Will this foal be black or dk. bay/Brown?

[sid]

[QUOTE=showhorsegallery;8247922]
I am wondering the same exact thing about my foal. Hoping he’s black but he’s so sunburned it’s impossible to tell. For the first couple of weeks he just looked black as night. Now he looks like a brown or bay.

All pictures are true to how he looked in person

1 Day Old - Looks Black
http://tinyurl.com/roman-1-day

6 Days Old - Looks Black
http://tinyurl.com/roman-6-days-old
http://tinyurl.com/roman-6-days-old2

2 Weeks Old - Looks Black
http://tinyurl.com/roman-is-2-weeks

3 Months Old - Looks Dark Bay
http://tinyurl.com/roman-3-months-old

4 Months Old - Looks 100% Like a Bay
http://tinyurl.com/roman-4-months-old[/QUOTE]

I think the jury is still out. My black foals sort of looked like this at 7 months after the summer sun.

As yearlings in Spring, they shed out black…interestingly both of them “non-fading” blacks. Never bleached out again.

[JB]

Showhorse - is the sire a Friesian by chance? I ask because while my first thought was indeed black-turning-gray because of how BLACK he was, since you say gray is not an option, then the Friesian breed is also known to commonly produce black foals that are black at birth, far more often than other breed. Far.

He IS black, no doubt. His “bay” stages are very common for the foal coat bleaching process.

[drawstraws]

I’m no expert but his baby color and changes/shedding look exactly like my black gelding (now 11 years old) so that’s my vote also. I finally sent hair in to UC Davis for testing because I was tired of the “Is he black or brown/bay?” guessing game and mine’s definitely black. He’s such an icky orange/brown in the summer when he fades but goes right back to rich black if he’s body clipped before winter and when he sheds out his winter hair in the spring. No brown in his muzzle, flanks, etc.

[Crockpot]

Based on the early pictures of that mousey color, I vote black.

ditto

[showhorsegallery]

[QUOTE=JB;8248144]
Showhorse - is the sire a Friesian by chance? I ask because while my first thought was indeed black-turning-gray because of how BLACK he was, since you say gray is not an option, then the Friesian breed is also known to commonly produce black foals that are black at birth, far more often than other breed. Far.

He IS black, no doubt. His “bay” stages are very common for the foal coat bleaching process.[/QUOTE]

He’s 3/4 Appaloosa and 1/Saddlebred. Mom is a chestnut snowflake and Dad is Wapuzzan (www.wapuzzan.com) a black snowcap. I did try to look on Google images for what 4 month old Friesians look because I had a similar thought, that they’re so black maybe they would be a good comparison for foal coat phases. But I couldn’t find anything helpful.

I do hope he ends up black. I had my heart set on spots and/or loud white markings, black and a girl. Ha. One out of three would be nice.

[showhorsegallery]

[QUOTE=sid;8248101]
I think the jury is still out. My black foals sort of looked like this at 7 months after the summer sun.

As yearlings in Spring, they shed out black…interestingly both of them “non-fading” blacks. Never bleached out again. :)[/QUOTE]

Oh that would be nice. Black and non-fading. Wonder if that’s possible in Florida

[JB]

He’s definitely black, no question. It does make me wonder if it’s appy characteristics that have blackened him so much.

[showhorsegallery]

[QUOTE=JB;8248386]
He’s definitely black, no question. It does make me wonder if it’s appy characteristics that have blackened him so much.[/QUOTE]

Could be. A lot of the other babies by the some sire that are black look insanely black at birth too.

[JB]

Ah, so maybe the saturation is coming from the sire then. That happens too, and maybe it’s got nothing to do with the appy genetics

[sid]

[QUOTE=showhorsegallery;8248371]
Oh that would be nice. Black and non-fading. Wonder if that’s possible in Florida ;)[/QUOTE]

I’m in Virginia…the sun is just as bright here. :lol:

[epowers]

It’s really not THAT crazy strange for a black foal to be born black even without any modifiers, but Lp is very well known to contribute to an adult-shade foal coat.

The OP foal is black, but don’t be shocked if he doesn’t SEEM black again until he turns 2! Black youngsters can go through some super weird fading and coat patterns. They often fade drastically, then shed out to a uniform dark chocolate color, then fade drastically again, and finally get a more mature coat in their two year old year and suddenly look black again.

[Go_Fish]

I’m going to go out on a limb and say brown. However, my mare looked exactly like this as a weanling. She now has a black body that dapples gold, black legs, and a brown muzzle. She’s also brown behind the elbows and between her back legs. So, technically, she’s a brown.

True blacks, in my opinion, need to have a black muzzle with no brown anywhere, unless sun bleached, of course. Interestingly, the two true black horses I owned did not sun bleach. The above mare does not sun bleach, either.

