Why stall boarding rates need to at least double across the Midwest

[Gainer]

[QUOTE=LarkspurCO;8294595]
That may have been an average rate for a very expensive area or very upscale barn back then. I sounds high anyway.

In the early-mid 1980s (in the Midwest) I paid $3 a day for full care board at a quarter horse breeding farm. It included a stall with run and daily turnout in a nice pasture with grass and free-choice hay and a small indoor.

I also ran a boarding barn in the early 80s, closer to a large city, and charged $95/month for full care stall board and daily turnout. It was not a fancy place by any means and had no indoor, but there was access to miles of trails. Pasture board was $30 in summer and $50 in winter.[/QUOTE]

I have to agree…in the early 80s, I was paying $350 a month for training board in a very nice facility with an indoor.

[js]

For the BO’s who have boarders that help themselves to banamine, hay, shavings, fly spray etc.; why don’t you lock these things up? First, I would be concerned with leaving any prescription medicines out where anyone could have access to them for liability concerns among others. Secondly, I’m assuming hay is in a storage area as are shavings so why don’t you have doors with locks if you have issues with boarders helping themselves and it costing you money/profit? Could your barn help be trusted/dependable with knowing a combination lock to access these areas?

[kirbydog]

Can’t answer for others, but locking some things up would be very difficult. Our shavings are delivered by a semi, that backs into the shed area of our hay barn, and they come off a conveyor. The area is designed for convenience of delivery and access for our workers, as well as being deep enough to keep the bedding dry. There is no door on that area. The hay is in another area of that building. As we store about 3-7000 bales at any given time, locking up an closing off that area is not a good idea. Even the highest quality hay is combustible. If it were in a closed off area, it would heat up.
Fly spray, show sheen, etc are kept in the grooming stations, for convenience, and are clearly marked with the farm name on them. Re: meds, those are locked up in my office. However it doesn’t seem to stop people from borrowing, if i am not right there…on a horse, teaching, out to lunch, what ever. And truly, if it’s an emergency, it’s ok, but then they have to let me know. They will be billed for it. But they gotta let me know. Meds are not as big an issue though, as are hay and shavings. THose are the most expensive items we deal with, they are absolutely necessary,and they are the most wasted; we buy them in order to throw them out, basically.

[Chall]

One month full board in westchester(ny) = one month studio apt in Manhattan
One month field board in PA = one month parking in the cheapest garages in Manhattan

That seems to have held true for the 25 yrs I boarded.
Note that both are based on real estate prices, not hay, feed etc, even though the cost of hay/feed has gone up.

[BuddyRoo]

[QUOTE=Miss Motivation;8294161]

Edited to add: I would guess that a significant proportion of my current boarders- 1/3 or more- will not replace their current horses. Baby boomers aging out and costs of ownership are big, big issues. [/QUOTE]

^yep^ I’m down to one horse from three 10 years ago, and the reason I kept this one is because I’ve had her since she was born. She’s 24 now. She’s earned a cushy semi-retirement and it’s my responsibility to give it to her after all she’s done for me. But I doubt I will be owning a horse again after she goes. I’ll half lease. I just don’t want the responsibility and expense anymore. And the expenses/options can be pretty variable depending on where you’re located.

I have moved quite a bit over the years as well so have had the “joy” of trying to find boarding facilities in areas where I know no one, need a new vet, new farrier, if leasing land–a new hay supplier, etc. It’s a hassle. When I first started boarding about 12 years ago (prior, had horses at home), I was paying $150/mo for 3 in a small co op where hay was about $4/bale. Did chores, provided hay/grain, etc. But my total expenses with farrier for 3 were under 400/mo in N TX circa 2002. Next place 1k miles away was $250/mo per. So expenses went to $750 plus farrier circa 2003 in MI. A few years later, down to 2 horses, the new place just a few miles from the previous in MI was $365/mo so while down a horse, expenses went up. All of these involved stall + turnout. Paid about $400/mo for 24/7 turnout in NoVA from 2012-2015 and now back in MI about $350/mo for pasture only.

I’m pretty over it. Unless I have a place of my own where we can plan to stay put for awhile, I think I’m done with horse ownership. I’ve found great barns, I’ve found great vets, I’ve made great friends. But it’s stressful and expensive.

