Why are the German so successful

[MysticOakRanch]

@Manni01

No, I think you misunderstood my post in the wilderness, wild animals will eat horses which cannot go forward I don’t think collection is useful for survival

Using that theory, then the Mustang should be the MOST competitive of dressage horses. Or the Chincoteague ponies, or some other feral or wild horses. Sorry, it doesn’t hold water. Northern Europe (Germany and Holland in particular) selectively breed a certain type of horse, and they do influence the FEI in how the sport is judged. No doubt it is a combination of very successful breeding programs (which are partially because of government support and standards for the Studbooks), and then European influence over the judging process.

The Warmblood is NOT bred to survive in the wild, it is bred to be competitive in the equestrian sports.

@Manni01

well if you argue like that… Its a hobby for most Germans as well and somehow with this system even an affordable one…

It is a WAY OF LIFE in Germany. Horse sports in Germany is like baseball and basketball in the US. Government supported, people supported. In the US, horse sports are considered elitist, but when you talk about ball sports - we support them. In the schools, in the parks, everywhere. Want to play a quick pick up round - there is a basketball court in every park in every neighborhood! Softball/baseball, same thing. There are teams in the schools, neighborhood leagues, parks and recs leagues.

Go to Germany, and you will have a harder time finding a basketball court, but there is a riding school on every street corner (I know, not literally!). And like ball sports in the US, it is inexpensive with government funding and support. As you even note in this next quote.

@Manni01

Also if a club offers lessons for the public (offering it for members is considered public because the membership is also needed for insurance) it will get support from the Government.

In Germany sport for the public is considered to be good for everybody (health, mind etc) so the Government supports it.
And a ridingschool with lesson horses will get some support, which also helps them to survive. They are not working for profit but only for public usefulness.

And please there is a difference in Government support for sport for everybody and Government support for the National teams. They are totally separated. These Clubs are supposed to be for everybody. They do not aim for the Olympics…

Government supports horse sports in Germany - it does not do so in the US. As I noted above, Government supports BALL sports in the US. So in Germany (and much of northern Europe), kids are brought up riding, it is inexpensive, access is easy. In the US, it is expensive, access is non-existent. How many riding schools HERE can you think of with schoolmasters, or heck, even decent lesson horses? I live in a pretty horsey region, and you can find a few (FEW) places with lesson horses, but they are up-down, beginner horses. I can’t find a single place to go take a lesson on anything 2nd level or above. And the lessons are expensive. There is no government support.

Germany has a better system for dressage - NO DOUBT. But what is your point? I don’t think anyone disagrees, but it isn’t going to change here. Our society views equestrian sports as a hobby of the upper class. If you want to do something with government backing, go take up baseball…

[SendenHorse]

I think for Dressage (big D Dressage) having been in the US say, what 30? 50? years now, I think we HAVE DONE VERY VERY WELL, especially considering the late start we have had, the diversity of sports to complete with, and the vast distances. And the charming yet indivualistic attitude we sometimes have.

https://www.uset.org/home/americas-team/team-medal-history/

[Scribbler]

Remember that golf and tennis were elite sports in the year 1900. Then the municipalities built cheap public facilities.

I expect Germany decided to make riding accessible because I am sure it too was extremely elite there in 1900. More elite than where I grew up. Horses were considered low end rural and pushed out of the suburbs along with the last chickens. They were seen as somewhere between a skateboard and a cow in terms of public smelly nuisance and delinquency.

Also English riding at the lower levels is considered a girls sport here and girls sports don’t get funding.

There are men in horses in my region. They are in track racing and in rodeo. Both these circuits have big purses attached and are essentially business. I expect they prefer fewer regulations!

Kids riding English here start out in hunter jumper or eventing and dressage tends to be an adult specialty. It is such a tiny part of the picture that it would be hard to regulate all riding on a dressage model.

I do think it is unfortunate that horse sport has stayed so firmly in the private sector. It gets no recognition.

Even when Ian Miller won show jumping at the Beijing Olympics he wasn’t shown on Canadian broadcast tv. They did Equestrian in Hong Kong, not wanting to take the horses into mainland China, and presumably of didn’t dedicate a camera crew. Now he might have been shown on a specialty channel. But not the broadcast network wrap up.

I think if North American equestrian sport wants more subsidy and more oversight then we need to ask for it in real and specific ways. But I suspect that this will be difficult seeing it is so established as a small business for profit model right down to the lesson barns and boarding.

[Manni01]

@merrygoround

Methinks Manni01 initiated this thread in order to facilitate her personal back patting.

Chauvinism thrives.

It doesn’t really matter what topic I start it always ends like that because some people make whatever assumptions. I admit I should ignore them. Its very useless to even think about anwsers… But I am glad that at least some people were interested and also gave some very nice input…

[Manni01]

@x-halt-salute

The lawn care spammer ascribes German dressage success to their rider education only, and not German influence on the development of the sport. Manni must be right if the spammers are so convinced that they’re voicing their agreement in the place where they usually insert a bunch of nonsense text…

I agree with you… Maybe I should feel good that this topic cured a spammer to write something meaningful

[SendenHorse]

manni your two posts were not about the OP, so would you like to get your own thread on topic?

