Won't extend hind leg back for shoer; I need a direction, help, options? UPDATE POST 48

[Obsidian_Fire]

I’ve been having increasing difficulty with my mare’s hind legs - specifically the left hind. She’s a 7-y/o OTTB, off track for 3 years, with 2 of those in letdown as a mommy. She has something going on in her lower lumbar/SI but I cannot get the vets to listen to me, other than to tell me to spring for a bone scan.

Acupuncture helps. So are carrot stretches. But it is not enough. I had a good PPE, and her lower lumbar are fused, the rest of her spine is fine, her ROM is WNL. She tends to be tense (tentative? uncertain?) about using her back but thru good exercises we are working thru that and it’s gotten hugely better.

BUT. When you lift her left hind, she will dance around trying to get it away from you, fall over on her right hind (like she can’t stand on it). After a few mins of ‘yes give it to me’, she will finally hold it for you - until you try to extend it backward. Then, you might get 5 seconds and she’s jerking it back.

Yesterday, even after spending the last 6 weeks dedicatedly working on this, farrier gave up on her and said he would no longer attempt to put hind shoes on her and next time he sees her he wants her drugged (Domorsedan) - which I have no real problem with - other than getting a vet to actually prescribe it.

I’ve had 2 appts with top tier lameness vets, to no avail. Last one said to take her home and break her, bring her back when there was something to block. Uh, no.

The only bones I’ve not radiographed are her neck, and ones you can’t get on x-ray. Everything else I did, and they are all clean. Even stifles.

I had a thought, and if someone is well versed in spinal movement please answer me: When the leg comes forward, the spine rounds up - which opens the vertebrae. So when the leg goes back, do the vertebrae move the opposite way? I am wondering if extending her leg back causes some kind of pinching in the lower lumbar where she’s fused at.

She also does not want the leg brought outwards, especially if you lift it too high (which farriers always want to do).

We’ve done a neuro exam, that was the first thing vets did, it was fine. Given the decent films I’m suspicious of soft tissue “something” - it would be old but that doesn’t mean it can’t flare up again given the right circumstances.

I don’t know where I should go from here. I am suspicious that an SI injection would help, given how much relief she seems to get from acupuncture.

Ideas anyone?? TIA.

[khall]

What about PSSM?

[JB]

Has she had chiro work done? Are you sure the issue is her back/SI and not her stifle (soft tissue)?

What exercises do you think have helped her work over her back? Do you incorporate backing?

Got pics of her hind feet? I ask because if she’s heading into negative P3 territory that can anger everything up the leg and into the hips and back.

[DoubleDown]

Have you given bute a few hours prior to the farrier appointment? Won’t fix the problem, but may make her comfortable enough to get through the appointment. My older mare gets a gram in the morning before her appointment, makes a world of difference with her achy hocks. She normally jerks her leg away, and had a hard time holding it up cocked for him to work on.

[Scribbler]

Have you had any body work done on her? Have you done any manual leg stretches? I would get a very good massage person in and learn some stretches you can do. Start tiny.

This could all be in the muscles as much as in the bones or joints.

And try Bute or perhaps Banamine as a muscle relaxant. Test it out ahead of time. Do your stretches to see range of motion. Administer drug. Do streteches after drug takes effect. Judge results. Dont wait until vet appointment.

You could also see if she likes to lean on something. My old horse started dancing away, farrier quit, new farrier let her lean against the truck and all was well. These were the days before diagnostics at least on kids horses.

[Obsidian_Fire]

@JB @Scribbler and everyone else: Yes to chiro. Yes to Bodyworker (Masterson Method).

Carrot stretches - right between the front legs, gets her to open up her whole spine and lift her wither area too. Also scritches on her butt, causing her to tuck it.

Stifle xrays are clean but have not ultrasounded. Chiro thinks UPF (she is also a DVM), I don’t disagree.

Backing up, in hand and under saddle. Lunging with side reins and a theraband around her haunches. Pole work but not daily. Encouraging “peanut rolling” under saddle IF she stays in front of my leg.

Did a round of Adequan and saw zero difference.