[Smiles]

So board at a show barn with 2 indoors and heat back in 1995 (suburbs of Chicago) was $350. Which was ala carte. If I wanted my horse turned out (small paddocks)/blankets change/groomed/lessons etc it would cost extra. When that barn closed in 2002 board was up to $450 everything else still ala carte. They leased this facility if it makes any difference. Of course one has to remember that gas/electric/minimum wage where much lower too. Now here in 2015 I board at a facility that has an indoor but no heat. Its a do it yourself place but I have my own trailer so I’m ok with that. My horses turn out is included and they get a 5 acre pasture all to themselves and I pay $350. This facility is much nicer then the show barn was. The owners have day jobs and use us boarders to pay for taxes and feed. They do everything themselves and its there labor of love. They could raise their board but they don’t. Since I’ve been there and its been 10 years, they raised the board once by $25.

[Casey09]

[QUOTE=js;8294639]
For the BO’s who have boarders that help themselves to banamine, hay, shavings, fly spray etc.; why don’t you lock these things up? First, I would be concerned with leaving any prescription medicines out where anyone could have access to them for liability concerns among others. Secondly, I’m assuming hay is in a storage area as are shavings so why don’t you have doors with locks if you have issues with boarders helping themselves and it costing you money/profit? Could your barn help be trusted/dependable with knowing a combination lock to access these areas?[/QUOTE]

In my own boarding experience, taking fly spray or Banamine from the barn is inconceivable to me. I don’t even know where the barn fly spray is. Banamine and other medications are kept in the barn staff area. There might be times when a boarder would have unsupervised access, but I think getting caught taking Banamine would probably result in being asked to leave. The barn knows whe I keep my own medications and they give my own medications to my horse when possible. If I were to run out the barn has Banamine, Bute, etc. but there is a charge added to the board bill for the medication. As far as hay and shavings, they’re accessible but it is well known that as a boarder you do not have unfettered access to them. I know of a couple of boarders that were kicked out over hay and shavings issues. If people throw an extra flake of hay, they let the barn know.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=bauhaus;8291728]

It’s called a shoestring budget and I don’t think it’s fair to judge people for making do on one, because without those folks the horse industry really would collapse I think. [/QUOTE]

This completely misses the point of the whole thread. The industry is collapsing because of the phenomenon you point out: For every one wealthy person who pays really well and wants the best for their horse, there are many more looking for the cheapest OK care they can get. The problem, of course, is that those barns offering inexpensive board with almost no profit margin are almost entirely unrelated to the top-end barns.

There is no profit sharing.
There is no “trickle down.”
There is no making money with volume sales where each horse brings in a smaller percentage profit…. but there are more of them.

It seems to me that this last option might be the one you were thinking of. But each little barn offering close-to-the-bone boarding is losing money and/or burning out it’s BO while the collective group of them would appear to be thriving…. only because there are so many.

I don’t think that thriving is happening. Rather, I think those barns stay open because there is some reason other than sheer-profitability that makes the BO do that. In my area, a lot of it has to do with the sunk costs into the asset of the farm. In other words, the farm is paid for. The people can’t sell it without making a big lifestyle change. Or maybe no one will pay them what they want for it/need to get out of it in order to retire and move away. So with that capital tied up in a farm, what do you do? You use it to make whatever money you can however you can. And so you continue boarding. You can do so for less/little because you haven’t had a mortgage on it. At the same time, maintaining this older farm is an expense. And really, the money tied up in the farm is just an investment vehicle. After all, if the asset were more liquid, you could ask yourself if the boarding operation was returning as much as the stock market would. So you don’t want to put a lot into maintaining it because that’s taking away from your return.

But you can’t easily sell the farm and convert that cash to stock. Or, alternately, you want to hang on for another decade or so because you think the land is going to shoot up in value when the recession is farther behind us and developers can afford to buy you out. So you just want your barn to pay for itself and not take too much out of your pocket while you hang onto it for that decade.

See how all of these scenarios could be important to a BO…. and none of them have to do with wanting to compete for boarders by offering a great product at a sustainable price?

