If he’s fine on the flat and not jumping I go back to; pain or dislikes the rider.
Not saying this to be mean, but it’s the truth that some horses just will not tolerate if a rider feels unsafe or they don’t like the way they are being ridden.
Often jumping can bring out pain you wouldn’t feel on the flat, like in hocks or the shoulder, feet, etc.
I would be curious to see a flatwork video. Did I miss his age?
When you tried him, he was willing over fences, but seemed offended by your hands. Is it because there is a physical or training issue or does he need a better ride at the moment, idk.
I always appreciate your detailed observations and measured advice.
I recall you had made mention of that white hind during the pre-purchase. I had mentioned your comments to our vet after the PPE, and frankly she got annoyed with me ha (combination of getting her on a bad day and her being skeptical about who was giving me the advice–imo it shouldn’t really matter who made the observation if there was something there 
). During the PPE she had noted mild effusion in the right hind. The left hind (the white one) was a little thickened and stocked up. Nothing that she felt was a major red flag. She said he could have some arthritis but wouldn’t know for sure w/o further investigation.
In his earlier history his previous vet noted suspected synovitis in both front coffin joints, right worse than front, but nothing noted for his hind legs.
He didn’t have hind shoes when I bought him but we put them on shortly after and he’s continued to have them on. Our farrier also put pads on his fronts to help w/ the high/low heels.
Thanks for the suggestion about the angled poles. So those would be set up like on a curved line going into the jump?
I do usually carry a whip but need to be better about remembering to actually use it. At least I do try to keep it in my left hand as that’s the direction he typically runs out.
Will also consider the lyme test depending on what the vet finds during the exam.
Yeah I’m actually trying to find some video on the flat. I think there are some on my husband’s phone, just need to get them sorted and uploaded.
He’s 7 going on 8.
When you tried him, he was willing over fences, but seemed offended by your hands.
We did do a few jumps with me grabbing mane (not on video) and my trainer commented that he did better with that. I don’t know if his fussiness w/ the mouth is also partly b/c I’m really having to hold him back so he’s not rushing to the fences. Our trainer also thinks he’s partly putting his head up to get a better view from the bottom of his eyes. This behavior mostly happens when we’re going toward a jump but not necessarily always as seen in some of the Dec 3 video.
Is it because there is a physical or training issue or does he need a better ride at the moment, idk.
That is the million dollar question! At least I can hopefully get an answer to the third question by seeing the other rider on him. I had asked our trainer to get on him but he hasn’t had a chance. Then hopefully further rule things out after the vet looks at him.
How about using a neck strap? I jump so much better when I know I can stick a finger under a neck strap when I need to. All in my mind.
Was there x rays on PPE?
We didn’t do xrays because the owner’s vet shared his images from early 2021. They had back, all 4 feet and hocks.
I did also recently run a vitamin E test and it came back at 315. Within “normal” range but on the lower end.
I have this horse. He has to be ridden confidently and quietly otherwise he is a totally different animal. If I’m nervous or having a bad day, he’ll call me out EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. It’s taken a lot of time, professional training and a lot of therapy 
but we’re starting to get on super well. I wouldn’t change him for the world.
The mouth is the biggest concern for me, personally. He looks very offended. Does he grind his teeth at all? I would consider trying different bits and trying to sort some of that discomfort out. Out of curiousity, why are you using a curb? He was still busy in the Dee, but not quite as bad. I keep a loose ring in rotation, for him I might try a an eggbutt to offer some support as he seems so unconfident.
One thing I’d rule out is neck arthritis. It’s not easy to diagnose, but it can be a really painful and would explain some of the chiro’s finding. Also talk to you vet about incorporating a Vitamin E supplement. That might be were some of that toe dragging is coming from.
Be kind to yourself. A lot of us have been here. A lot of us will be here again. Keep working on your position and release. Be honest with yourself and your trainer. If you’re nervous, don’t jump. The first lesson video where he ducked out real bad, I’d be willing to bet you were looking at the fence and forgot to breathe as soon as your turned on your line. It’s not going to be perfect, but you’ll get through it.
ETA: It’s possible he was overfaced and this is lack of confidence that’s being exaggerated for several reasons.
A lot can change in 2 years, might be worth getting some new shots of the feet and hocks.
I’d also x ray the head unless you had a dentist do the teeth float. Could be a dead tooth or broken tooth causing pain that isn’t noticed by a regular vet float. More common than realized.
Thanks for the considerate reply.
I haven’t noticed him grinding and the vets didn’t note any evidence of it. He is a cribber, but a pretty mild one. When I mentioned that to the vet and the bodyworker, they both said they didn’t see much evidence of it where you typically would for cribbers.
To be more specific it’s a Kimberwicke bit which my trainer had given me for my previous horse who could sometimes also get strong. We started the first couple jump lessons in my D ring turtle top bit, but I needed more leverage when he would rush the jumps so I switched to this one. I’ve played with the rein position a few times–it’s currently on the lowest slot.
For the trial videos in the outdoor arena he was in a loose ring snaffle. On XC I’m now noticing/remembering he was in a different bridle that I think was an eggbutt. Both indoor videos are the same Kimberwicke.
I wouldn’t say I’m ever nervous in a fearful way in these lessons. The obstacles are so small I usually start out feeling confident that we can get over. If anything I probably have been taking it too much for granted and assuming he’s not going to balk when we’re just starting out over basically a speed bump. So when he does start stopping it’s more that I get flustered which he does probably read. I will say I don’t love doing those awkward jumps from a stop or when he speeds off after a jump but otherwise I’m not necessarily nervous to jump.
