I am not expecting a professional wage by any means. I actually live a very, very poor life. I struggle financially constantly,and work endlessly. And then have huge repair and maintenance bills on top of that.
My outdoor boarders cost about $100 a month, and they pay $250. That’s 150% profit for a 30th of the work of stall boarders. Why is it acceptable to have 30x more work for 0% profit?
[QUOTE=CHT;8284280]
I think part of the problem OP is that you are expecting a professional income from what is basically an entry level position.
Stall cleaning and property maintenance is pretty much minimum wage. To make a professional level income, you need to offer professional services such as rehab, training or lessons.
Alternatively, if you don’t want to work for minimum wage, you hire someone who will, and then work a professional level job.
(I have been running my barn for 11 years)[/QUOTE]
Still, an entry-level/non-professional position should be worth let’s say $30,000/year (less than $15/hour assuming 40 hours per week). Enough to survive on but nothing flash.
So to be functioning like a proper full-time business, a boarding-only barn would need to generate enough income to cover $2500 of monthly wages for the owner’s time (which, less face it, is bound to be more than 40 hours/week!). If they have their own horse/s boarded, the board and feed etc would come out of that wage. Home mortgage, groceries, electricity for their living quarters etc also need to be paid for from that (just like any other job).
However, farm mortgage, taxes, insurance, electricity, water (if charged), farm vehicle purchase and maintenance, topping up arena footing, fence repairs/upgrades, barn repairs/upgrades, fertiliser/lime, petrol for harrowing/mowing/spreading, professional services (electrical work, accounting, laywer etc), shavings for stalls, paint, hay & feed (including delivery and stacking), sundries (replacement buckets, fly spray, brooms, shovels - it adds up!!)… and so on…
… need to be factored in to the cost of board.
And that’s just to maintain the facility at its current level. To be able to plan and complete upgrades, money on top of what covers the above items needs to be set aside to save for new jumps, earthworks, new fencing, trough installation, arena sub-base/base/footing, contractor time to install this, construction costs for new shelters/barns/indoor arenas or whatever.
So what is your time worth? If you are a full-time boarding barn owner doing physical labour in all kinds of weather for 50+ hours per week, I think you really have to weigh up how much you could make doing something else with that time vs what you are actually getting from your set-up or potential set up:
Some people who have commented seem to be running smaller boarding situations part-time (i.e. also working a normal job) for the fringe benefits, in which case it is not so critical that there is a wage-level profit, provided you value the fringe benefits highly enough (off-set of own horses costs etc).
Finally, I agree with those who say boarding should pay for itself. User pays.
[QUOTE=bauhaus;8284243]
This isn’t because the customers are meanies, this is because they would be competing for a very limited number of customers who can afford to subsidise a mortgage for the barn owner, above minimum wage labor, and investment into the property. Those customers don’t have that much disposable income by accident, and most of them would realize that at those prices they could be paying that “extra” money for their own mortgage on a home with enough land to keep a couple of horses in their backyard and associated expenses, and this would be money they could view to some degree as an investment. [/QUOTE]
I’d bet that if you looked back to the middle of the 20th century when middle class people started buying show horses, you’d actually find that the cost of housing did allow someone to either buy a place and DIY or decide to board a horse out, with that BO making enough. I think that’s because housing was relatively cheap and the HO-ing segment of the population was relatively rich… it being post-WWII and all.
My point is that the BO-vs.-HO in-fighting is entirely missing the point. Americans have been getting poorer since about 1970 or so. And the tentacles of poverty are finally reaching up from the deep enough to actually touch the feet of HOs. It’s a bad feeling.
I quite agree with you. It seems very localised as to whether it is possible to have a boarding-only barn as one’s sole source of income. Impossible in some places, iffy in others, possible in a few places. The importance of market research!
Very interesting thread with a lot of important viewpoints and comments. Sometimes discussions about boarding deteriorate into a BO vs HO, but this one hasn’t which is great.
I kept horses at home plus a few boarders all my life, and used to do ‘boarder math’ of X bales of hay + X bags of bedding + X for incidentals = Big Profit Boarding.
The reality, even though I was pretty experienced, is quite different now that I have invested my life savings into a commercial boarding facility. As the consensus here seems to be, my recent experience is, under the right circumstances, you can hope to break even on boarding and then have training and lessons as a profit center. And that break even generally does not cover wages for the BO and mortgage or property taxes.
Keeping horses is largely a labor of love… love of horses, love of trying to help keep our lifestyle alive, love of watching a foal canter for the first time, or watching a child learn to put a halter on a patient old pony.