And if your market has several places like this around, it influences the whole market……precisely because of the shoe-string budgeted HO. That’s true in my town because their aren’t a ton of well-paying jobs and we have a college that attracts undergrads who would just like to hang on to their horse, even if they have no time or money to do much more.

This is to say, the budget-driven HO combined with BOs who own their farms and run their boarding businesses for purposes other than making money via boarding (or even boarding and training) drag down the whole market. See, you can’t be the person who starts a new, nicer farm with any debt because you will be underpriced by so many other places. So no one starts newer/better because they can’t compete with the existing, paid-for places that could also afford to cut their margins to the bone to accommodate the folks who couldn’t afford more than really basic care.

I will say that I can’t tell who much “pent up demand” there is for better/higher priced boarding in my area. Are there lots of us like me: People who would/can pay for much better if it were available? I don’t know, but it’s a helluva risk to take if you are a would-be BO.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=skyon;8291888]
Not sure what it is like in all areas, but in the past 20 yrs I can think of large barns built with lots of PR , a boom and then after a couple of years the anchor trainer switches, how it will be run switches, the riding discipline switches, and a decade or so later everyone wonders what happened to that barn they drove by and is it vacant or something all together different.

Meanwhile the family owned barn keeps ticking past that somewhat simialar to what it was originally until the family changes or the land offer is too good to pass on. Something to be said for stability.[/QUOTE]

Apropos of my last post, I think this “stability” you praise has to do with the land/barn staying in the boarding business because of reasons other than the profitability of boarding. The place launched with fanfare and debt (and probably an kinda OK business plan) failed because the whole venture had to pass muster as a profit-generating enterprise. If a business doesn’t have to do that…. pay investors and keep them confident… the performance standards are a lot lower.

(For context, the comparison Skyon was considering here was the family farm owned outright and the new place with a $3M note.)

[airhorse]

@mvp;8294813

See, you can’t be the person who starts a new, nicer farm with any debt because you will be underpriced by so many other places. So no one starts newer/better because they can’t compete with the existing, paid-for places that could also afford to cut their margins to the bone to accommodate the folks who couldn’t afford more than really basic care.

And when those paid for places sell, or get turned into neighborhoods, the options are going to become expensive or nonexistent.

[skyon]

MVP, I happen to be online and then out of here so will answer with IMO and typos

IMO, Boom, Bust with large barns built for investors.

Sorry, no numbers to back up, or economic theory.

That is what seems to occur with the large barns built, that switch off on anchor trainers and disciplines. It is kind of obvious that they do not own them and there is some kind of enterprise behind it or a couple of investors behind it.

May not be true overall… Look around yourself at the majority. This has been going on since the 90s. I do think there are family farms that started out as such and have just evolved into bigger enterprises - same scenario, they last longer and they do it becasue it is what they know, and smaller operations do the same because of what they know.

I don’t for a new york second think that there are not people who can afford this and want this. Obviously right now when the market has climbed and not everyone was affected after 2008. The future must seem very bright.

However - thinking that board can be sustained at $2000 for decades on the same horse and that there is some kind gentlemans agreement that as the horse gets passed around that will just stay status quo - and then the horse will be retired to some owner, somewhere to the tune of $600-$1000 for light riding and retirment? Really?

And we are now going to attack on smaller barns because they affect the trickle down of large barns - Seriously?? LMAO.

They have no affect on that game - unless people play games and want to shut them out to feel smug about themselves and what they think they can afford in horse care, and want the real estate the others sit on. IMO.

Blaming your competitors -( really, again, at $500 stated as heated city barn? ?) is exactly is the OP really doing, ALONG with blaming her customers - because it sounds like they wanted a crack at bigger leagues, got bad advice, found access to running a barn, Sold horses to some of her cusotmers as was advised, and now it is her customers problem she needs to move up that ladder.

THe chips fall where they fall, and ultmatley I don’t give a damn, but the irony of people buying horses in europe, bred and trained for much less than US dollars and specialized care, and then upping the amount to 5 and 6 digits with status has always been a strange game to me.

It just comes back to my first question - where are all these horses supposed to go as they are traded off, because those retirment owners are not going to be affording that in the long term as are likely the majority of owners who ride in these circuits at these amount.