Are you in a position where you can easily get a second opinion from a different instructor, even if it’s only for a single lesson? Or where you can pay a professional to give the guy a ride?
I know that switching trainers might seem overwhelming, particularly when you are so early in your relationship with him. But some smart people on this thread (smarter than me) have pointed out issues with a few training choices that seem like large red flags to an outsider. A second opinion really might help, if it’s at all possible to get one.
Keep in mind a lot of times when horses are rushing fences it’s because they’re not confident and may have been over faced too soon. If you really introduce jumping slowly and methodically and build up over time they usually won’t rush. A lot of owners and trainers can mistake the rushing for excitement until the horse is too over faced and starts refusing.
Yeah that’s totally valid. He’s definitely not going faster in a nice “taking me to the jump” way that I’ve experienced on other horses. It’s rush in and rush out.
My husband also has a young TB who was started slowly over a couple months when he came off the track. They’ve been slowly and carefully working with our trainer, who also does training rides on him, over the past couple years and he’s turned out to be a nice confident jumper. Although he’s very athletic, he does not rush the jumps and has never had a run out.
Hind suspensory issues can also be real sneaky and impact willingness to work over fences. I had one leased out and it took several vets etc. to diagnose what was going on. He would try but during this time, it was one of the few times he stopped/ran out. But I sure do not want to suggest running up a vet bill on my anecdotal experience. Hopefully an experienced vet can identify valid issues without with running up too big of a bill!
(P.S. Have you tried to see how he is free jumping over small poles? Just curious.)
(oops edit, cant spell as usual!)
As Rodney used to say, if you can’t get your horse nice in the mouth, you can’t go to the jumps.
And, it starts from the hind end…back to front as opposed to shaping them front to back. I have The Three Masters video tapes w Rodney along w another video of his. Lucky you if you got to ride w him/hang. around!!!
He’s not forward. In the videos in each new environment he gets progressively more behind your leg and less and less forward. This will chip away at a horse’s confidence.
Moving to an indoor will naturally back a horse off, adding a curb? Even more so. So he’s not forward and you’re increasing the bit and riding him even less forward.
It looks to me like a very common cycle that creates a stopping problem: Rider doesn’t have the horse forward enough, horse compensates by rushing, rider reacts to the rushing by pulling and demanding the horse to be less forward usually with more hand which exacerbates the rushing and rushing progressively chips away at the horse’s confidence. Horse starts stopping.
Put him back in a simple snaffle. Kick him up and get him forward. If the horse rushes IGNORE IT. He rushes and you pull so he pulls and when he pulls you pull. Vicious cycle.
One of you has to be adult enough to the first one to stop pulling and it won’t be the horse.
This is where gymnastic will be your friend. The steps are measured and you can let go and let the distances set the stride. But you must go into the gymnastic forward with super quiet hands and you have to make a promise to him that you aren’t going to restrict him in the mouth, ever again.
You have to get him to trust you that you won’t get into his mouth.
ETA: I know this because of personal experience!! So no judgement here!
My horse has always loved our jumping adventures (we are dressage types the rest of the time 
) but one day he would not jump a cross rail. Very out of character. He was fine for all the upper level dressage work and trail. He was due for his vet dental check anyway so vet checked him over. I felt dumb for missing the slight swelling above his coronary band. Shot X-rays and injected front coffin joints. No problems since! So I vote have him checked out by your vet. Especially before it builds and becomes a bigger confidence issue…
OP, I say this kindly- I do not think this horse trusts your hands, or your decision making.
In the trial video, you are largely letting him sort things out while you point him around. He’s not finished, but he clearly knows what he’s doing. He seems happy enough to bop along with minimal input from you, relying on his experience.
In the December video, he starts out looking pretty nice, then starts to deteriorate. There are a couple of sketchy distances where he still jumps, but he starts to want to make his own decisions about pace and striding. You start to pull more and he very visibly objects. Then, he runs out. There is a clear pattern here where you are interfering with his way of going, and he is getting frustrated and losing confidence.
In the most recent video, he looks very stressed. I don’t think this is an appropriate time to use a lunge whip to direct him, or to force him over the X- horses just don’t learn in that state of mind. From your description of the lesson, it sounds like he became progressively overwhelmed to the point that he just checked out.
I don’t say this to sound accusatory, or to disparage your riding. You look lovely and balanced, but this horse may have been used to a more experienced or accurate rider, and it can be tough for them to adjust from someone taking care of them, to them needing to take care of the rider a bit. I’m not your trainer and I don’t know your riding well at all, so I’ll refrain from any commentary regarding your trainer or his process, but I would encourage you to consider the poster above who advised getting a second opinion, even if just for a single lesson. I love having fresh eyes whenever I’m dealing with a tricky issue!
Last of all, try not to get discouraged, or hung up on a timeline. I have a number of students who came to me with what they thought were irreparable jumping issues (including two who would not even walk over a pole in hand!) who are now jumping happily and confidently, and the process wasn’t traumatic at all. Yes, it involved going back to basics and putting competitive goals on hold, but now they’re sitting on confident horses, knowing that when they make the inevitable mistake (which most of us do!) they have laid a solid enough foundation that they can carry on after without worry. Life is so much easier when the horse is happy and motivated to work for us.
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