Why stall boarding rates need to at least double across the Midwest

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=ladyj79;8286066]
I just don’t get it, though. OP is already making a 25% profit. She clears 3500 after expenses monthly. These are her own figures. She feels she works too much. She wants to work less and make more money. And she wants to do this by price fixing.

Even if her numbers of 80hrs a week are accurate, that’s over 10$ an hour for cleaning stalls and feeding horses. I don’t know where in the midwest she is, but I can guarantee that’s over minimum wage. Also 80hrs a week is a crock unless you are actually the slowest stall cleaner in the world or have no system to accomplish any task whatsoever.

I hate to be mean or rude or whatever, but you are making a healthy profit on your business and really just come across as irrational.[/QUOTE]

“over 10$ an hour for cleaning stalls and feeding horses. I don’t know where in the midwest she is, but I can guarantee that’s over minimum wage”

So what you’re saying is people that muck stall and feed horses are really only worth paying minimum wage or a few dollars above?

Sorry, IMO and experience as both a paid “stall mucker” at one time and now the person that hires and pays to have it done. It is absurd to compare the skills needed as the same as those who “flip burgers” or run a cash register at the local shop and go store.

There’s far more to mucking a stall well and efficiently than face value. If that person wastes say a half bale of straw daily that represents an additional $730 a year per stall. Times 10 stalls, $7,300. If that same person takes 10 minutes more than necessary each day @ $10 per hour that represents an additional $62 per year per stall, times 10 stalls $620.

That person also needs to be comfortable and capable of moving horses around. The well-schooled and the young and silly. They usually have more to do than just mucking and moving horses. Holding for the blacksmith, and knowing what to do with an unruly horse. And or any other number of basic horseman skills.

There is supposed to be more to feeding than just dumping feed in the tub. I expect the person to give the horse a “once over” look for any issues and let me know if they see anything. The average burger flipper or cashier wouldn’t have a clue.

These people also have to put up with working in miserable weather. Smelling like, well, a barn all day long. The work is pretty physical at times.
These are skills IMO you are selling very short. These are skills and work conditions that IMO are worth much than $10 an hour. Which is IMO the WHOLE point of this thread.

“Also 80hrs a week is a crock unless you are actually the slowest stall cleaner in the world or have no system to accomplish any task whatsoever.”

How many barns have you worked in run or owned? If so for how many years? It is EASY to put in 80+ hrs a week running a farm. It is more like the norm than the exception. I am not talking just mucking stalls. I won’t waste my time going into this.

Personally I think anybody that has good basic horsemen skills are way under paid. I would love to pay my people more. I pay them to the best the market will allow.

I’m not disagreeing with those who keep saying, “it is what it is” because it is. That doesn’t mean the market/business is not broken.

THE BIGGEST problem, issue, hassle more than ANY thing else is finding good help. Not even really good help. Just good help/employees. If my bills are paid I don’t mind working long and hard for little to no money. But the hassle of finding and keeping good help is driving me out of “my dream”. I’m hardly the only one. I can’t blame people for not wanting to do this kind of work for $10+ an hour.

I suggest to all, read or re-read MVP’s post # 4.

[bauhaus]

It doesn’t matter how much OP or any other barn owner thinks their time is worth, if the market they’re in won’t support the board price that would both cover their expenses and also satisfy their ego. I don’t mean to sound rude, but some barn owners often sound as though they think they deserve a medal or that they’re doing their customers a favor for the privilege of allowing their horse on the property and cashing their board check every month. No barn owner that I’ve ever met opened their barn to boarders because they couldn’t get a job somewhere else. They jumped through a lot of hoops to design that lifestyle for themselves, and then some of them complain because they have to work weekends or be outside when it’s cold or occasionally be awake at 3:00 am. All of these things just go with running a barn. Charge whatever you think your facility and time and skills are worth, but the world doesn’t owe you a living if your prices are unrealistic and you can’t fill your stalls.