Edited to add - smaller barns do affect Big Show Barn trickle down in one way - they do love them when the hidden trust fund customer finds their way from the small barn somehwere into the big barn.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=LarkspurCO;8294595]
That may have been an average rate for a very expensive area or very upscale barn back then. I sounds high anyway.

In the early-mid 1980s (in the Midwest) I paid $3 a day for full care board at a quarter horse breeding farm. It included a stall with run and daily turnout in a nice pasture with grass and free-choice hay and a small indoor.

I also ran a boarding barn in the early 80s, closer to a large city, and charged $95/month for full care stall board and daily turnout. It was not a fancy place by any means and had no indoor, but there was access to miles of trails. Pasture board was $30 in summer and $50 in winter.[/QUOTE]

I’ll qualify the “area”. By and large the mid-Atlantic, in my case outside of Baltimore in horse country. Very expensive now but not then. No different than the Front Range back in the 70’s if you live in the Larkspur of Co between Boulder and Co Springs. I lived in Boulder and the foothills back in the 70’s When I looked out my cabin window in the foothills I could see the lights of Boulder but it was “black” from Boulder to Denver. Looking south the same.

The “average” barn was nice but certainly not what anyone would consider “upscale”. No indoors, indoors were very much the exception.

But even if you were to cut the day rate in half to $5 that still would be around $700 in today’s money.

I have travel around the country a lot over the years. When first checking out horse operations in the mid-west, southwest I was very surprised at what the average horse owner thought was “quality care” and or horsemanship. No disrespected intended but it was a LOT different than how I was taught and apprenticed under.

The last time I spent some time at some boarding barns around Longmont in the early 2000s it was not cheap, nor would I consider it “upscale”. Yes, there were paddocks but not with the kind of grass that I consider “good”. The fencing very utilitarian. For the same money in my area got a lot more. And a much higher skill level of those that ran it.

Again, no disrespect intended to the fine folks who owned these places. But IMO they should have spent more time in an apprenticeship under some top horseman. Names or no-names.

[bauhaus]

Where do you people who are attacking family owned boarding barns who can charge a smaller fee because they (wisely IMO) know it’s not realistic to try to live off their boarding income think the extra money you want your customers to pay you is going to come from? I’m genuinely curious. If the market won’t support it, the barn goes out of business. That’s not the customer’s fault.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=skyon;8294187]
I don’t know why anyone is shocked at this, especially near cities, but for the quote about $300 in 1975, again it depends on what you do with the animal and where you are located. You could find $10 a day in someother location and that person may have had access to a better pasture and care than the $300.

There are people posting here noting they still have better care at $330 TODAY depending on where they are located.

As for “dreamers” - I think maybe that should include anyone who pays their bills on time today that thinks they can do it for the long term. Including those who are paying past $2000. I would think the window of being able to own/lease a horse will be much shorter. If they are leased- then it can all go back to the source to handle in the long term.[/QUOTE]

Again, we are talking about people who are thinking and or are running a boarding operation with the intent of making a living. Their life’s work, not a side job, or subsidizing their “hobby farm”.

Basic fixed cost are pretty much the same anywhere in the country. I know what they are and there is no getting round it without seriously compromising basic care.

People have chimed in numerous times “i pay $300 for a great place”. Maybe they are maybe they aren’t pretty subjective.

But unless the people who own and run that type of boarding operation are able to “house” a LOT of horses and have VERY inexpensive land and tax costs. They are not making much of a living. But everybody has a different idea of what constitutes a “living” and what the meaning of “quality of life” is to them.

This whole thread IMO is not about getting rich by running a boarding business with or without “extras”. It is not about those who are lucky enough to have been born with a “silver spoon” and or have a nice job to subside the business when needed.

Its about the long term viability of making a living, a modest living. With the basic quality of life that the vast majority of mid-class working people expect and enjoy.

[skyon]

[QUOTE=gumtree;8294990]

Its about the long term viability of making a living, a modest living. With the basic quality of life that the vast majority of mid-class working people expect and enjoy.[/QUOTE]

This is where I would question the OP for more info, on all this evolved, what is really going on at the barn - were horses sold, are there amenities i.e. blaneting, boots, riding -how much is really being done and what goals really are, sorry I’m not in complete belief that this is just about running a boarding business alone.

It is pretty basic to understand that is not often done without some kind of other income .

