Why horses crash into fences - horsenetwork article

This interesting article popped up in my Facebook feed tonight. Would be curious to hear everyone’s thoughts on this.

This quote in particular stood out to me:

A big problem with this obedience-focused approach, according to Davies, is the use of punishment and corrections when horses hesitate or refuse. She argues that we should reframe refusals as perception rather than disobedience: when a horse refuses to jump an obstacle he does so because he doesn’t believe that he can jump it safely. Punishing a horse for a refusal will create a strong behavioral conflict: the horse will be forced to choose between risking an unsafe jump or the physical discomfort of the correction. When the punishment is repeated every time the horse hesitates or refuses, over time the horse will be conditioned to jump whatever the rider points him at rather than trust his own judgement.

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I agree with that quote. I’ve always said I prefer riding horses that are smarter than I am. My late mare was amazing. If I totally f*ed up a distance that was unsafe she would stop with her head up and as long as I rode well in my re approach she’d continue on no problem. When out trail riding I’d let her gallop straight out and let her take the wheel. The handful of times I’d try to steer while galloping on trails with lots of turns and switch backs I’d nearly run us into a tree haha
I think when you have a smart horse that is well rounded, cross trains, plenty of turnout, riding on various surfaces they have better body and spatial awareness and quicker reactions than we do. I don’t think we should suppress or try to over ride a good horse’s instincts

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It totally depends on the kind of refusal.

The last minute SCREECH one because the rider effed up the distance? Don’t you dare punish that one. That’s the horse saving you. Edit: Or the rider came in too hot, or the rider picked too much and didn’t have enough canter, or the rider threw away the reins and the horse felt abandoned… rider error, period.

The last minute SCREECH one that’s unexplainable? Get the vet out. Don’t punish that one, either.

The one you could feel 5 strides out because the horse was a little nervous as to the appearance of the jump, and sucked back behind your leg and fizzled out, despite encouragement? Yeah, at a certain age/experience that will get a quick smack and then come again. They’ve got to stay in front of the leg, even when they’re a little scared. Obviously this doesn’t apply to ultra green horses.

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This works on the assumption that one can force a horse to jump by beating him. It may work once but not for long. I suspect that the “ too obedient” portion of fallers has more to do with the more submissive horses chosen to event and more time spent working dressage skills. Also the complexes that require horses to be micromanaged. There is no more - see that 20 foot wide thing over there? Let’s go jump it!

I do certainly agree once the horse has stopped, there is no up side to hitting him. Confidence must be cultivated and nurtured to optimize performance.

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Eh, one would think you can’t make the alternative so unpleasant they don’t feel they have a choice, but look at Andy Kocher and his electric spurs. He didn’t wear those because they didn’t work…

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I watched the video, the rider was trying to fix his tack and inadvertently put the horse on the line for the wall. I am hoping he learned something that day! I thought the horse just believed that the rider had never put him in a bad spot before so stayed on the line given and was so relaxed about it that I don’t think he’d ever been in a bad spot! The horse did his best poor guy, and I wonder if he never was the same after. I remember a new bank jump years ago, can’t remember where it was, but the very experienced rider Leslie Law maybe? set the horse who was obviously questioning the jump perfectly, and the horse lept up on that bank, and was then stuck with all four legs on top. The horse never came back to that level again. I don’t think this video shows a horse trained by fear. I have tried over the years to train the horses that I set the line, and they are in charge of their own feet. The risk is that sometimes one or the other of the centaur makes a mistake.
I also remember being at a dinner party with another upper level rider, and getting into the argument that I’d rather a horse on a line stop in a straight line, four legs in same direction if he got in wrong, than go at any cost. He disagreed.

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Put me down for agreeing with the quote too. I have a coming 7yo and my former barn owner always remarks to me that he doesn’t have a dirty stop or run-out because he’s never learned to have one. He does refuse on occasion, but it’s always because I failed in my responsibility to set him up for success and support him, and his response is “I can’t,” not “I won’t.” Every single time he gives me one of those refusals, I just pat him, bring him back around, and we try again, and without fail he goes as long as we’re straight enough, I keep my leg on, and I stay out of his way.

I grew up learning that I want the horses I ride to be able to sort out their own feet as long as I’m there to support and don’t let them get either behind the leg or too strung-out to adjust themselves, so we do a lot of adventuring to get exposure to as many things as possible and we keep things small enough that he can wobble and mis-judge striding and all of that to let him develop the agency to figure out what to do with his stork legs without it becoming dangerous (he’s short-coupled but his neck and legs are looooooooong so for a long time there he had the coordination levels of a newborn giraffe and still does on occasion).

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He had a broken rein and didn’t pull up. (if I recall correctly)

A self preserving horse would have looked at that and said “nope, no way”. It wasn’t even close to being accomplish-able. I’m thinking the horse had to have thought that was brush (which is a reason I don’t care for brush fences, but I’m sure that’s a whole 'nother can of worms) because he didn’t even make an effort for the top in bascule or anything.

