Why are the German so successful

[mvp]

@McGurk

I would love to see an article that went into more detail about the German system, the badges vs. the Bereiter tracks, the levels of shows, etc. that was written by a horseperson rather than an outsider. That would make for interesting reading. Also, the writer didn’t do a good job of drawing the line between cause and effect. How did the German superstars: Jung, Beerbaum and Werth utilize the system on their path to success? Do they credit the system, or their parents, their financial backers, a specific gifted coach, access to a great pool of horses, or something else entirely?

The article is an appetizer, not a meal.

And while German riders are undoubtedly successful, the article really didn’t make the case for why. The chauvinism and self-aggrandizement of the thread title is interesting as well. I wonder how the thread would have played out if the thread title had been “Interesting article about riding in Germany” instead.

The first part-- criticism of the article is spot-on and fair. The second question, too, about whether it still takes something like the exceptional wealth required of American riders as an additional, necessary ingredient for great success in Germany that it does in the US.

But! If Germany really does do somethings better-- let’s say that those things are limited to better and cheaper riding lessons for the average person, and a regulated industry (how many threads here (Nick Peronace pile-ons) stem from sheer [crap]iness of the utterly unregulated state of horse training here?)-- why get mad at Manni (or anyone else) for pointing that out? It’s true whether someone you personally like or dislike brings that fact to you.

[mvp]

@GPjumper

I am well aware of how Germany has produced top riders and horses. This article seems to be a lot of fluff. I also know of different methods that also work well. Germany has a system and has bred horses that fit into that system. This is not the first time that the OP has posted on this topic. There are those of us who prefer to follow the more French training scale as that is what suits the horses we tend I ride. There is no one way to skin a cat when it comes to horses that vary so much in the country. Our breeding programs are mostly geared towards AQHA and racing so the “lesser” horses here are going to be of those breeds who have prior training oppostite than the German way. It also means that many are hot and can’t fit in the German shoe box training scale. Is that training scale good to hav in your back pocket, absolutely. Is it the be all and end all of horse training? Nope.

I think that is right: Germany produces a (really systematic, well-articulated) style of training that has a type of horse in mind. And they produced that via scrupulous and sustained selective-breeding efforts. Hats off to them! That is a very big, long and expensive project. And it won’t suit all kinds of horses. I am quite sure my little Arabian/WB would have become a curled-up mess had she been ridden in a way that would work for an old-style WB.

Your point about the differences between the systems that work for lighter horses or even the special case of the AQHA horse is well-taken. For example, the time spent disengaging the hind end of a young horse in-hand done by some of the Western-based horsemen would, I think, cripple the tall, lanky WB of the same age.

And so any smart horseman does tailor his training to his horse. But, again, sitting around in a country (or a part of the country) where quality in horseflesh and horse training is hard to get and to assess because we let everything be regulated by the allmighty dollar and nothing more, I can appreciate what Germany has accomplished.

[Willy_Von_Whompers]

I also don’t think you can discount the value of being immersed in a system and being surrounded by people who are also immersed in the same system. All your peers and all the people a level up from you are working on the same correct basics. There’s no need to rush off and find the “flavour of the month” in a clinician. You know there is no magic bullet, just consistent correct work. One of the things I most enjoyed about working with one of my German trainers, was he had so much confidence in his system and background. Even if he didn’t have a brilliant ride himself that day on whatever horse he was working…or he was teaching me and whatever it was didn’t work that day. No matter. He knew what he knew and if I/we persevered with the training the results would happen maybe not today, but in the future.

I think that kind of steady assurance is very beneficial to horse and rider.

One of the things I miss having my own place and working on my own mainly, is the chance to sit and watch a bunch of people at my level or better working on similar stuff to me, and just getting on with it. No drama no wringing of hands, just plugging away at the training pyramid. It just gives you some perspective on your own training. And gives you the confidence that quietly working thru issues is the way to go. No magic gadget or magic words from some expensive clinician is the key to it. it comes down to the rider training the horse - and the rider being confident in the training journey.

[McGurk]

mvp,

why get mad at Manni (or anyone else) for pointing that out? It’s true whether someone you personally like or dislike brings that fact to you.

I am not “mad at Manni (or anyone else)” for posting a not particularly on point article. It is a fact that Germany dominates world dressage, and it is also a fact that Germany has a well established, well supported system in place to bring along riders and trainers, as well as admirable certifications and standards. That article just didn’t do a good job of supporting that claim.

If I’m “mad”, which I don’t believe I am, it’s the self-aggrandizement of posting it with that title, which is why I pointed that out.