And, OP really didn’t give enough info to make a call on whether her time is worth more than she’s currently charging. If she has 10 years experience as a groom for a BNT and 5 years experience as a large animal vet tech, her skills as a barn owner might be worth a premium. Although, she could also have those skills but be terrible at management and routinely run out of hay or be unavailable when her customers need to contact her. All that stuff matters in terms of whether a higher cost of board is worth it to customers, but none of it ultimately matters if no customers in her area can afford to pay above what they already do, or if her competition offers the same quality care and facilities for less.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=airhorse;8286510]
What is access to a 500K or more building worth? Any decent facility around here is going to be way over 1M if not closer to 2M with land. That’s a big number to come up with every month whether stalls are full or not.[/QUOTE]

Any mortgage over $500,000 by and large for majority of people will be considered a Jumbo. The interest rate on a Jumbo mortgage is around 6% for the majority of people.

The mortgage payment on a 30 year fixed at 6% is around $6,000 per month. for a 30 stall barn that is $200 per horse before you have a beer.

[Miss_Motivation]

When I was a kid… I never knew how much math was involved in having a barn! :eek:

[gumtree]

I don’t entirely disagree. My mantra is and has been, nobody is doing me a favor writing me a check. I say the say thing to my service providers who I write checks to. I remind them from time to time that what I do and what they do are not an important in the grand scheme of things.

No one needs a horse. No one needs what I do or my services providers.

That being said I understand where the OP is coming from. My participation in this thread has little to do with the OP and their operation.

IMO much more about the topic. The big picture.

I would bet there a lot of people reading this thread and some who have commented that are the same ones that feel gives a “like” on FB when the subject of “everyone is entitled to a living wage”

The “business” of horses DOES NOT following the general rules and regs that just about anybody that runs a “real” business would put up with and deals with.

Most do because they start out with a dream, wing and an a prayer. Kind of like the restaurant business. Which has the second highest failure rate. Right behind horse business.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=bauhaus;8286570]
It doesn’t matter how much OP or any other barn owner thinks their time is worth, if the market they’re in won’t support the board price that would both cover their expenses and also satisfy their ego. I don’t mean to sound rude, but some barn owners often sound as though they think they deserve a medal or that they’re doing their customers a favor for the privilege of allowing their horse on the property and cashing their board check every month. No barn owner that I’ve ever met opened their barn to boarders because they couldn’t get a job somewhere else. They jumped through a lot of hoops to design that lifestyle for themselves, and then some of them complain because they have to work weekends or be outside when it’s cold or occasionally be awake at 3:00 am. All of these things just go with running a barn. Charge whatever you think your facility and time and skills are worth, but the world doesn’t owe you a living if your prices are unrealistic and you can’t fill your stalls.

And, OP really didn’t give enough info to make a call on whether her time is worth more than she’s currently charging. If she has 10 years experience as a groom for a BNT and 5 years experience as a large animal vet tech, her skills as a barn owner might be worth a premium. Although, she could also have those skills but be terrible at management and routinely run out of hay or be unavailable when her customers need to contact her. All that stuff matters in terms of whether a higher cost of board is worth it to customers, but none of it ultimately matters if no customers in her area can afford to pay above what they already do, or if her competition offers the same quality care and facilities for less.[/QUOTE]

I don’t entirely disagree. My mantra is and has been, nobody is doing me a favor writing me a check. I say the say thing to my service providers who I write checks to. I remind them from time to time that what I do and what they do are not an important in the grand scheme of things.

No one needs a horse. No one needs what I do or my services providers.

That being said I understand where the OP is coming from. My participation in this thread has little to do with the OP and their operation.

IMO much more about the topic. The big picture.

I would bet there a lot of people reading this thread and some who have commented that are the same ones that feel gives a “like” on FB when the subject of “everyone is entitled to a living wage”

The “business” of horses DOES NOT following the general rules and regs that just about anybody that runs a “real” business would put up with and deals with.

Most do because they start out with a dream, wing and an a prayer. Kind of like the restaurant business. Which has the second highest failure rate. Right behind horse business.

[gumtree]

In the TB business there is an old saying.

How do you make a million in the horse business?

Start with two.

[js]

[QUOTE=gumtree;8286606]
In the TB business there is an old saying.

How do you make a million in the horse business?

Start with two.[/QUOTE]

My vet always said: You know how to make a millionaire? Sell a billionaire horses.

[HorseCzar]

I’m not saying I can’t raise rates. I’m saying why is no profit off stall boarding an acceptable standard? It’s unsustainable in the long run.