Muscles, yes. Acupuncture is making a big difference on this. However, muscles generally get tight and stay that way when they are protecting something else. In her case, the “something else” happened long before I got her and was never properly tended to. Even tho she had plenty of let down time and work with me has been very slow and careful, I surmise that whatever compensation she developed as a result of injury now has a mind of its own…

She won’t lean on anything (we’ve tried that)(basically what she wants is for us to leave that leg alone!) and as for bute, this is what happened: Farrier was supposed to be out Tuesday morning. So Monday night I bute’d her and Tuesday AM. I got her out of her stall in plenty of time to stretch her legs and I spent time working with her lifting that leg and getting over the fussy. Appt time comes and goes. I text farrier - it’s not like him to be late - and he apparently forgot us! So he shows up Weds afternoon. Of course she’s not buted at this time (I didn’t know what time he’d be coming!) and of course she’s not “warmed up” for him ahead of time, so yeah, she was a bitch and he wasn’t happy with either of us.

So there ya go.

[Obsidian_Fire]

@JB, look at the pics in this link: http://www.thefarrierypractice.com/partners/david-nicholls/david-nicholls-articles/negative-plane-p3-syndrome

This horses’ hoof very much resembles how my mare wants to grow that left hind. Kind of a weird bulge-y shape.

[Scribbler]

That’s what people call a bull nose hoof. That particular website doesn’t have a really clear discussion of it. It’s a variety of capsule displacement I think. Perhaps you need xrays to see where the coffin bone is and a therapeutic farrier who can address it?

By stretches I meant manual stretches, lifting and stretching that hind leg up and out. By massage I meant someone who does real deep tissue massage for an hour. I don’t know if your massage therapist does that.

[PeteyPie]

Hope you figure it out. My mare started having the same problem but we were able to work through it. Vet said to do what you tried to do, Bute the night before and morning of appointment. She was having problems with her right front hoof and also started having signs of DSLD/ESPA (sp?), but she was much older than your horse. The farrier was really good about stretching it gently several times before asking her to leave it back. I thought it was arthritis in her stifle but I don’t know where I got that idea.

Good luck and keep us posted!

[Marla_100]

Here’s an article that discusses the problem with your horse’s hoof and what causes it and hopefully correction.

IME, many farriers do not have the skills or knowledge to correct this problem. You may need to search around

or check with your vet to find a qualified farrier. Also if you suspect additional stifle problems, keeping them outside

moving around rather than being stalled is much better for them.

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/negative-palmar-angle-syndrome-racing-horses?id=&pageID=1&sk=&date=

[Marla_100]

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/negative-palmar-angle-syndrome-racing-horses?id=&pageID=1&sk=&date=

An article discussing your horse’s hoof problem above. You may need to check around for a qualified farrier to

correct this problem. Also if you suspect stifle problems, keeping them out and moving around is much better

for them than being stalled. The continuous movement tends to help stifles.

[IPEsq]

Have you evaluated the other leg? Sometimes it’s not the one you are picking up but the other one one they don’t want to stand on.

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

I have a 16yo TB gelding living out 24x7 at present. He has always had difficulty holding up his hind legs for the farrier. The problem is bilateral, but the right hind is significantly harder for him than left. The difficulty has gotten worse with age and since he has been out of regular work. Over the course of this horse’s working life (age approximately 4-12), his hind end movement never seemed to match the front, he probably seldom if ever really worked through his back (though he was a good faker), and he probably spent time in saddles that didn’t fit as well as they should have. At some point, we became suspicious that something high up (pelvis, SI, back) might be the true origin of his issues though have never imaged there. Hocks and stifles have been imaged and injected at various times. There are some shivers-like symptoms at times too. I’ve wondered about neuro stuff, but the horse absolutely knows where his feet are and has no trouble backing up. I’ve also done PSSM diets but never diagnostics in that area.

For most of the time since we bought this horse in 2006, he has been shod all around. For most of the time we have owned him, I have dreaded farrier appointments.

First farrier was wonderful and patient and had a special affinity for TBs. For my horse, she liked to schedule separate appointments for fronts and hinds, and she scheduled my horse for early in the day when both were fresher. Unfortunately, she retired.

The guy she passed us off to was a very good farrier, but he never liked that the horse didn’t “hold up” his part of the bargain. I spent years making special efforts to lunge or ride just before appointments (as well as giving bute night before and morning of) to loosen the horse up. I never really felt like those things made much difference, but the farrier did, so I kept doing them - until I moved the horse (still in same local area), and the farrier took that opportunity to drop us.