Tell this to the Swiss guy who beat the pulp out of his top class winning showjumpers.

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I have to admit, I’ve always preferred having a horse that will say no when needed, even outside of jumping. A few years ago I was trying to hack out and my horse just refused to move, I thought I was going insane because I couldn’t see anything that would cause an issue. Turns out there was a bear about a hundred feet away in the tree line and I didn’t notice it initially!

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This not new knowledge or a new perspective, but I found the article oversimplified the reason horses crash. No horse wants to crash. They do so for many reasons outside of aversion to punishment: (mental/physical) fatigue and misreading the fence are, IMO, the biggest reasons.

It’s been said before by UL riders that they prefer a horse who refuses versus stops. Many riders do want independent thinking in their horse and recognize its the horse that jumps the fence, not them. The first implies the horse didn’t read the question, doesn’t think it’s safe, or doesn’t think they can - the latter usually comes from lack of confidence, presence of pain, or “dunwanna”.

The video of Raphael at Pau, his reins were broken and I think that the person writing this article either doesn’t understand eventing or maybe, doesn’t know much about eventing training. They mention the “large gap” as if it should be self-evident that a horse should go under or through it… but this isn’t how modern courses are made and its certainly not how modern horses are trained. The fences trend towards visually staggering and often are placed in areas where there appear to be “multiple” outs to a casual observer. The horses are trained to ignore these outs and focus on finding the next fence. Raphael did exactly that - the thing he focused on visually looked like a fence. I don’t think he ever thought it was anything else - and I agree, maybe in his confidence he thought it was brush or something that gives away. Either way, that is one honest horse. I think he must have thought that was a bank up, maybe with brush on it - and it does raise the question about setting up decorations on course that share similar construction or material to fences. And also brings up the question of fences trending towards decorations - the duplicity there might confuse horses.

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Do you mean refuses versus crashes?

Or am I not understanding the difference between a refusal and a stop?

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I agree with this.

Mostly I’m quoting because I thought this part needed more emphasis. This is a real thing. My horse has only said no once when there was no apparent reason for it (it wasn’t rider error - or at least not much rider error - and it wasn’t something she was afraid of). I got the vet out. Issue resolved. That was a game little mare too - she’d never said “no” for no reason in her life. Worth a second reminder that if you know the horse and you don’t know the reason, look for one, because it’s there somewhere.

I do also agree with this.

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I will say this one can get you a WICKED stop if the horse says I’m scared but you’re pushing them up. It turns into “I can! I… can! Wait. Yes I can! WAIT NO I CANT IM SO SORRY BYE”

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No, they are two different things. A refusal is usually the horse slowing, or going off to the side. A stop is the horse slamming on the brakes. A refusal is usually rider error muddling up the approach, a stop is usually the horse doesn’t want to or won’t (pain, lack of athleticism, etc). In one, the horse says “I can’t do that right now” and the other, the horse says “I won’t do that”.

It doesn’t help they are sometimes used interchangeably because the meaning is very similar, but the circumstances surrounding them are different enough a distinction is important enough that clinicians will talk about it.

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I’ve heard the “off to the side” as a run-out, never a refusal.

Are you saying the horse slows, and then doesn’t jump = also a refusal, same word as the “off to the side”?

I know the word stop is used in the context of “dirty stop”.

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I agree with endless that I have heard what you call “going off to the side” termed as a run-out, and a stop in front of the fence as a refusal. Most pros I have worked with prefer a stop, because that is the horse addressing the question but answering it with “I can’t”, as opposed to a run-out, which can at times be avoidance of the question.

Dirty stopping is a different issue (that I’ve been fortunate enough not to deal with since my school pony days), but the pros I have worked with do not punish for a non-dirty stop as most fall into categories 1) or 2) listed by endless (rider error or pain - either way if the horse stops in front of the jump it is usually because it literally can’t safely jump, as opposed to won’t).

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Stop = no forward momentum
Refusal = all the other ways the horse doesn’t jump something.

Horses on their own, such as loose jumping, don’t generally crash into jumps. Horses with humans involved do so relatively frequently. That makes me think that “why horses crash into fences” is the wrong question.

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A refusal can be a run-out.

It’s like the paradigm all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are square. All stops are refusals, but not all refusals are stops. Categorically speaking, it doesn’t matter to an organization’s eyes what prompted the refusal - if the horse did not go over the fence upon presentation, it is a penalized disobedience as “Refusal” or “Run out”.

I have heard the opposite from pros/clinicians, but it is entirely possible we’re in different circles with different pros that have different teaching strategies.

I agree I have not seen pros punish for non-“dirty” stops, which is where I think this article is confused; they lump all refusals as the same thing, when they are most certainly not. At the level they are discussing, there are very few dirty stops.

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Not in (US) Eventing.

A refusal is defined (EV122.2.a) as “a Horse is considered to have refused if it stops in front of the Obstacle to be jumped.”

A runout is defined (EV122.2.b) as “avoids the Obstacle or element to be jumped in such a way that it must be represented.”

Both are SCORED as disobediences.

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