Why do I want profit so bad? Because I don’t have time to have another job outside of the barn.

My issue is not just with my barn, it’s with the accepted standard that will collapse on itself in the long run.

What I’m seeing on this thread is now those who run barns and understand what I’m saying, and those that don’t.

[IPEsq]

I don’t think that’s the standard at all. What is the standard is whatever dollar amount per month your local market dictates. If no one wants to pay over $500/month in your area for the amenities and services you offer, then the problem is that your barn is too expensive to make it in your area without an adjustment to your business plan. Here, land is super expensive, and while there are plenty of low dollar boarding situations (in varying levels of disrepair), there are some that cost over $500/mo for straight board (no training, etc.), and sometimes with those I wonder how they make it, unless they’ve got a good income stream going outside of the barn and bought the place a long time ago when it was semi-affordable land. I don’t wonder at all why they can’t keep good staff around.

[Vindicated]

Alrighty then.
What state are you in?
Are you near any large cities?
Do you have an indoor?
Can you get a trainer in?
Are you skilled enough to teach/train?

Several posters have answered your question-THE MARKET WON’T ALLOW IT.

And no, it will not collapse in on it’s self. It has not in the many decades I have been participating. Or the many decades before that.

Yes, we all GET what you are saying.
However, I don’t get why you are beating a dead horse. You have said that you are at the top scale for you area & amenities.

What do you want us to say?
Yes, by all means. Let’s all raise our rates so that no one can afford horses?

Really? Because that is what would happen. Then where would you be?

Boarding for most people does 1 of 2 things: Facilitates making money selling, training, ect. or covers the expenses for personal horses (Profit) Also, I know of several (sub-par by my standards) Boarding only facilities that do seem to turn enough of a profit to stay open & feed/house the owners.

I recommend the you either allow us to help you trim the fat. OR do it yourself. If you are paying yourself, then find someone you can trust to run the farm 8-5 and do the “heavy lifting” and you get a paying job, you sound burnt out.

Before you say anything: Yes, I have plenty of experience running a successful 30 horse enterprise. I failed because I hate people. Not because I cannot make money.

[Casey09]

[QUOTE=PaperPony;8286507]
I know this will be unpopular, but it seems to me that many boarders are of the opinion that it would be WRONG for a person to make money off boarding, and the places that they board should be run just because the person enjoys doing the work so much that they are willing to do it for free and often at a great personal or financial sacrifice to the rest of their lives.[/QUOTE]

I don’t feel that way at all. Everyone that has a business wants to make a profit. Boarding barns are businesses just like any other business.
However, in a free market, customers will compare options and choose based on what best fits their needs. If board costs suddenly dramatically increased across the board, some customers would be priced entirely out of horses. I’m not saying that is desirable or undesirable, but a natural consequence of that would be that some barns would simply have to shut their doors because there would be fewer customers to pay those higher rates.
It is like any other business, and being a business owner is hard. I think that if OP is unhappy with the current status quo, there are really two choices: raise the rates for stall board (with the understanding that some of the current boarders might choose a different barn out of necessity or because they don’t feel that the rates are competitive), or make changes to the current business model to decrease costs (such as perhaps no longer heating the barn).
I think that horse ownership will probably dwindle. At least in my area, I see more young girls involved in sports and fewer in horses. The more expensive labor becomes, the harder it will be to pay someone else to care for a horse. When horse ownership dwindles, there will be fewer customers available and fewer boarding barns. I find it sad and depressing, but that is the order of things.

[briddygirl]

I run a barn in Leesburg, where I rent the barn and fields. I have 4 horses of my own, I have 4 boarders with 7 horses. I charge $600 per month (and I give a break to the boarders with 2 horses, about $50 less). The summer months are fine b/c I’m not buying hay, and I break even. The winter I’m losing money b/c of hay costs…grain is expensive, but I’ve done the best I can without losing quality. I pay a pretty pricey rent, as well…probably most of the farm owners mortgage. I do not have an indoor, and I have no equipment of my own b/c I cannot get ahead enough to purchase even a small tractor! I hire a guy to come cut fields a couple times per season…I try to keep on top of manure removal, and pay someone to pick up. This is definitely not a money maker, and it’s more of a money loser in reality – we do some limited lessons, but it is not enough to make ends meet…winter time is tough b/c of weather, and no one wants lessons when it’s freezing out! I am totally frustrated and sometimes wonder why I am doing it at all…I do love my horses, but sometimes I just wish I had my own little barn for my own and I’d care for them just as easily and perhaps with me not working my butt off as much it would be better (I have to hire someone to help feed/clean…which is really killing my bank account).

