Why do Dressage trainers have no schoolmasters/lesson horses and H/J's do?

[Lunabear1988]

It might be regional but in Colorado and other states out west don’t seem to have lesson horses. I think the big factor is land and board being very costly. I understand that. But the hunter jumpers and Western trainers do. I wonder why?

Is it the clientele? Because as being horseless after putting my young house down, it’s a struggle.

I’m riding friends horses and did find trainers with at least one horse. But it’s unbelievable that you can contact tons and none will have any lesson horses but one or two trainers. And every h/j trainer I know has 4 or 5 of them. Just curious why that is?

[Belowthesalt]

Ya got me. Here I am in California, a dressage hotbed, with a permanently lame horse (walk only riding). The only trainers with schoolmasters are each up to two hours away from where I am (and I am NOT out in the boonies), overbooked, and expensive. I shrugged and said, okay, back to jumping - because as you say - THEY have the school horses dressage trainers apparently don’t have. (One poor gal did say to me, “well, I had a nice GP schoolmaster, but he died…”) And frankly, one trainer who said they had schoolmasters definitely had the vibe of “come take a few lessons and I will pressure you to buy one of my very nice $$$$$$ horses.” Nope. I’m stuck with my otherwise healthy 14 year old and cannot support two horses.

[dotneko]

Id guess that it is because it takes a lot of money to develop a dressage schoolmaster. The ROI on a lesson horse is tiny compared to the big payoff in selling.
The trainers that do have schoolies are often their retired competition horses or the ones who wont pass a vet check. Just my opinion. The still showable ones are passed to clients as move up horses for lease.

[mvp]

@dotneko

Id guess that it is because it takes a lot of money to develop a dressage schoolmaster. The ROI on a lesson horse is tiny compared to the big payoff in selling.
The trainers that do have schoolies are often their retired competition horses or the ones who wont pass a vet check. Just my opinion. The still showable ones are passed to clients as move up horses for lease.

There ya go.

I think you can create a useful lesson horse for less money in Hunter world and one for even less than that in Western world.

I also think that even a lower-level school horse in dressage has to perform better (be soft in the bridle, ahead of your leg (somewhat) and willing to give you his back while you don’t ride well) to a greater degree than does an equally adequate schoolie in hunter world. I think in Western world, those horses might be already taught to tolerate a great deal and go no matter what. And there are a whole lot more horses who are really broke but maybe not show-ring quality or sound anymore available in western world. All this is to say that it’s a harder job to make and maintain a dressage lesson horse than any other kind. And so that makes them very expensive and their owners protective of them.

At least, this would be my guess.

[netg]

I agree with the above reasons, though my trainer has two of his own plus a part training/lesson horse who gets a discount for use. He also will use his clients’ horses on a case-by-case basis if necessary and with our permission.

[emipou]

I think it might be age and upkeep? I dunno. They get to a certain age and it gets harder to keep them going, but it takes so long to get there with their training?

I have have three trainers as a re-rider and two of the three have schoolmasters. Located in Southern California.

[Belowthesalt]

I agree that a lot more goes into producing what would be a dressage school horse and this is a large part of the problem, but DAY-UM, you’d think there’d be SOME, if only, say, horses that reached 3rd level and that was their limit. Personally, I’m not expecting a lesson horse that I’m going to do passage and piaffe on! LOL

Granted, one can probably find a lot of horses that can safely fling themselves over a 2’6" fence and that’s why there are more jumping schoolies. It is discouraging, though. But this is why I’m turning away from dressage and back to the H/J/Eventing world.

[WildLittleWren]

@mvp

There ya go.

I think you can create a useful lesson horse for less money in Hunter world and one for even less than that in Western world.

I also think that even a lower-level school horse in dressage has to perform better (be soft in the bridle, ahead of your leg (somewhat) and willing to give you his back while you don’t ride well) to a greater degree than does an equally adequate schoolie in hunter world. I think in Western world, those horses might be already taught to tolerate a great deal and go no matter what. And there are a whole lot more horses who are really broke but maybe not show-ring quality or sound anymore available in western world. All this is to say that it’s a harder job to make and maintain a dressage lesson horse than any other kind. And so that makes them very expensive and their owners protective of them.

At least, this would be my guess.

I think mvp nailed it. Also as stated above by another poster, the payoff is much bigger in selling a well trained dressage horse for the $$$ vs using it for lessons.

[trubandloki]

@WildLittleWren

the payoff is much bigger in selling a well trained dressage horse for the $$$ vs using it for lessons.

The payoff for selling a well trained hunter horse is pretty high too, so the well trained fancy hunter horses are not lesson horses either.

