature horses four or twelve or twenty miles is cruel (as is
sometimes claimed today), but because futurities were invented
as a marketing ploy
to give prospective bettors
and investors a peep at what was supposedly coming up from the breeding farms.
Those old horsemen knew that you can’t run a two- or three-year-old four miles; you’d kill him. So they
shortened the distance to something between 7/8ths and 2 miles. Betting interest in these races was so great – the
marketing ploy worked – that they simply outcompeted the longer “standard” races by becoming the contests that
best fed the tracks. Today, though, this has been forgotten, so that many perfectly well-intentioned investors
simply do not know that a three year old is not a mature horse and that two year olds have absolutely no business
whatsoever at the racetrack (if all the two year olds were taken off the track tomorrow, 90% of the illegal drugs
and training techniques would disappear tomorrow
Some more input:
http://www.webertrainingstables.com/riding-young
Botomline, on my points that we will need to continue to differ on, Bluey:
1Yes, I believe enough in fellowhorsemen, to recognize that there are great horsemen around that are able to create a competitive young horse, and have enough personnal ethics to not let money gains over shadow what is best for the horse, but to say that is how the majority of futurity horses are trained, is being un realistic
2 I certainly believe one can start a young stock horse, correctly, slowly , and that horse will enjoy longevity of soundness
3/ I cannot stick my head in the sand, ignore the concerns and evidence that money , through either big races or futurities, will often have those young horses pushed to the degree that future soundness is compromised.
4/ Yes, any age horse can be pushed, but there is way less temptation to do so, as the big purses are on those young horses, and not maturity horses, but that older horse has a mature skeletal system that is more able to stand up to a higher degree of stress
5/ there are enough attempts at reforms, towards this pressure put on young horses, by very informed people in the horse industry, that the old saying,‘where there is smoke, there is fire’, applies
[QUOTE=KIloBright;7953173]
Some more info:
Remember, not my thoughts,just additioanl input from horsemen
Where are all the four mile races today? They began to go extinct shortly after the “futurity” concept was
invented, in the late 19th century – not because racing mature horses four or twelve or twenty miles is cruel (as is
sometimes claimed today), but because futurities were invented
as a marketing ploy
to give prospective bettors
and investors a peep at what was supposedly coming up from the breeding farms.
Those old horsemen knew that you can’t run a two- or three-year-old four miles; you’d kill him. So they
shortened the distance to something between 7/8ths and 2 miles. Betting interest in these races was so great – the
marketing ploy worked – that they simply outcompeted the longer “standard” races by becoming the contests that
best fed the tracks. Today, though, this has been forgotten, so that many perfectly well-intentioned investors
simply do not know that a three year old is not a mature horse and that two year olds have absolutely no business
whatsoever at the racetrack (if all the two year olds were taken off the track tomorrow, 90% of the illegal drugs
and training techniques would disappear tomorrow, to[/QUOTE]
Everyone can have opinions, some are a bit out there …
In the years of the four milers, how many were pushed and how many were trained right and …
I will keep repeating, you work with the horse you have, for the task at hand at the time you are doing so.
Not like they did decades ago, but today.
That can be done properly or badly, no question there, if it is western pleasure, all around, racing, polo, dressage, jumping, you name it, the same applies.
Other than that, we will have to agree to disagree on the details, as per any one’s opinions.