I personally asked you to expand on this rather simplistic article, in which you still have yet to respond.

[McGurk]

I would love to see an article that went into more detail about the German system, the badges vs. the Bereiter tracks, the levels of shows, etc. that was written by a horseperson rather than an outsider. That would make for interesting reading. Also, the writer didn’t do a good job of drawing the line between cause and effect. How did the German superstars: Jung, Beerbaum and Werth utilize the system on their path to success? Do they credit the system, or their parents, their financial backers, a specific gifted coach, access to a great pool of horses, or something else entirely?

The article is an appetizer, not a meal.

And while German riders are undoubtedly successful, the article really didn’t make the case for why. The chauvinism and self-aggrandizement of the thread title is interesting as well. I wonder how the thread would have played out if the thread title had been “Interesting article about riding in Germany” instead.

[Equibrit]

If you define success as happy horses, the Germans have failed miserably.

They don’t seem to be terribly successful at this either.

[Scribbler]

Interestingly I know of several Germans who trained up through the system and then moved to Canada as young adults. One ended up in cowboy country and never really found a client base. Another was a prominent local coach for quite some time, very sardonic about teaching rich housewives, then actually committed suicide, which was terrible.

Nothing in Western Canada or probably North America came up to snuff, compared to the Germany of their youth.

[GPjumper]

@mvp

Jesus H. Christ, you and the other 19 pischers who never miss an opportunity to take Manni down for posting anything with a whiff of praise for German riding.

Look, there are things they do better that we do in the US and producing reliable, educated, regulated horse training and breeding is one of those. How can you deny that? Don’t shoot the messenger. It doesn’t change the truth and it makes you look small.

Also, Germany produced a model of university education that was intended to turn out good citizens (as opposed to more clergy). I think that was successful, too.

I am well aware of how Germany has produced top riders and horses. This article seems to be a lot of fluff. I also know of different methods that also work well. Germany has a system and has bred horses that fit into that system. This is not the first time that the OP has posted on this topic. There are those of us who prefer to follow the more French training scale as that is what suits the horses we tend I ride. There is no one way to skin a cat when it comes to horses that vary so much in the country. Our breeding programs are mostly geared towards AQHA and racing so the “lesser” horses here are going to be of those breeds who have prior training oppostite than the German way. It also means that many are hot and can’t fit in the German shoe box training scale. Is that training scale good to hav in your back pocket, absolutely. Is it the be all and end all of horse training? Nope.

[SendenHorse]

@McGurk

I would love to see an article that went into more detail about the German system, the badges vs. the Bereiter tracks, the levels of shows, etc. that was written by a horseperson rather than an outsider. That would make for interesting reading. Also, the writer didn’t do a good job of drawing the line between cause and effect. How did the German superstars: Jung, Beerbaum and Werth utilize the system on their path to success? Do they credit the system, or their parents, their financial backers, a specific gifted coach, access to a great pool of horses, or something else entirely?

The article is an appetizer, not a meal.

And while German riders are undoubtedly successful, the article really didn’t make the case for why. The chauvinism and self-aggrandizement of the thread title is interesting as well. I wonder how the thread would have played out if the thread title had been “Interesting article about riding in Germany” instead.

I agree completely.

Gemany is absolutely filled with the same sort of $$$ horses and riders at the top. That doesn’t change. It’s never going to be a level playing field.

[SendenHorse]

During the last years, Balkenhol has witnessed what he calls newer and more modern riding; where we see horses ridden with more pressure, often with the nose behind the vertical plane, and where spectacular movements have characterized parts of the dressage. The cultivation of these spectacular movements has been criticized the world over, as these movements can be at the expense of the horses’ anatomy and natural patterns of movement. By spectacular movements is meant unnaturally high knee lifts and exaggerated stretching of the foreleg during the extended trot, resulting in little engagement of the horse´s ´back and hind legs. Balkenol argues that the cultivation of such movements can in their ultimate consequence compromise classic principles. Therefore, he works purposefully and hard at cultivating riders that can demonstrate classic riding where harmony and balance are given first priority, and where the horses demonstrate good posture, flexibility, and swing in the back.

Balkenhol attributes the lack of patience as being complicit in the cultivation of newer forms of training, where the purpose is to achieve a good result faster during competitions than what is deemed to be ideal with regard to the horses education and health.

http://www.equilifeworld.com/potraits/klaus-balkenhol-pioneer-classic-dressage/

[BatCoach]

thanks @strangewings that was really enlightening for me. I must admit having access to an actual riding school as a child would have been amazing! Unfortunately, like most horse crazy kids, riding was too expensive and too far of a drive for my parents, so I started riding much later when I could drive my sister’s car to lessons, and even then it was only weekly.