It’s the difference between my peers talking among themselves at a conference and commenting that I had the best presentation on the agenda and my standing in the middle of the room and announcing that I had the best presentation. The opinions of relative worth are the same, and may evem be factually true. However, one is perceived as admiration and praise and the other is perceived as unbearable arrogance and smugness, depending on the speaker.

I have no trouble admiring the German system and would genuinely like to know more about it for a substantive, unbiased source.

I am, also, however, a little tired of having it used as a metaphorical club with which to beat people over the head.

[mvp]

So, if I read you right, McGurk, the problems are:

1. is that the fluffy article and doesn’t include all of the logical, well-documented steps that put a riding training system and Olympic success into a tight, causal chain? Correlation is all the writer establishes and that’s not good enough.

2. Manni posting this is a bid to make Germany, rather than American riding, Great Again?

I’m asking because I genuinely don’t get what the hubbub is about. I guess others have a chip on their shoulder about things Manni posts and I just.don’t…

[SendenHorse]

@mvp

So, if I read you right, McGurk, the problems are:

1. is that the fluffy article and doesn’t include all of the logical, well-documented steps that put a riding training system and Olympic success into a tight, causal chain? Correlation is all the writer establishes and that’s not good enough.

2. Manni posting this is a bid to make Germany, rather than American riding, Great Again?

I’m asking because I genuinely don’t get what the hubbub is about. I guess others have a chip on their shoulder about things Manni posts and I just.don’t…

No, the problem is in every thread, it has nothing to do with subject discussed.

[McGurk]

mvp, no, please don’t put words in my mouth.

If I were going to post about a riding system with which I am familiar and for which I advocate, I would want to use the best source material I could. There’s probably very good material out there about the German system, if you’re going to go to the trouble of posting, why not find a good resource? Why trash post? Doesn’t really serve the mission of advocating for your system.

I’m not even sure how to respond to your second point. I’m not arguing that Germany dominates in dressage, and that America has multiple obstacles to competing on the world stage, one of which is lack of a coherent system.

I am gently pointing out that Manni’s chauvinistic bias is not the best recommendation. To return to the earlier metaphor, just as my tooting my own horn at a conference is not the best recommendation for my presentation.

[Willy_Von_Whompers]

All I know is I’d rather be the worst rider in a German stable than I would be the best rider in a Canadian stable!

Wouldn’t mind being an OK rider in Ed Gal’s stable either!

[Gestalt]

I’d rather be in the British system. Even the German riders I admire can’t compete with the British imho.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch-QZ49WRTc

[SendenHorse]

@Gestalt

I’d rather be in the British system. Even the German riders I admire can’t compete with the British imho.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch-QZ49WRTc

I agree, but then again, the german system over-applied almost ruined my very nice talented horse. I’m glad I was able to be an independent minded American, ya all, and know when to look else-wear.

[SendenHorse]

@Willy Von Whompers

All I know is I’d rather be the worst rider in a German stable than I would be the best rider in a Canadian stable!

Wouldn’t mind being an OK rider in Ed Gal’s stable either!

Ewwwww… RK city. No thanks.

[Willy_Von_Whompers]

MMMMM Ed Gal’s consummate skill and timing…Yes please.

[Scribbler]

@BigMama1

But yet they never seem to move back to Germany, much as these kind of coaches love to belittle and condescend to their North American students and colleagues. Why do you suppose that is?

Hmmmm. The one I know well enough to ask said they weren’t considered forceful enough at 18 to continue in the German methodology at a high level so they came out to Canada to train Arabians which was a good match for awhile. Apparently you couldn’t continue on in the German system if you were flunked out at a given level. Kind of like university here. That is the draw back of having a system. I have no idea what level of creditation they stalled out at, fairly high up I think. Good tactful rider and trainer too.

[Scribbler]

@Willy Von Whompers

All I know is I’d rather be the worst rider in a German stable than I would be the best rider in a Canadian stable!

Wouldn’t mind being an OK rider in Ed Gal’s stable either!

Ah but wouldn’t you rather be on a Canadian hockey team than a German one? It’s just the question of where a given culture puts its resources and support.

[Scribbler]

@SendenHorse

Hoping to supply this thread with some usefulness, here are the Qualtifications (not listing horse tests, just riders)
[h=2]Trainer Qualifications & Competition Tests[/h]
The trainers at German Horse Center are well-trained and qualified riders. Horses for sale often already have competition experience and gained success with their riders.

The tables below give you an overview of what the trainer’s qualifications and the competition tests mean.