That said… My next door neighbor has ‘gone to the dogs’ and shortly will not have borses on her property after 40+ years in the business, as a successful pro who offered boarding, training, lessons, took clients to shows, etc.
She realized she makes the same profit boarding a dog for three days, as boarding a horse for 30 days. And… the dog owners go away after they leave their pet! No dust in the house, no boarders doing crazy things at all hours, no leaving the hoses running, no buying toilet paper for what seems like a Mongol horde, no trouble collecting board, no suddenly unavailable bedding or skyrocketing prices on feed, no horses tied to a water pipe suddenly causing a Niagara effect, no complaints about pricing of services…
The wear and tear on her facility is infinitesimal with dogs versus horses, infrastructure costs much less, no bedding to buy (well, she buys bedspreads at the Goodwill for dogs that don’t come with their own beds) and one employee can easily care for 30+ dogs, including turning them out, cleaning, feeding, medicating, etc. There are of course some offsets, but generally, boarding dogs vs. horses is a better business model, and better lifestyle model in many ways.
Her feelings about seeing the last horse walk off the property, she admits, will be mixed. But being able to pay her bills, and in fact keep her property, make her bittersweet choice to stop boarding horses a matter of economic survival.
Again, great COTH discussion… I always learn from these!
I’m more confused. You have 16 horses in stalls who make you no profit. In the first post, you said zero. So I’m presuming that was correct, you break even with your stall boarders.
BUT
You make 150 in profit for each of your 23 field boarders. IE 3450, pure profit.
So you could get rid of your 16 stall boarders and still clear 3450, by your own figures and work “30xs less”.
Why don’t you do that???
Good discussion, excellent math!
I spent 13 years interviewing BO’s as well as owners of all types of businesses in the equine industry, and writing articles about them for large equine magazines. The barns involved were mostly show, breeding and training/lesson facilities across the US and some in Canada, and over the course of all of that time I rarely spoke to anyone who didn’t have at least one SO working off site in a good paying, non-equine related job in order to help make ends meet. Most often, the off the farm jobs or careers were in construction (the most popular), movie/television production, gas/oil, banking/investing/financier, real estate company owners, security company owners–things that actually made enough money to offset the financial losses that came from boarding, lessons, training, breeding, etc. Some of the farm related, off-site jobs included trailer sales, equipment/fencing manufacturing and sales, barn construction, large scale hay operations, feed and garden combination centers, owners of supplement companies, and veterinarians who either owned their own practices or worked/taught in large animal hospitals. It was really, really rare to meet anyone who ran a barn as their sole income. A fair amount of the interviews were conducted before the 2008 financial crash. Once the crash blew through, some of the owners wouldn’t even return my calls.
Most of the BO’s I spoke with off the record were honest and readily admitted without any prodding that they couldn’t get it done without someone working off the farm to pay the bills. Those who made their income from the barn usually found they had to run at least a three ring circus or more in order to clear the bills. Freelancers in other equine-related non-farm jobs also found themselves diversifying their skills the same way in order to make enough money. Two to three different jobs within the career seemed to be the magic number.A single-faceted business just doesn’t cut it. That’s the bird’s eye view, not the view from inside of any one barn.
A couple of things here: I live in NE and I could not afford to board in a heated barn. $1000 doesn’t even get you through the front door for that. Do I think the middle class is getting shut out? Maybe the middle and lower ends of that spectrum. The upper middle class seems to be managing to have the horse, lessons, training and showing, the boat, a second home on the shore, several vacations a year–some of which are abroad–children in high dollar prep schools and colleges, and still keep the bills paid. That may be the clientele the BO should be aiming to attract at $1,000 and up a month. The lower and middle owners in the spectrum would be better off avoiding the heated barns and going elsewhere if they wish to enjoy their horses. If no other boarding options than that exist in their areas, then yes, they are getting shut out.
The exact point I made in an earlier post.
[QUOTE=ladyj79;8284365]
I’m more confused. You have 16 horses in stalls who make you no profit. In the first post, you said zero. So I’m presuming that was correct, you break even with your stall boarders.
BUT
You make 150 in profit for each of your 23 field boarders. IE 3450, pure profit.
So you could get rid of your 16 stall boarders and still clear 3450, by your own figures and work “30xs less”.
Why don’t you do that???[/QUOTE]
Agree, if the stall boarders are costing you time and money and making you go broke; ditch have stall boarders and stick with pasture board only. You make a good profit and work a lot less.
[QUOTE=ladyj79;8284365]
I’m more confused. You have 16 horses in stalls who make you no profit. In the first post, you said zero. So I’m presuming that was correct, you break even with your stall boarders.
BUT
You make 150 in profit for each of your 23 field boarders. IE 3450, pure profit.