[eastendjumper]

[QUOTE=gumtree;8286575]
Any mortgage over $500,000 by and large for majority of people will be considered a Jumbo. The interest rate on a Jumbo mortgage is around 6% for the majority of people.

The mortgage payment on a 30 year fixed at 6% is around $6,000 per month. for a 30 stall barn that is $200 per horse before you have a beer.[/QUOTE]

Are you sure about theses numbers? 6% on a 1,000,000 mortgage would be closer to $3000 a month? Panicking a bit as we are gong to be applying for a big loan at similar interest rates and want to be sure I’m calculating correctly!

I loved your post #161!

Good, competent barn managers have put more time and money into their experience and education than folks with masters degrees. They should be absolutely paid their worth IF THEY ARE GOOD. Weed out the managers who are not, just like in any other career, slim down the number of boarding barns, and pay the good managers a more derserving salary. The problem is a lot of managers out there should not be managing, but they can keep on because they set prices into a cheaper range.

[ToN_Farm]

[QUOTE=eastendjumper;8286818]
Are you sure about theses numbers? 6% on a 1,000,000 mortgage would be closer to $3000 a month? Panicking a bit as we are gong to be applying for a big loan at similar interest rates and want to be sure I’m calculating correctly!
[/QUOTE] A million mortgage for 30 years at 6% would be $6000 a month and that does not include real estate taxes.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=HorseCzar;8286636]
I’m not saying I can’t raise rates. I’m saying why is no profit off stall boarding an acceptable standard? It’s unsustainable in the long run. [/QUOTE]

You have asked the question three times now, so I’ll apply myself and tell you what I think the causes are.

1. The cost of raw materials and labor is high.

I’ll take onthebit at her word that well-run pasture is as expensive to build and maintain.

2. The people who want stall board also need enough land and fencing to have turnout. Plus they want facilities like arenas or, perhaps, a premium location that lets the hack to a trail head. And unlike the person who sent a horse out for rehab or retirement, these folks need their barn to be within commuting distances to a major city where they can earn enough to afford a horse.

All this explains why stalled horses generally are so unprofitable. But it doesn’t explain the profit gap on your one farm, OP. That is true assuming your pasture boarders also pay their share of the arena and stone dust and hot water bill and all.

3. The biggy-- your stall rates are held down by your local market’s willingness to pay. And that’s held down by the competing barns who have something else subsidizing the boarding. That could be anything from no mortgage to another source of income, to a lesson or training operation.

I find that last cause the saddest, most wrong, worst. The main reason I hate it is because the people who are charging “loss leader” style board at a training barn are effectively making HO-ing unaffordable to those who don’t want to also purchase training. I do appreciate that they are doing what they need to do to get clients that can afford to pay them board and training. They are covering their nut via both sources of income. But that means the barn down the road who doesn’t have training subsidizing the cost of care is outta luck.

Now if you are me-- you grew up HOing and don’t want/need a full training program but do want high quality care, you can’t buy that even if you were willing to pay for it. The rest of the market has caused non-training BOs to tailor their facilities and services to the people who don’t want to pay for things like frequent arena grooming or deeper bedding or superior hay. Rather, they just want to hang on to their horses without breaking the bank.

[PaperPony]

[QUOTE=eastendjumper;8286818]
Are you sure about theses numbers? 6% on a 1,000,000 mortgage would be closer to $3000 a month? Panicking a bit as we are gong to be applying for a big loan at similar interest rates and want to be sure I’m calculating correctly!

I loved your post #161!