Again - it is not adding up to blame the competiition demanding an increase everywhere - because they may may be making the modest living doing just that for a long time because they have the resources.

As for guidance for a true horseman - sorry, I find that subjective. A drinking game could be formed on the names I have seen tossed around as true horseman.

A true horseman can evolve from anyone who asks questions and knows how to utilize the basics of what is neccessary for horse care and can sustain it. Simiar to who may be this OPs competition. They may not be the bad guys that seems to be insinuated.

[Miss_Motivation]

On boarding- there are a lot of new threads here over time that say something like “I found a great little farm and I want to know about the boarding business.”

That’s the sharing that goes on on COTH. It’s darn important for newcomers to understand that their costs, and the amount potential boarders are used to paying, may be vastly different amounts.

Just as a lot of Mom and Pop stores (tack stores, for example!) are closing out to the big box or online operators… because running a brick and mortar store does not provide the same living to second or third generation operators, the same is true in many areas for a boarding stable.

And if you don’t understand what you’re getting in to, and really explore not what the costs for the last farm operator were, but what yours would be with a mortgage, then the whole enterprise may not be viable.

And even on family farms, if the senior owners who paid off the mortgage years ago want their kids or grandkids to run the farm… at some point, the older generation is going to need some money to retire, pay for senior housing, etc. And there comes a mortgage again.

Concensus seems to be that without an extraordinary event (family money or paid off property) underpinning a new boarding venture, it’s very challenging to support both the boarding business and the property aspect at today’s boarding prices, in most urban/suburban areas.

In my experience, this is true. Which indicates that as original owners sell their farms either for development or for future farm use, either capacity will be lost for boarding or prices will rise, and this will put more pressure on the business of recreational riding.

I always kept a few horses and thought I knew the boarding business… but I was very naive when I bought a larger facility. Just sharing what we know, not meaning to be doom and gloom.

[IPEsq]

Gumtree, Longmont is still about the same. I pay $800 for a “nice” place. And we have been having equipment issues and footing issues and fencing issues and staff issues, and I feel a bit lucky it’s not $1000, even though the horse keeping philosophy still sometimes makes my former east coast groom self wince. Having just done property shopping here, I wish my job situation would allow me to buy a hobby farm in Ocala. Hell, I could maybe even afford Virgina so long as I didn’t have to try to commute to DC. I could not get any land here at all. Couldn’t even get to the math of having some affordable hay from the change the climate is going to be more wet.

[FlyingChanges]

[QUOTE=Emilia;8282182]
This sounds quite complicated. I think, most people, especially busy working people, would rather deal with one larger number per month than having to look through a dissected bill like that. I know, I would.

Furthermore, IMO, you would be opening yourself to a lot of quarrel with your clients regarding the number of used shaving bags, hay bales, when the feeding/cleaning needs to be done, etc. (I know people, who casually stroll into the barn at 10 am in the morning to feed their stalled animals.)

Some may feel you are using too much and ask you to cut back. Would you oblige, if it meant compromising your standards?

Turning your barn into partial self-care and some version of a co-op might prove risky.

There are people here on COTH that say it worked for them. They must have encountered a suitable bunch of people. You might, too.[/QUOTE]

This is a great thread, and I am still reading through all the posts!

I have actually started offering what I call partial board. I am the only one in my area doing this, and so far it has been working great.

Basically it is full board, but you pay a discounted price. You keep your stall clean and help with 3 feedings a week. (I currently have 10 horses, and feeding is not a HUGE task). If someone cannot clean their stall, I will do it. After 3 times they will owe me 1 more feeding. I only offer this to 2 people currently. All others pay my full board price as they want all services provided for them.

Partial board helps me out as a barn owner, and it helps my boarders out if cost is an issue and they are willing and able to help out.

[DHCarrotfeeder]

My wife and I boarded for several years at several barns. Now we have our own farm with a few boarders.

I’ve considered the numbers in my head many times for ourselves and the other boarding barns. My observations:

• Boarding barns tend to operate in a mini-microeconomic climate. Yes, large boarding barns compete with small family-run boarding barns, provided they are providing roughly the same services. The number of clients who will make the funding to get a exact set of services and facilities is small.