So you could get rid of your 16 stall boarders and still clear 3450, by your own figures and work “30xs less”.
Why don’t you do that???[/QUOTE] I would guess it is because $3450 isn’t enough income to pay the bills of the farm. OP probably got into this thinking she could make a profit on the stall boarders.
We don’t know all the background, which is her personal business. With the little she’s told us, i would sell that facility. If she is willing to live in a large room in the barn, then a better alternative would be to go and live in free housing on a private farm and take care of just a few horses. I know of places like that. Really nice places! Places where the farm owner pays for health insurance, provides living accommodations, and a decent salary. Plus, the farms are beautiful.
As an old lady living on my own private farm with no boarders, I can tell you that this is not a lifestyle that is easy once you get old. Even those barn owners that provide lessons and training will at some point find it getting too difficult to continue. I would not recommend this lifestyle to anyone. But, to each his own.
So, OP is bringing in close to 12k a month, has expenses around 9k, and is profitting across the entire business model around 25%…I think that’s better than most businesses these days. Or any days.
You work long hours and live in the barn…you want people to pay you more. Wouldn’t we all?
I guess I don’t know what to say when your business is already making a 25% profit every month.
Get rid of your two horses. That will save you time and money. Replace them with boarders, which won’t save you time, but will increase your profit margin even more.
Food for thought on profit margins:
I really appreciate everyone’s input.
My point is though, why is it acceptable for stall boarders to essentially board for free? Especially when they require a ridiculous amount of labor? When outside horses comparatively are not and you reap a profit? If a barn makes its money off of sales for example. Shouldnt stall boarders be “required” to purchase your horses so they don’t stay at your place for free?
But they aren’t “boarding for free,” they are paying your business expenses thus allowing you to operate a business making a 25% profit. If this is not the case, then as I stated previously, get rid of them and just field board.
Hell, sell this property, buy a field, just field board. Maybe live in a house?
[QUOTE=mvp;8284324]
I’d bet that if you looked back to the middle of the 20th century when middle class people started buying show horses, you’d actually find that the cost of housing did allow someone to either buy a place and DIY or decide to board a horse out, with that BO making enough. I think that’s because housing was relatively cheap and the HO-ing segment of the population was relatively rich… it being post-WWII and all.
My point is that the BO-vs.-HO in-fighting is entirely missing the point. Americans have been getting poorer since about 1970 or so. And the tentacles of poverty are finally reaching up from the deep enough to actually touch the feet of HOs. It’s a bad feeling.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you 100% on the poverty issue. But in my area, (high population, high real estate costs quickly rising to crazy) it is even now most definitely true that at the board price OP suggested - $1k, you would absolutely be able to buy a place and DIY if you added that on to say a $1k or so mortgage cost and look at local real estate listings with a little bit of land. But, $2k in housing + horse costs is still more than all but the most serious middle class and above horse owners have or would be willing to spend in my area. Of those people, you have 2 categories: those who have horses for pleasure and those who compete. OP doesn’t mention having an on site trainer, so I assume her boarders are mostly pleasure riders or those who can’t afford to board at an all inclusive training barn who trailer out for lessons. The people who have enough money to pay for a small farm and move their horses home could be in either category and OP may well have some of those in her barn right now who just aren’t motivated to move them home, but who would for sure if their board suddenly doubled and rose above the cost of having a couple of backyard horses.
Having said all this, there might be an area where $1k would attract enough pleasure and “budget” horse owners in the local economy to stay full and which would also be enough income to fully support the operating costs and barn owner’s personal living expenses with no additional income, but I’m having a hard time imagining it.
OP, I feel like you went into this endeavor with unrealistic expectations of your time and finances in running a boarding barn. This lifestyle is not an easy one to maintain. You should focus on ways to maximize your time and finances rather than wanting the entire industry to change in an unrealistic way. 16 stalled horses is a LOT for one person to take care of, and it is for sure a full time job. Maybe you could try cutting the number of horses down to a level where it’s manageable for you to take care of them on your own and have a job outside the farm to support yourself. Also look at your property - do you have a back pasture you could offer to a hay grower in a sharecrop situation? Can you find more economical suppliers with denser shavings bales or feed stores offering a bigger discount on bulk orders? Are you cleaning your stalls to maximize your time and the amount of shavings needed? Could you offer one stall free of charge in exchange for taking over the stall cleaning duties, to a boarder with lots more time than money? Should you simply tell your boarders that going forward if hay prices rise above x, there will be a hay surcharge added to their board twice a year?