[h=2]Trainer Qualifications[SUP]1[/SUP][/h]
The professional training provided by the Deutsche Reiterliche Vereinigung (FN)

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Pferdewirt[/TD]
[TD]A 3 year training focusing on riding or breeding & stable management. Holders of the Pferdewirt: “Riding” can break in and train young horses, exercise and work older horses and present them in competitions. They are also qualified trainers for novices and more advanced riders.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pferdewirtschafts- meister[/TD]
[TD]The highest level of training in Germany. Holders of the Pferdewirtschaftsmeister can run a riding business, train others for the Pferdewirt qualification, ride in dressage and show jumping competitions to at least Level M and train horses and riders to at least Level M.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Additional Qualifications

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Diplomtrainer-Reiten[/TD]
[TD]Selected holders of the Pferdewirtschaftsmeister: “Riding” can take a further course towards the “Diplomtrainer” qualification with the Deutsche Reiterliche Vereinigung (FN) and the Trainer Academy of the Deutsche Olympia Sportbund. This combines equestrian sports with content that spans across sports types.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bewegungstrainer EM[/TD]
[TD]Eckhardt Meyners is an internationally recognized expert on kinematics in riding. His gymnastic exercises can improve and balance out weaknesses. Holders of the “Bewegungstrainer EM” are qualified to school riders in this type of gymnastics.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Awards

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Stensbeck-/Graf v. Lehndorff-Award[/TD]
[TD]Pferdewirt and Pferdewirtschaftsmeister holders who passed the examination with a particularly high grade receive this award. Stensbeck: Riding; Graf von Lehndorff: Breeding & Stable Management[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Goldenes Reitabzeichen[/TD]
[TD]Competitive riders are honored by the Deutsche Reiterliche Vereinigung (FN) with the Goldene Reitabzeichen when they achieve 10 victories in Advanced Class (S) tests in one discipline (Dressage, Show Jumping, Eventing).[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Reitmeister[/TD]
[TD]A very special title from the Deutsche Reiterliche Vereinigung (FN). This is awarded to individuals who have, for example, trained 50 or more horses to international Grand Prix successes or who have made a very special contribution to equestrian sports.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[SUP]1[/SUP]All descriptions are given as a guide only. The German Horse Center accepts no liability for content or completeness.

https://germanhorsecenter.com/qualification.html

Am I to read this as, you can’t run a horse business without the requisite qualification? That would be a hard sell in North America!

[Manni01]

@BigMama1

But yet they never seem to move back to Germany, much as these kind of coaches love to belittle and condescend to their North American students and colleagues. Why do you suppose that is?

I guess they can make a lot more money in North America… I guess thats why they don’t need to go back…

[Willy_Von_Whompers]

Big fish small pond. That’s why they stay in NA. And people here mostly don’t know what they don’t know, so anyone with the right accent and some nice boots can charge good money for lessons. Just say jahwohl, so ist schon, gut so…and cock your head sideways while you are looking disdainfully at the horse and rider.,…and pocket the $.

[Scribbler]

@Willy Von Whompers

Big fish small pond. That’s why they stay in NA. And people here mostly don’t know what they don’t know, so anyone with the right accent and some nice boots can charge good money for lessons. Just say jahwohl, so ist schon, gut so…and cock your head sideways while you are looking disdainfully at the horse and rider.,…and pocket the $.

But I think the German expat trainers who I’m aware of were sincere enough that loosey goosey Canada really upset them. They left Germany for whatever life circumstance, probably couldn’t go back after a certain point, but didn’t really like what they found here.

Folks with British accents also tell me they get instant status in Canada in almost any field. This includes folks with the kind of working class or regional accents that put them out of the running for a lot of things in England 30 or 40 years ago. They tended to be amused but all in all rather happy about that since it really expanded their opportunities.

I feel more like the German expat equestrians felt they were in permanent exile. I don’t honestly know if they were making more money than they would have in Germany, which is a moot point if they didn’t quite make the grade in Germany. But I feel like even a good enough income might not have compensated for a lifetime with barbarians and housewives.

[Manni01]

@Willy Von Whompers

Big fish small pond. That’s why they stay in NA. And people here mostly don’t know what they don’t know, so anyone with the right accent and some nice boots can charge good money for lessons. Just say jahwohl, so ist schon, gut so…and cock your head sideways while you are looking disdainfully at the horse and rider.,…and pocket the $.

I agree, but I did not want to be that harsh. But still I am sure the money aspect is interesting as well… To charge that much for a lesson as you can over here you need to be on the National Team in Germany

[Equibrit]

@mvp

I’m asking because I genuinely don’t get what the hubbub is about.

Can you say hubris ?