• Most boarders (the rest) are flexible. If a barn is very affordable but supplies crap hay and junk grain, many boarders will supplement their own hay and grain. Or come in and clean buckets or stalls if the baseline service is not adequate. Criticize or empathize with this cause, but it’s widespread and enables low-cost barns to supply meager quality service for years and years.

• The horse industry has been, and will be for the foreseeable future, an avocational choice. The full-timers who do it for profit alone are a slim minority. Most are part-timers who have reasons other than profit to stay involved. Non-monetary factors are usually part of the virtual balance sheet that keeps barns in operation.

• There are plenty, if not most, in the horse industry with horrible business fundamentals. They don’t use numbers in an adequate way to understand the income and costs of their business. They don’t depreciate assets or amortize costs, and when they do it’s only because their tax accountant advises them to do so. Whether they realize it or not, these businesses take clients away from businesses that are maintaining robust business models and affects prices in that market. It may take years for these business mistakes to catch up with them, if ever. But the disruptive impact is quite real.

• Humans are highly irrational. It’s been proven repeatedly that the law of pure supply and demand is the exception, and not the norm when you look at the small scale. A boarder might leave a barn at high personal cost over a small scuffle, or avoid moving because of fear of conflict. Both the boarders and operators tend to make irrational choices, even when non-monetary values are considered.

• Competence of the operators should matter a great deal. However, I see boarding barn operators who can’t recognize a colic from anxiety. They don’t adjust feed and forage for a horses weight. Operators who do know and do care should be getting paid higher board. Boarders who understand horse care know that having your horse surrounded by knowledgeable and observant horse people is the best medical coverage of all.

• Costs vary widely. Barns that have old fencing, make crappy home-made repairs and maintenance, poor footing, cheap hay or weedy pastures (and use lots of grain to make up for it), land and machinery to grow their own hay, large pastures that provide cheap forage, and no mortgage have a substantially lower cost structure than those who start out fresh and pay current market prices for their land and high quality consumables. Some barn owners value their time more than others as well, and that has an impact or things.

• With all of the above factors considered, it’s not a surprise that bottom line comes out red for many barns if they try to make a profit from the start. The cost of land has gone up several times over in less than a lifetime. Considering it as a business case, the cost of entry is extremely high - and mostly driven by the cost of a property. In my area, things like the cost of a mortgage, land taxes, or fixed utilities do not fit into the total board price. Until the barns that were started when land was cheaper, were inherited, or are paid for in full exit the market, a correction is not happening.

That said, I believe this could all correct itself somewhat. The baby-boomer generation that own so many boarding barns (or bankroll them) is retiring and passing on. The families often sell the family farm because they can’t afford to buy it out or don’t want the commitment.

In 10 or 20 years the “paid off” low-cost boarding barn could become an oddity. Prices would go up, but if that prevents more kids from being exposed to horses and getting involved, would be a downward spiral. Or not, who knows.

My situation is such where boarders meant we could buy a larger property with more facilities (an indoor, a storage building, a second dwelling suitable for renting, new fencing) with more horses and owners to share the costs. Sharing an indoor with boarders was better than having no indoor at all. Having boarders around can mean a lot, when it comes to quickly recognizing a horse needing vet care or just helping with a favor (“Do you mind feeding grain this evening?” or “Can you check that water buckets aren’t empty?”) when something comes up. Some boarders are simply great people with good horses, and by running a boarding business this forms part (all?) of the owners’ social circle.

I’m not going to touch the subject of partial care board. That doubles the number of variables and irrational choices to be considered, but I think all of the above would apply similarly.

[DHCarrotfeeder]

[QUOTE=bauhaus;8294974]
Where do you people who are attacking family owned boarding barns who can charge a smaller fee because they (wisely IMO) know it’s not realistic to try to live off their boarding income think the extra money you want your customers to pay you is going to come from? I’m genuinely curious. If the market won’t support it, the barn goes out of business. That’s not the customer’s fault.[/QUOTE]

Anyone with business experience knows that you need to know your competition as much as your own balance sheet.

If you have competitors with advantages that you don’t have, you need to recognize that risk and include that in your plan. To simply add up numbers in Excel and argue that earns you the right to have a full barn of paying customers is completely unrealistic.