[QUOTE=ladyj79;8284492]
But they aren’t “boarding for free,” they are paying your business expenses thus allowing you to operate a business making a 25% profit. If this is not the case, then as I stated previously, get rid of them and just field board.
Hell, sell this property, buy a field, just field board. Maybe live in a house?[/QUOTE] No, they aren’t boarding for free, but they are boarding at cost, which is not acceptable. OP says that the going rate in her area is $500 a month. I assume that the care at those places is not as good as what OP provides and what OP’s boarders demand. So…here are the options I see. OP raises her board to make a profit. If the boarders don’t like it, then they can go board at the lesser care place. The other option is to lower the standard of care so as to make a profit on $500/month. I can defininitely see why OP won’t do that, as I could not either.
I think that one problem is that so many horse owners do not realize how prices have gone up over the years. $1,000 isn’t what it used to be. That is not a lot of money for board, assuming one gets free choice good quality hay, good grain, and sufficient bedding. Bedding is not just about soaking up urine; it’s a place for a horse to lay down in comfort. That’s why you need a lot of it.
Owning horses is expensive.
I don’t want to go back to find the post about pasture boarding not being cheaper, but with respect to the money involved in caring for pasture/fencing, etc, aren’t those costs still there with stall boarded horses?
Several times now I’ve seen the phrase “boarders demands”. I’m truly confused. If, as a boarder, I demanded more than what was agreed upon the bo would just tell me to leave. Wouldn’t they? I don’t understand what the op or ToN mean.
If the bo says for $500 you get a stall with daytime turnout, up to 5 flakes of hay fed AM and PM (or a total of 25lbs per horse), you supply the grain and supplements and the stall is picked daily and stripped once a week. What would I, as the boarder, be able to demand? If the boarding contract is clear, how can I make the bo give me extras? I pay for extras, doesn’t everybody else? Crap! Do you mean if I turn into a complainer I’ll get a bunch of freebies?
I always thought a complainer got a thirty day notice to leave.
[QUOTE=HorseCzar;8284308]
My outdoor boarders cost about $100 a month, and they pay $250. That’s 150% profit for a 30th of the work of stall boarders. Why is it acceptable to have 30x more work for 0% profit?[/QUOTE]
Presumably, your outside boarders also get to use things like the arena or wash rack or even the new stone dust you put in the driveway. And the stalled horses get to “use” (somehow, lol) the fencing you had to replace around the pasture. And everyone probably needs to contribute the same to insurance and utilities and all.
[QUOTE=saultgirl;8284514]
I don’t want to go back to find the post about pasture boarding not being cheaper, but with respect to the money involved in caring for pasture/fencing, etc, aren’t those costs still there with stall boarded horses?[/QUOTE]
One of those was my posts. As I pointed out I had to buy MORE land for pasture boarding (we allow two acres per horse), which meant I needed MORE 4-board fencing (we have over six miles of it), which means I have more fencing to maintain, more fertilizer and grass seed to buy, more mowing equipment, pay property taxes on more property, etc. I still have barns (3 of them) run-in sheds in every pasture, two miles of water lines, etc. A stall focused operation will have much of the above but far less of it. Of course we use less in bedding each month, but these all contribute to where stall/pasture boarding, depending on HOW the pasture boarding is approached, can have similar expenses.
When my husband and I did our original planning and costing we realized it would be cheaper to buy a lot less land and build a bigger barn and focus on stall vs pasture board (we do both but more pasture boarders than stall boarders), and that over time the labor costs were going to be about even, our bedding costs lower, hay/feed the same, infrastructure costs higher for our pasture board set-up. I don’t know if I still have our comparison chart, I should see if I can dig it up. We don’t spend as much labor cleaning stalls but use far more maintaining fences, pastures, etc. You can look at my blog and see that our pastures are immaculately maintained, no over-grazed, not mowed, trashed pastures. It is a lot quicker to go down the row of stalls and put on blankets than it is to drag all the blankets out to the pasture, catch the horse, put the blanket on, etc. Hope that helps.
[QUOTE=HorseCzar;8284480]
I really appreciate everyone’s input.
My point is though, why is it acceptable for stall boarders to essentially board for free? Especially when they require a ridiculous amount of labor? When outside horses comparatively are not and you reap a profit? If a barn makes its money off of sales for example. Shouldnt stall boarders be “required” to purchase your horses so they don’t stay at your place for free?[/QUOTE]
They only board for “free” if you allow it. Base your stall rates on actual costs including labor.
I don’t get your last sentence??? If they bought a horse from you and then decide to board it there it is still costing you the same to keep if boarded. You made your profit on the sale of a horse. If it is boarded there it is just another boarder costing you exactly the same as all other boarders.
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