[smoofox]

@Scribbler

Even when Ian Miller won show jumping at the Beijing Olympics he wasn’t shown on Canadian broadcast tv. They did Equestrian in Hong Kong, not wanting to take the horses into mainland China, and presumably of didn’t dedicate a camera crew. Now he might have been shown on a specialty channel. But not the broadcast network wrap up.

?? I think my friend watched it LIVE on CBC in the middle of the night - she called to tell me what happened and woke me up.

CBC shows more equestrian coverage than any media in North America. Although it was Eric Lamaze and Hickstead who won the individual gold medal in Beijing… and Canada (including Ian Millar) took the Team silver. CBC has always been good with equestrian coverage and covers every big Spruce Meadows event as well.

[Scribbler]

@smoofox

?? I think my friend watched it LIVE on CBC in the middle of the night - she called to tell me what happened and woke me up.

CBC shows more equestrian coverage than any media in North America. Although it was Eric Lamaze and Hickstead who won the individual gold medal in Beijing… and Canada (including Ian Millar) took the Team silver. CBC has always been good with equestrian coverage and covers every big Spruce Meadows event as well.

Ok my error! But it might have been on the CBC sports channel, which is specialty cable.

[BigMama1]

@Scribbler

Interestingly I know of several Germans who trained up through the system and then moved to Canada as young adults. One ended up in cowboy country and never really found a client base. Another was a prominent local coach for quite some time, very sardonic about teaching rich housewives, then actually committed suicide, which was terrible.

Nothing in Western Canada or probably North America came up to snuff, compared to the Germany of their youth.

But yet they never seem to move back to Germany, much as these kind of coaches love to belittle and condescend to their North American students and colleagues. Why do you suppose that is?

[SendenHorse]

Hoping to supply this thread with some usefulness, here are the Qualtifications (not listing horse tests, just riders)
[h=2]Trainer Qualifications & Competition Tests[/h]
The trainers at German Horse Center are well-trained and qualified riders. Horses for sale often already have competition experience and gained success with their riders.

The tables below give you an overview of what the trainer’s qualifications and the competition tests mean.

[h=2]Trainer Qualifications[SUP]1[/SUP][/h]
The professional training provided by the Deutsche Reiterliche Vereinigung (FN)

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Pferdewirt[/TD]
[TD]A 3 year training focusing on riding or breeding & stable management. Holders of the Pferdewirt: “Riding” can break in and train young horses, exercise and work older horses and present them in competitions. They are also qualified trainers for novices and more advanced riders.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pferdewirtschafts- meister[/TD]
[TD]The highest level of training in Germany. Holders of the Pferdewirtschaftsmeister can run a riding business, train others for the Pferdewirt qualification, ride in dressage and show jumping competitions to at least Level M and train horses and riders to at least Level M.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Additional Qualifications

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Diplomtrainer-Reiten[/TD]
[TD]Selected holders of the Pferdewirtschaftsmeister: “Riding” can take a further course towards the “Diplomtrainer” qualification with the Deutsche Reiterliche Vereinigung (FN) and the Trainer Academy of the Deutsche Olympia Sportbund. This combines equestrian sports with content that spans across sports types.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bewegungstrainer EM[/TD]
[TD]Eckhardt Meyners is an internationally recognized expert on kinematics in riding. His gymnastic exercises can improve and balance out weaknesses. Holders of the “Bewegungstrainer EM” are qualified to school riders in this type of gymnastics.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Awards

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Stensbeck-/Graf v. Lehndorff-Award[/TD]
[TD]Pferdewirt and Pferdewirtschaftsmeister holders who passed the examination with a particularly high grade receive this award. Stensbeck: Riding; Graf von Lehndorff: Breeding & Stable Management[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Goldenes Reitabzeichen[/TD]
[TD]Competitive riders are honored by the Deutsche Reiterliche Vereinigung (FN) with the Goldene Reitabzeichen when they achieve 10 victories in Advanced Class (S) tests in one discipline (Dressage, Show Jumping, Eventing).[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Reitmeister[/TD]
[TD]A very special title from the Deutsche Reiterliche Vereinigung (FN). This is awarded to individuals who have, for example, trained 50 or more horses to international Grand Prix successes or who have made a very special contribution to equestrian sports.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[SUP]1[/SUP]All descriptions are given as a guide only. The German Horse Center accepts no liability for content or completeness.

https://germanhorsecenter.com/qualification.html

[js]

@SendenHorse

… [/B]Horses for sale often already have competition experience and gained success with their riders.

Do you know how the prices of those horses compare to what they would cost here for a similarly experienced horse? Just curious if it is cheaper (relatively speaking) for riders there to buy a horse with some training/experience than it is in the US.

[SendenHorse]

@js

Do you know how the prices of those horses compare to what they would cost here for a similarly experienced horse? Just curious if it is cheaper (relatively speaking) for riders there to buy a horse with some training/experience than it is in the US.

No, that wasn’t really my focus sorry.

[js]

@SendenHorse

No, that wasn’t really my focus sorry.

I know it wasn’t the focus of your information, I was just curious if you knew. Thanks though