Good, competent barn managers have put more time and money into their experience and education than folks with masters degrees. They should be absolutely paid their worth IF THEY ARE GOOD. Weed out the managers who are not, just like in any other career, slim down the number of boarding barns, and pay the good managers a more derserving salary. The problem is a lot of managers out there should not be managing, but they can keep on because they set prices into a cheaper range.[/QUOTE]

$280,000 mortgage at 3.85% interest rate is $1400/month AND $5,000 in cash closing costs.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Vindicated;8286760]

And no, it will not collapse in on it’s self. It has not in the many decades I have been participating. Or the many decades before that.[/QUOTE]

I think boarding is collapsing in on itself… slowly.

What do you count as time zero… the ideal Prelapsarian state when horses had all they needed and the middle class could pay for that? As I stated above, I’d say this was the rich 1950s or 1960s.

I think everyone could do some Then vs. Now comparisons that will also have some confounding variables like regional differences. I’m sure my comparison is screwed up by this, too, but here’s what I see.

When I was a kid in 1980s/90s NorCal, the average bedding used in a stall was much thicker than it is now. Stall mats were not everywhere and those make a difference. But I never thought I would see that Armageddon-like day when people thought that once could use no bedding at all or, bedding was just put in one corner to absorb pee. The horse could sleep on those damp-with-pee/poop mats; a barn could smell like ammonia when you walked in in the morning.

Limiting the amount of hay or type of hay included in board wasn’t normal. Same goes for grain. Those were included in the price. (Granted, we didn’t have the enormous range of grains/pelleted feed and supplements you can feed now.)

Stalls were cleaned 7 days a week.

Co-op barns (and working off board by adults and part-leasing) weren’t common.

The half-leasing of relatively high-quality horses has become A Thing only since the 2008 recession so far as I can tell. And people are willing to half-lease horses that aren’t finished. It seems weird to me. But I’m positive it’s a symptom of everyone getting poorer and finding a way to stave off the complete selling-off of the horse. If you can’t afford the money (or time) to keep the horse going, even without lessons or a trainer, you really have cut things to the bone and half to find a half leasor or bail all together.

Adults who rode as kids perhaps took time off while they were in college. But they weren’t waiting a full 15 years to get career and family launched before having the resources to get back into riding. When they do get back, a good portion of them want something different than what they did as showing juniors. Fifteen years is a long time to wait and stay off a horse.

And I will say that when I lived in Central NY vs. Westchester County NY, you could see the effects of the local economies. Central NY hadn’t had a lot of money for a good 30 years or so. The depth of horsemanship was nothing to write home about. Down in Westchester County, however, board was expensive but you just about invariably found good hay, bedding, fencing, footing and barn workers who knew horses pretty well. I’m convinced that that’s an effect of long-term wealth in an area that supports the maintenance of high standards for horse keeping.

[kdow]

[QUOTE=PaperPony;8286507]
I know this will be unpopular, but it seems to me that many boarders are of the opinion that it would be WRONG for a person to make money off boarding, and the places that they board should be run just because the person enjoys doing the work so much that they are willing to do it for free and often at a great personal or financial sacrifice to the rest of their lives.[/QUOTE]

No, I’m perfectly fine with someone making enough money off boarding to live on, although I do think people need to be realistic about what that probably means - by all the numbers discussed, it isn’t a business which is going to make anyone rich no matter how you go about it, because the market just isn’t there to pay super high board rates in large numbers. But if you can make it work out so that you’re providing good care and can cover your living expenses and health insurance and have a little spending money left over and I can afford whatever you’re asking in board, I’m not going to be upset someone is making a living taking care of my horse. (It actually seems like it’d be a good thing, as a business that only remains financially functional as long as it’s subsidized by some other income or a spouse is a business that is going to fall apart as soon as that extra funding goes away. Which sucks for the BO and sucks for me because I have to find another place to keep my horse.)

My concern is explicitly about the level of resentment being expressed. I get people have bad days, but the OP sounds really and truly fed up and deeply unhappy about the amount of profit her stall boarders aren’t bringing in. And in general, people who are that unhappy and have that much resentment towards a job are people who do not do the job as well as it could be done. Since my horse’s wellbeing depends on how well a BO is doing the job, I would not want to board with one who was likely to not be doing the job well.

[airhorse]

@eastendjumper;8286818

Panicking a bit as we are gong to be applying for a big loan at similar interest rates and want to be sure I’m calculating correctly!

And be prepared to put a ton down as farms are appraising at about 40 cents on the dollar these days.