[Belowthesalt]

@trubandloki

The payoff for selling a well trained hunter horse is pretty high too, so the well trained fancy hunter horses are not lesson horses either.

Man, I am SOOOO frickin’ old. My first horse cost $650, and in those days, an A level Big Eq horse was around $6,500! We were all so impressed when a gal showed up at our public barn with a horse that she was going to ride in A level hunters, and that was what her parents had paid for him. SO EXPENSIVE, we all ooohed and aaahed.

[netg]

@trubandloki

The payoff for selling a well trained hunter horse is pretty high too, so the well trained fancy hunter horses are not lesson horses either.

No one said anything about fancy school horses - a well trained dressage horse who truly comes through and has changes and medium gaits is a bronze medal horse, even with very ordinary gaits. The equivalent hunter is safe but isn’t winning anything at big shows, and doesn’t have a score-based medal to win its rider.

Basically, we’re talking about the hack loser with too flat a jump to make up value with over fences style.

[Peggy]

The lesson horses in HJ land are generally used only for 2’6" and under, and generally under. Once you want to do more, you generally have to at least half lease something. That would be the equivalent of a Training-level dressage horse, maybe lower first level. So, wanting a second- or third-level dressage lesson horse might be roughly akin to wanting to jump over 3’ on a lesson horse.

Having said that, one of the HJ lesson horses at my barn is quite capable of going nicely on the bit and does all the lateral work very correctly. This assumes that the rider knows what they’re doing. Being a HJ horse, he also does lead changes, albeit not out of a collected canter. He could probably be used for a third-level dressage lesson.

Another factor is that there aren’t a lot of beginners signing up for dressage lessons, so the demand for a lower-level dressage lesson horse may not be sufficient for one to pay for itself.

But I do agree that finding a horse that goes agreeably on the bit might be harder than finding something that can go over poles and small cross-rails, especially given that lesson horses often have a little age on them, and thus some physical limitations that might make it harder to ride correctly, even at training level.

[merrygoround]

@dotneko

Id guess that it is because it takes a lot of money to develop a dressage schoolmaster. The ROI on a lesson horse is tiny compared to the big payoff in selling.
The trainers that do have schoolies are often their retired competition horses or the ones who wont pass a vet check. Just my opinion. The still showable ones are passed to clients as move up horses for lease.

Money and time to produce a good schoolmaster. As said they are usually retirees from a trainers personal string. So not too numerous.

[Lunabear1988]

Interesting! I came into Dressage through other disciplines which seems to be the norm. Although it’s not like many have a choice. At least most good hunter jumpers are teaching beginning Dressage.

I’m not a beginner, I am an intermediate so I have different needs. There is one or two dressage trainers that do have lesson horses but they are very low level trainers and I’ve been told (and from observations) that will not meet my needs.

I do know of multiple places in the Midwest that have accomplished, serious dressage trainers with multiple lesson horses of varying levels. My guess is because of land being much cheaper that is easier.

Luckily I can ride friend’s horse’s or the trainer’s private horses. But it just seems it’s so tough if you were a beginner or horseless.

[findeight]

@trubandloki

The payoff for selling a well trained hunter horse is pretty high too, so the well trained fancy hunter horses are not lesson horses either.

Very true. Think there’s an issue defining schoolmaster here. Hunter equivalent of a 3rd. level D horse isn’t renting by the hour for lessons

[Lunabear1988]

I don’t think “Schoolmasters” are totally necessary… But nice to have. Just having anything to ride through a lesson. Or something to take a lunge lesson to work on your seat ect… thankfully I have found ways to ride while being horseless but it really isn’t easy!

Is it the same way in other countries?

[mydogs]

I think schoolmasters become lesson horses mostly when the trainer is no longer showing the horse but doesn’t want to sell. I did the math with my horse, my monthly costs, and my trainer’s fee. He was used for lessons this past year because I did not have time to ride 6 days a week and it helped offset some of my costs.

She would have to give 14 lessons a month to break even on the cost. If each student took 1 lesson a week, that would be at least 3-4 students. If each student took 2 lessons a week, that would be at least 2-3 students.

My trainer would make more money giving 2 lessons/week on my horse than she would giving 4 lessons/week on her own lesson horse that she paid full board for.

At that rate, an owner/trainer will probably make more money by leasing the horse out to a student (which would also generate more income in their own lesson fee). Of course, these numbers are just what I personally pay and may be different is board cost less elsewhere.