Went through another farrier team - the senior member of the team liked to use a piece of baling twine instead of a lip chain - ran it through the halter and under the upper lip to produce a kind of a chain-like effect without the chain. The twine in combination with bute and patience and not leaving the most difficult leg for last worked well enough. Then senior member of team moved on to other pursuits, and junior member just wasn’t skilled enough. Pulled hind shoes and started with a new farrier about the same time the horse was turned out.

Current farrier has done a great job with the fronts which need to remain shod. Hinds have been a different story. They took a beating with the horse living out full time - chipped and cracked. The further we went into winter, the harder it seemed for the horse to even lift the hinds for me to scrape at them with a hoof pick. As a result, we went through several shoe/trim cycles where we didn’t even try to get a trim on them or clean them up. Last couple of cycles we have been back to warm weather, I have done the bute routine prior, and farrier has been successful with bringing the hinds forward onto a stand for trimming and rasping. Also helps to not leave the RH for last and put a chain on the lip for the hind legs.

I know I’ve written a book here, but I hope a few of the things we’ve tried to make trimming/shoeing easier might be helpful in the short term even if they don’t address the underlying problem.

What is your plan is for this mare - is she a project that you are hoping to eventually sell? A personal competition horse? With the benefit of hindsight, I would say do whatever it takes to get to the bottom of what is going on now while the horse is still young and full of potential. Short of the bone scan, have you asked your vets about ultrasound for any of the possible problem areas? And if they don’t think ultrasound would yield any useful diagnostic info, I’d say scrape together your pennies and do the bone scan and try to get a definitive diagnosis.

[Obsidian_Fire]

@JB - pics:
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[Obsidian_Fire]

@Groom&Taxi - the mare is just my own personal horse. I bought her to replace my aged TB gelding. Goal is just whatever level dressage she’s capable of and trails.

Thanks for your “novel” - I am open ears about all this stuff.

ETA: but of course I’d like her to stay sound as long as possible…

[tarynls]

Coordinate next farrier appt so the vet is there too. Make sure vet knows farrier will be there & farrier knows vet will be there. Ask vet to bring X-ray machine (I’d be really surprised if she does not have a negative palmar angle based on those photos, but you’ll need X-ray to confirm). If vet sees how difficult your horse is for the farrier, that might open their eyes as far as being willing to dig a little deeper to figure out how to deal with this. At least you shouldn’t have a problem getting sedation from the vet after that.

[mvp]

OP, did you take her to someone high-end like Mark Revenaugh?

[EventerAJ]

I got a 5yo off the track who was messed up behind, could not hold up his left hind to pick it out-- much less trim it. It was not being a brat; he truly was uncomfortable and would nearly fall down if you insisted he raise the foot above 12". You could pull the foot forward, as if to rasp from the top, but not behind him over your knee.

I had an excellent chiro work on him and it made a HUGE difference. There was a loud POP when she worked on his hip, and he started yawning and chewing. Since then, he is almost normal to trim his left hind. My husband always thought chiro was a waste of money, until he saw the big change in this horse.

[Obsidian_Fire]

@mvp

OP, did you take her to someone high-end like Mark Revenaugh?

Yes - TWICE. You know what I got out of it? Take her home and break her, then bring her back so I have something to block.

:mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Obsidian_Fire]

@tarynls

Coordinate next farrier appt so the vet is there too. Make sure vet knows farrier will be there & farrier knows vet will be there. Ask vet to bring X-ray machine (I’d be really surprised if she does not have a negative palmar angle based on those photos, but you’ll need X-ray to confirm). If vet sees how difficult your horse is for the farrier, that might open their eyes as far as being willing to dig a little deeper to figure out how to deal with this. At least you shouldn’t have a problem getting sedation from the vet after that.

I think this is a good idea.

It would go down in history as the most expensive farrier appointment I’ve ever had too. :lol:

I remembered during the night that one of our vet clinics hosts a ‘farriers forum’ I believe once a month. I am going to reach out to them for more information.

I think both hind feet need to be filmed and then I think she needs to be shod appropriately.

@EventerAJ - I’ve had regular chiro but it’s never as dramatic as what you describe. I wish it was.