[epowers]

Plenty of blacks bleach drastically, not just from sun, but from things like sweat and nutrition, and as foals and yearlings especially this can certainly mean heavy fading on the face, including muzzle and around the eyes. I’ve never in my life seen a brown horse born looking exactly like a normal black foal, without any brown on the body; even the very dark browns are born with the brown nose, so if you have an example you could share that would be fascinating.

[half_pass1]

Our 2014 filly was born mouse grey, from a black sire and dam. She is definitely black.

3 days:
https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t31.0-8/1899439_10151882997896653_518193420_o.jpg

2 months:
https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10295759_10151972295386653_3409153220368662341_n.jpg?oh=0dffef6b58c95d30550d717ea534b1c8&oe=563C9F2A

5 months:
https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10649838_10152150118796653_5791397793699792715_n.jpg?oh=e90e2cbd178d0192c408563363ddaa43&oe=563C4E68

1 year, 5 months, very sun bleached:
https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11058132_10152807004856653_6689864609705256582_n.jpg?oh=e0034f511818a5171d5831af245577f6&oe=5641330A

However, this filly I am not sure about. Dam is very dark brown, sire is chestnut.

1 day old:
https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/11150181_10152603189466653_8716783448050739771_n.jpg?oh=6969d6af46a2f25a148d3e389f333ba7&oe=5681832B

6 weeks:
https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/l/t1.0-9/11060874_10152667998421653_800070522919599107_n.jpg?oh=c78cf4faca44d81995ab1d1259554270&oe=5680477D

4 months:
https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/11831767_10152807003176653_3206454861523858558_n.jpg?oh=bdb8d30d8f45321aef6133e5c7c9fb73&oe=5642B583
https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/11781777_10152807003716653_8065087446195961266_n.jpg?oh=3320e69e06f353adc2677a06aa100171&oe=568406AE

Thoughts?

[JB]

Interesting half*pass! I’m leaning towards very dark brown. I can’t decide if in the 1 day old pic I see a hint of brown at her muzzle.

It’s easy to say “black” without thinking in that picture, but there’s a taupe-y tone to the color which also makes me lean towards brown.

The older pictures also make me think brown, especially since the freshly exposed hair looks so chocolate, in combination with the above 2 things.

You could easily solve the mystery by doing an Agouti test aa means she’s black and anything else means brown

[epowers]

[QUOTE=half*pass;8265975]
Our 2014 filly was born mouse grey, from a black sire and dam. She is definitely black.

3 days:
https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t31.0-8/1899439_10151882997896653_518193420_o.jpg

2 months:
https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10295759_10151972295386653_3409153220368662341_n.jpg?oh=0dffef6b58c95d30550d717ea534b1c8&oe=563C9F2A

5 months:
https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10649838_10152150118796653_5791397793699792715_n.jpg?oh=e90e2cbd178d0192c408563363ddaa43&oe=563C4E68

1 year, 5 months, very sun bleached:
https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11058132_10152807004856653_6689864609705256582_n.jpg?oh=e0034f511818a5171d5831af245577f6&oe=5641330A

However, this filly I am not sure about. Dam is very dark brown, sire is chestnut.

1 day old:
https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/11150181_10152603189466653_8716783448050739771_n.jpg?oh=6969d6af46a2f25a148d3e389f333ba7&oe=5681832B

6 weeks:
https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/l/t1.0-9/11060874_10152667998421653_800070522919599107_n.jpg?oh=c78cf4faca44d81995ab1d1259554270&oe=5680477D

4 months:
https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/11831767_10152807003176653_3206454861523858558_n.jpg?oh=bdb8d30d8f45321aef6133e5c7c9fb73&oe=5642B583
https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/11781777_10152807003716653_8065087446195961266_n.jpg?oh=3320e69e06f353adc2677a06aa100171&oe=568406AE

Thoughts?[/QUOTE]

I would bet both are black. Browns are typically born either a very dark adult-shade seal brown, or looking quite close to bay.

[half_pass1]

Here she is at 2 weeks old:
https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10433263_10152634004186653_7287972351962104163_n.jpg?oh=454b2efc294a7b49a5e7eeb6958096a6&oe=5683DE4B

Either way, I’m not concerned enough to know what colour she genetically is to do a test! This is only our second year with foals so it’s really interesting seeing all these other foals and watching them change colour.

[JB]

That picture also makes me think dark, seal brown, like mom. The purple undertone to the color is common with the really dark brown foals (adults too, especially when put against a true black)

[JB]

You can see the undertone difference between brown and black
https://scontent-atl1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/398012_2569323628978_663288570_n.jpg?oh=5467ce2d4c6240f2d5378a227ccea4b3&oe=564D6B22

[sid]

“Seal brown” is very interesting. I’ve had two.

They look like they might be black as babies, but no. Very close to black. But my babies that wound up seal did not have the tell tale mousy gray legs when they were born were born. The did go through “I’m going to be a bay” their yearling year, but by 2 they were indeed blacks. Non-fading blacks, at that.

Fun to wait and see.