[Can_tFindMyWhip]

I think there is a big difference in the nature of dressage compared to the nature of hunter/jumpers. I think that it is much more difficult to produce a true dressage school master than it is to find a horse that will gently cart people around a 2’ hunter or jumper course. Teaching a human how to refine and perfect contact in the bridle is hard on a horse, and I also think that each horse feels a certain way in the bridle, so every rider has to learn what is normal and correct for that horse. If you throw new rider after new rider up in the saddle over time you will get a sour horse. I think it is really difficult to find horses that like to teach dressage, but there are loads of Thoroughbreds who happily teach people to jump. Dressage riders also tend to not let anyone else but their trainers ride their horse, and nobody asks to ride a horse that isn’t theirs either. I’m not sure if its a respect for people’s hard work that they’ve put into developing their horse, or a fear of “messing him up” but it seems to be an unspoken rule. Whereas hunter/jumpers or eventers ask pretty frequently, “CAN I RIDE YOUR HORSE?” and get miffed when I say, “Yeah, no. Not today, not ever.”

[poltroon]

I actually think the answer is even simpler than this, and not so much about the cost of the horses but due to two other factors:

1. Group lessons are really rare in dressage barns
2. Dressage barns in the west tend to be trainers taking stalls in other people’s facilities, and stalls are expensive.

By contrast, western and hunter barns with lesson horses are often really longstanding old facilities, with a riding school, and with group turnout for the lesson horses. They may be even on the second generation, or have an owner who bought the place 30+ years ago, when land was cheaper. Dressage is a relative newcomer to the west, so there aren’t many trainers who have been teaching dressage here for 30+ years.

One of the ways you make money with a lesson string is to have a barn full of kids, possibly including summer camps. We haven’t found the mix that creates kids that want to take dressage lessons and dressage trainers who want to teach kids. In any case, a riding school is hard pressed to make money without at least 4 people in the ring on average; I grew up in lessons of 8.

(One reason dressage doesn’t do group lessons is that dressage arenas aren’t really big enough for more than two, three riders tops to really work in effectively, and usually a trainer is assigned one ring.)

Dressage lesson horses are usually retired horses from previous clients, and have been pampered all their lives, so they pretty much are used to being in stalls. Horses used for beginner lessons in jumping and western are often of types that are more amenable to being chucked out in a field as easy keepers. There’s no reason you couldn’t seek out such horses for a dressage lesson program if you wanted, but these days building a lesson program with school horses from scratch is pretty much prohibitive in any discipline. You don’t see young programs in western or hunters either IME.

I think this is a real chicken and egg problem for dressage, because it’s absolutely true we don’t have schoolmasters to teach our up and coming riders, and less and less do we have any programs at all for beginner riders to learn the basics of riding any horse.

I think there is potentially demand, even, for a training center that would allow adults to go ride high end schoolmasters with a national level trainer for a week or two at a time.

[SonnysMom]

@poltroon

I actually think the answer is even simpler than this, and not so much about the cost of the horses but due to two other factors:

1. Group lessons are really rare in dressage barns
2. Dressage barns in the west tend to be trainers taking stalls in other people’s facilities, and stalls are expensive.

By contrast, western and hunter barns with lesson horses are often really longstanding old facilities, with a riding school, and with group turnout for the lesson horses. They may be even on the second generation, or have an owner who bought the place 30+ years ago, when land was cheaper. Dressage is a relative newcomer to the west, so there aren’t many trainers who have been teaching dressage here for 30+ years.

One of the ways you make money with a lesson string is to have a barn full of kids, possibly including summer camps. We haven’t found the mix that creates kids that want to take dressage lessons and dressage trainers who want to teach kids. In any case, a riding school is hard pressed to make money without at least 4 people in the ring on average; I grew up in lessons of 8.

Dressage lesson horses are usually retired horses from previous clients, and have been pampered all their lives, so they pretty much are used to being in stalls. Horses used for beginner lessons in jumping and western are often of types that are more amenable to being chucked out in a field as easy keepers. There’s no reason you couldn’t seek out such horses for a dressage lesson program if you wanted, but these days building a lesson program with school horses from scratch is pretty much prohibitive in any discipline. You don’t see young programs in western or hunters either IME.

I think this is a real chicken and egg problem for dressage, because it’s absolutely true we don’t have schoolmasters to teach our up and coming riders, and less and less do we have any programs at all for beginner riders to learn the basics of riding any horse.

I think there is potentially demand, even, for a training center that would allow adults to go ride high end schoolmasters with a national level trainer for a week or two at a time.

^^^^^This.
I think it is harder for a dressage horse to earn their keep. A hunter horse/pony can do a few low level lessons a day especially if a few are w/t or w/t/c only. The hunter trainer has multiple people in a group lesson and it can be a mix of people on lesson horses and their own horses so the trainer likely makes more money in that hour lesson than the dressage instructor in the 45 minute slot. I think that is not as fair to ask a dressage horse to do multiple lessons in a day especially if any of them require any real collection.